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Thread: Gene Associated With Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis Identified

  1. #31
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    No one

    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    That was my point - why would Dingo feel guilty about the possibility of passing on a disease that noone could know that he had (if, in fact, that's how it works).
    This is off topic and not meant as an attack on anyone, so please don't take it that way. It's just a pet peeve of mine, and it jumps out at me every time I see it: There is no such word as "noone." I see that and I read "noon" or "noooooone." : 0 ) It is always two separate words, "no one." Always.

    I didn't know it was a common error until I started reading comments on the Internet. Apparently, outside the U.S. it's common and acceptable to hyphenate it, as in "no-one" but I've never seen that. See the link below.

    http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...one_no_one.htm

    Again, nothing personal. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. I have no idea why it irks me so! LOL
    Age 44 (now 48). "Mild" curve (and pain) at age 16.
    No x-ray, brace or followup as a teen.
    Told curve wouldn't progress or need treatment.
    Chiropractor said I had a 22-degree TL curve, at age 20.
    Non-SRS surgeon said curve is 46 to 51 degrees, at age 44.
    SRS surgeon thinks curve is 42-degrees thoracic, 39-degrees lumbar, age 44.
    Also have bilateral pars defect at L5.
    Considering surgery due to pain.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    That's just rude. People are allowed their own opinions, which YOU are not innocent of yourself. Remember your thread on Official Western Medicine, which you never defined, aimed specifically at Pooka1? Let's keep it nice.
    To react against people behaving as really bad people is not bad, is necessary, in fact is a must. And certainly if those persons are not as seems to be, they may reconsider and change their wrong behavior.. otherwise is better to not see them any more. This is not a political forum, people (as is supposed to be) are here to solve a serious problem and that people of course are a serious obstacle. If the comment of this SpiderPug not seems a good example for you, certainly we are really very very different, so it has not sense we talk never more about these issues.

    And certainly not only people supporting that kind of people are accomplices but also who not react against them. That’s why I opened the thread you refers as I clearly said there , but as I said you many times, it seems you never understand anything about it.. anyway I was was willing to forget our quarrels there. It seems is not your case. Ok.. if it's what you want..
    Are you accusing me about not aimed specifically at Pooka1???.. do you really believe that? I cannot say it may surprise me..

  3. #33
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    [QUOTE=hdugger;150011]
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Out of curiosity, what field of science? /QUOTE]

    It was a joke reference to Dr. Science who, at the end of every "Ask Dr. Science" episode, would repeat that he had a masters degree . . . in science. My degree is in epidemiology/biostatistics, but that's really of little relevance. We're all just parents trying to figure out how to help our children, and I haven't noticed that degree/non-degree is of much assistance.

    On guilt: But, your husband likely doesn't feel guilty, because he doesn't have a family history of scoliosis. That was my point - why would Dingo feel guilty about the possibility of passing on a disease that noone could know that he had (if, in fact, that's how it works). But, more generally, I was making a somewhat jokey swipe at the idea that it was somehow proper to breeze onto a forum and start psychoanalyzing people instead of actually addressing their arguments. And also, in order to model how one *ought* to engage (according to hdugger's rules of posting), I was engaging an unpleasant post intellectually. However, I didn't see anything wrong with Flerc responding in kind - unpleasant response to unpleasant post. It's just not so much my style.

    I feel completely responsible for my son's scoliosis - something I did during his development brought this on. It would be a great relief for me to believe it was totally genetic, since it doesn't run in my family and I couldn't possibly have known. But, intellectually, that's just not the way it appears.
    Okay, the joke went over my head! LOL You are right about the substance of some of the supposedly "educated" people's posts. Yes, we are all parents of kids or people with scoliosis ourselves.

    On guilt: There isn't a parent alive that I know of that doesn't feel guilty for one reason or another. It seems to come with the little bundles of joy.

    As far as you feeling that you did something wrong to cause your son's scoliosis - that's nonsense and you know it - now make yourself believe it. I did take embryology in college. Things happen during embryonic development (especially) that you have NO CONTROL over. During this stage of development, the "stem cells" are getting their "assignments", so to speak. If something goes wrong in even ONE cell, it can lead to a cascade of defective cells. It happens within the cell machinery. Scientists are frantically studying stem cells trying to figure out exactly HOW they get their "assignments". Yes, they can cause a stem cell to turn into a certain type of cell by putting them in with that type of cell, etc. but what tells them where they should go when the embryos are just a cluster of seemingly unorganized cells? Please don't put the blame on yourself. I know it's hard not to. I've had six miscarriages and I think back EVERY time and pinpoint "something" that I did that caused it. Realistically, there are women out there on crack that end up having perfectly formed children. I have two nieces that are "meth babies" and they are perfectly normal teenagers. One, in fact, is such a smarty pants that she has scholarships to go to the university of her choice!

    If your area of study is epidemiology, it intrigues me as to why you tend to think idiopathic scoliosis is caused by a pathogen. I haven't studied epidemiology in depth, but this one doesn't seem to have the earmarks of a contagious pathogen. It's pretty much straight across the board. Now if there were an "outbreak" of an unusually high percentage of scoliotics in one particular area, then I would look for more external causes such as diet, local toxins, living conditions, and pathogens. I would also look at societal structure to see if there were any inbreeding going on. That happens to isolated communities; for instance Amish communities in the U.S.
    Be happy!
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    people (as is supposed to be) are here to solve a serious problem
    And how are you going to do that without the first clue about a damn thing when it comes to medicine or science?

    How are you going to do that when it's non-stop folk science and ignorance on the wing from "google supergeniuses"(TM)? Who needs a doctorate or a post doctorate or decades in a research field when some "google super-genius" can just take five minutes to google a complex pathology.

    These threads in the research section are comical in the sense they are clueless but they are also sad in that you think they are helping in any way.

    Part of the blame certainly lies in the piss-poor science education in the US. Science education is under constant assault by the people at war with science. They are shooting the US in the foot as a nation. Look at these threads and tell me we can compete with other countries on basic science knowledge. It's abysmal.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Osteogenesis imperfecta is the first genetic bone diseases that popped up on Google. If you look at the photos it can lead to curved, deformed bones. Many children with Osteogenesis imperfecta also suffer from Scoliosis so it's relevant to AIS.

    The incidence of this disease is exactly what you'd expect from a genetic disease that deforms children.


    Scoliosis hits 3 in 100. Natural selection is a lot better than that. If it wasn't children wouldn't have any fitness at all.

    If you know of any genetic disease that deforms 3% of children's bones I'd like to read about it.
    1. If Osteogenesis imperfecta causes scoliosis, then it is irrelevant to idiopathic scoliosis because the cause is KNOWN.
    2. Natural selection has no capabilities. It is an idea not a deity. How do you figure that the 3 in 100 children with IS aren't fit? I was a very fit child and teenager.
    3. Idiopathic scoliosis
    Be happy!
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Please, please don't let my editor mother know!

    For some reason, even though I know better (and even though it grates my husband (also a one-time editor)) like chalk up the blackboard, I also use "alot" a lot. Maybe it's all a sneaky way of rebelling against all those editors around me? More likely, my fingers just seem to get into a habit.
    Yes, this here is a hole seperate topic. Misspelled words ain't never hurt noone. It just bothers them alot!

    I had to have a little fun, too. Honestly, some of those commonly misspelled words are distracting. I see a lot of "educated" people making some silly spelling errors. I, for one, never claimed to be a great speller (Is that even how you would say that?). I know I've got typos all over the place (head hung low).
    Be happy!
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    To react against people behaving as really bad people is not bad, is necessary, in fact is a must. And certainly if those persons are not as seems to be, they may reconsider and change their wrong behavior.. otherwise is better to not see them any more. This is not a political forum, people (as is supposed to be) are here to solve a serious problem and that people of course are a serious obstacle. If the comment of this SpiderPug not seems a good example for you, certainly we are really very very different, so it has not sense we talk never more about these issues.

    And certainly not only people supporting that kind of people are accomplices but also who not react against them. Thatís why I opened the thread you refers as I clearly said there , but as I said you many times, it seems you never understand anything about it.. anyway I was was willing to forget our quarrels there. It seems is not your case. Ok.. if it's what you want..
    Are you accusing me about not aimed specifically at Pooka1???.. do you really believe that? I cannot say it may surprise me..
    You are attacking my character and this is irrelevant to the topic at hand. You did, in fact, target Pooka1 in that thread. How can I be past it when you keep throwing personal attacks at people you disagree with? Can't you just agree to disagree? You don't know anything about me to make any kind of assertion about my character. I try to talk fairly and respectfully to everyone on here. I can disagree without attacking. Can you?
    Be happy!
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Thanks so much for that Rohrer, I actually didn't know that. I sort of assumed that it was something in my system which caused the problem. I'd also had a fetus die in my second trimester, so I figured I had some kind of toxic womb which my son had fortunately escaped the more lethal brunt of.

    Because of my focus on epidemiology (which isn't all infectious - there are people out there studying stress epidemics, etc.), I don't really know very much about how endemic diseases work. Presumably, they manage to transmit and stay in some kind of steady state, without huge fluctuations. I realize that I don't even know if scoliosis clusters - certainly it clusters in families, but does it cluster in regions? If it had a very long onset, something like the Kuru disease which takes 5 to 20 years to go from infection to cancer, how would that present in a place as transient as the US. I don't know. So, I'm willing to spend a little time thinking it through and seeing if it makes sense.

    I'm not in a particular camp, though. I just haven't heard a theory yet that I love, so I'm willing to explore different explanations. The only camp I'm intentionally rejecting is the "you can't do anything about it" camp. There's just no point, IMO, of joining that camp until all other options have been explored.
    I'm glad that the information made you feel better about your son. I'm so sorry to hear about your second trimester loss. My longest miscarriage made it to twelve weeks, but died much sooner than that. I always think it's my fault, too. We can't help our genetics, either. So in those cases it's not our fault that we carry defective genes. We are humans and we ALL carry defective genes. I sincerely doubt your son's problem is genetic, though. It was probably just an oops in development, like I said. You can rejoice in the fact that you have him!

    I'm not actually in a particular camp, either, believe it or not. I think if you do nothing, then nothing will get done. Pretty simple. I think there are physical things that SOME scoliosis patients can do that help. I also think that some people's disease is severe enough that no matter what they do, surgery is their best option NOW. Who knows what the future holds. I'm hoping for some kind of breakthrough just as much as the next person. My "belief" is that the term "idiopathic scoliosis" will be done away with. I think that there may be different causes and different genetic defects that cause scoliosis. Like I have said in the past, I've yet to meet ANYONE with my "type" of scoliosis. So, while it's classified as idiopathic, it may be connected to some other condition. I had some things wrong as an infant that I seemed to outgrow. My dad died of some kind of undiagnosed muscular dystrophy to the best of my knowledge. My condition may have something to do with those things. I honestly believe that they will be able to classify many of the idiopathic cases like they have classified your son's case. We already know that Polio, Rickets, Osteopenia imperfecta (as Dingo pointed out), Muscular Dystrophy, Spina Bifida, and Marfan's Syndrome as well as many other connective tissue disorders all cause scoliosis. Why wouldn't there be other diseases or conditions (some genetic, some not) out there that cause scoliosis?

    What aggravates me is when people make unfounded claims about certain therapies for scoliosis across the board. Some therapies will probably help a group of scoliotics, but you can't apply the therapy across the board and tell everyone else that they are wrong (not saying you do at all). For some, the only help is a surgical solution. For others, less invasive therapies may manage the disease. People get so dogmatic about stuff that it drives me nuts. They get so hung up on one thing that they throw the scientific method completely out of the window. We're all looking for answers, but we have to be smart enough to wade through the nonsense and get to the important stuff.
    Be happy!
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  9. #39
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    To keep this from becoming confusing.

    My original question.
    If you know of any genetic disease that deforms 3% of children's bones I'd like to read about it.

    Your answer
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    3. Idiopathic scoliosis
    If scientists knew that idiopathic Scoliosis was caused by heredity it wouldn't be called 'idiopathic" scoliosis. Idiopathic means of unknown cause.

    Once again if you know of any genetic disease that deforms 3% of children's bones please post a link. I'd love to read about it.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-15-2013 at 05:32 PM.

  10. #40
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    Updated question for Rohrer01 or anybody else who cares to answer

    If you know of a genetic disease that deforms the bones of 3% of ANY species of mammal on earth I'd like to read about it.

    If you asked the man on the street my assumption is that most people believe that genetic diseases are common in children when in fact they are exceptionally rare.

    Any genetic disease more common than about 1 in 10,000 children is considered very common by genetic disease standards.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-15-2013 at 08:56 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    What about dental issues like overbites, overcrowding, narrow jaw, etc? Those are often inherited, aren't they?
    Funny you should mention that. A couple of weeks ago I was informed that my older son needs braces. $4000!!! I asked my dentist why so many kids needed braces. He said it's because we eat soft, processed food that's not natural to our biology. It leads to weaker muscles and smaller jaws.

    When I got home I googled and sure enough he was right. There is a lot of research on this. I don't have a link handy but in one study scientists gave a group of mice soft, processed food and another group their traditional diet. The mice that ate the processed food had 10% smaller jaws at maturity.

    My son's dentist had another interesting observation about braces. If I understood him correctly the braces will widen my son's jaw and a stronger jaw will make him more handsome.

    So I extrapolate that to mean that if humans consumed the food we ate 1,000 years ago we'd be more handsome. 8-)

    Soft, processed food goes into the category of recent, harmful change to the environment.

    Whatever triggers Scoliosis has been around for thousands of years... and it's everywhere.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-15-2013 at 09:29 PM.

  12. #42
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    Hdugger

    The next logical question is what about eye glasses? A lot of kids wear those. Why didn't natural selection put the kabosh on that?

    Effects of outdoor activities on myopia among rural school children in Taiwan.
    Outdoor activity showed significance and was inversely associated with myopia.
    This study suggests that outdoor activities might be an important protecting factor for myopia in rural school children.
    Evidently something about being outside (maybe exposure to sunlight) helps the eyes develop properly. 1,000 years ago this wasn't a problem but in the modern world it is.
    There could be a lot of other things going wrong too. Whatever the cause it's a safe bet that the environment is more to blame than heredity.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-15-2013 at 10:13 PM.

  13. #43
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    I looked a little more and sure enough...

    The Effect of Ambient Illuminance on the Development of Deprivation Myopia in Chicks
    Exposing chicks to high illuminances, either sunlight or intense laboratory lights, retards the development of experimental myopia. These results, in conjunction with recent epidemiologic findings, suggest that daily exposure to high light levels may have a protective effect against the development of school-age myopia in children.
    Long story short if a kid has a physical or mental health problem something is wrong. A lot of times we aren't sophisticated enough to know what the problem is or how to fix it.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-15-2013 at 10:12 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    And how are you going to do that without the first clue about a damn thing when it comes to medicine or science?

    How are you going to do that when it's non-stop folk science and ignorance on the wing from "google supergeniuses"(TM)? Who needs a doctorate or a post doctorate or decades in a research field when some "google super-genius" can just take five minutes to google a complex pathology.

    These threads in the research section are comical in the sense they are clueless but they are also sad in that you think they are helping in any way.

    Part of the blame certainly lies in the piss-poor science education in the US. Science education is under constant assault by the people at war with science. They are shooting the US in the foot as a nation. Look at these threads and tell me we can compete with other countries on basic science knowledge. It's abysmal.
    Certainly I could agree if the problem here would be a planet close to crash with the earth. If people without a solid background in hard sciences as Physics and Math, would be discussing about complex calculus and ideas that scientists would be elaborating in order to solve the problem, it would be really tragic comic. What could have to do a "google super-genius"? Hard science and high tech would be the only one posible solution, (except we want to consider mystics powers) and nobody having a great understanding about it could be part of the discussion.

    But this situation of course has absolutely nothing to do and not only because current science knowledge seems to be insufficient to solve the scoliosis problem.
    Planets may crash in any moment for many people and scientists are worry about other problems or enjoying so much some researches about facts, not solutions.
    So nobdy may blame people trying to get a solution of their own problem and thinking and discussing different ideas and point of views is a good approach. See what Tom is doing.

    I understand what a genetic scientist may think if what people here are saying is really wrong. But what must to be done is to explain why they are wrong and not try to silent them. I’m sure that explanations about complex science facts may be given to people without science background. I know that never a full understanding may be get, but surely enough to the level of discussion we are having here.

    It remembers me a story of the Ernesto Sabato book ‘One and the Universe’. He related what happened when someone asked him about the relativity theory. He talked about tensors and geodesics tetradimensionale. The man stop him saying he cannot understand just only one word. So he changed the explanation trying to talk in a more common way. The man said that he did not fully understand those issues about coordinates. So he left all technical language and talked about things as airmen who smoke while traveling with the speed of light. Great! said the man Now I fully understand the Relativity theory! And Sabato said Yes!.. but it is not more the Relativity theory.
    Last edited by flerc; 05-15-2013 at 10:18 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    You are attacking my character and this is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    Which is the topic? Attacking mine?

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    You did, in fact, target Pooka1 in that thread. How can I be past it when you keep throwing personal attacks at people you disagree with?
    We has different understandings about what 'attack someone' means and having in mind your understanding I ask you why you contiunue reacting against my attack to Pooka1 and not against the so much disgusting attack from that SpiderPug to Dingo?

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    You don't know anything about me to make any kind of assertion about my character.
    No, I don’t know nothing about you as you don’t know nothing about me so you also cannot make any kind of assertion about my character as you are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I try to talk fairly and respectfully to everyone on here. I can disagree without attacking. Can you?
    I will only respond your question. Of course I can. I disagreed many times here with non agrecsive members and I just only gave my different point of view. All my life I have ‘discussed’ about rational issues with people thinking sometimes in a similar way and sometimes not. I never understood why some people turn angry when people think different if they are moving in a rational level. Emotions for me may (should?) arise when we see attacks, something evil, unmoral. unfair..

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