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Thread: Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

  1. #1
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    Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

    .. and that all the other health professionals are criminals, non surgical treatments donīt works, cannot helps noone to avoid surgery, people believing in them are desperate/stupid.. and as I said you here
    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Not use this thread to do your work (your reason to be here). Try to be respectful. Tkare has a serious problem and need this thread for help. She not needs to be convinced for you about anything.
    I replied here
    stop to dirtying other threads in order to make your work.

    Certainly is very difficult for me to discuss with people without a logic/rational mind, but I’ll do another effort again.. I hope it will be the last; I have not time to waste as I feel I’m doing and ever did discussing about this with you.
    I’m not absolutely sure about what ‘Evidence’ means for you.
    'Evidence' for me is a proof or something showing a fact. A fact is something that happened or is happening or will happens. A statement asserting a fact is true.
    So, if you are saying that There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery, you should to prove that NEVER worked in any case in the world or you should to prove that cannot works in just only one case, that is, giving a logical demonstration about it. You never did that as I know.
    Do you are confusing ‘evidence’ with well known and published cases? It will not surprise me, because is simple for people without a mathematical background to confuse a proof with only clues. If you really are honest in all what you say, this is what surely is happening with you.
    But who knows? If this is the case.. Prove it! Prove me that real cases and well known/published cases are the same. But please, try to know first what ‘prove’ really means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Convincing is the worst!
    Yes and doing it as you do all the time without any proof in the biggest forum of the world is really unacceptable. Some people may be right in saying it is fishy.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-27-2013 at 11:03 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    .I have not time to waste .
    Apparently you do.

    You've given me lots of advice lately. How's that going? Do you think it's working or what?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Apparently you do.
    I means that I should to use my time in something useful, but I not allways do what I should. Is a fact!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    You've given me lots of advice lately. How's that going? Do you think it's working or what?


    No I don't think that, the last advice was about to understand what a word means before using it and seems you are not following it.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-22-2013 at 11:43 AM.

  4. #4
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    Sharon...thank you for your intelligent comments and your knowledge and information...science will always move forward
    with facts....
    i know i am not the only one on forum who appreciates the knowledge
    you contribute...
    and i will not debate that with anyone on forum or elsewhere...
    i have more important things to do than waste my time with those
    debates!

    jess

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    i know i am not the only one on forum who appreciates the knowledge you contribute...jess
    Correct, Jess.

    I, too, always appreciate Sharon's knowledge and her willingness to state the facts, even knowing sometimes that what she says might not be what everyone wants to hear and that she may take heat for it. (One of my favorite sayings is "the world has enough YES people").

    I believe her heart is in the right place, wanting what is best for these children and in some cases, saving their parents from being taken in financially, only to be heartbroken later on when these false claims are shown to be just that.
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
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    Unfortuantely there are people in the world assuming that all thinking different has stupid behaviours.. like wanting to fight or wanting to hear what they wants instead of the true.

    Good disciples, but far the teacher yet..

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    Flerc,
    I think I understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately, the kind of practitioners that you often talk about do not want to be a part of the scientific community and do not publish their findings. I have heard only bad things about CLEAR. Chiros try to be a part of the scientific community and they do have their place for some things. But I honestly don't think that their training "teaches" them how to keep track of and publish accurate and meaningful data.

    It's only logical to follow the advice of people that have tested things over and over and have accurate data to show how things work. In any "treatment" you are going to get cases that look miraculous or curative. I can say, because my son had no treatment and his scoliosis resolved on its own, that "no treatment" is the best course for everyone. That would be a false statement even though it appeared to cure my son. The fact is, no matter what I had done with his treatment, he would have probably been "cured" because he had a case of self-resolving JIS. So his case would have been a success story for whichever practitioner I took him to. So, yes, there will be success stories for any kind of treatment. That doesn't mean that it was that particular treatment that worked UNLESS it could be repeated over and over with predictable results.

    I'm not saying that no one should try anything else and go straight to surgery. But there are a lot of scam artists out there that feed off of and get rich from the fears of others. Buyer beware.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I can say, because my son had no treatment and his scoliosis resolved on its own, that "no treatment" is the best course for everyone. That would be a false statement even though it appeared to cure my son. The fact is, no matter what I had done with his treatment, he would have probably been "cured" because he had a case of self-resolving JIS. So his case would have been a success story for whichever practitioner I took him to. So, yes, there will be success stories for any kind of treatment. That doesn't mean that it was that particular treatment that worked UNLESS it could be repeated over and over with predictable results.
    Very well put.

    That's a great explanation of why a single anecdotal success story (or even a few) is not evidence that a particular treatment works.
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
    Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
    Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

    http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

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    You know, all the faulty, anti-scientific thinking out there can be very amusing when it comes to the age of the earth, the shape of the earth, the factuality of evolution, etc. etc. etc. But those same faulty thought patterns are applied by adults to either themselves or their children it suddenly isn't funny any more. It suddenly matters whether or not you are evidence-based. If you aren't evidence-driven, it just all runs together.

    The US and some other countries have a demonstrably abysmal record on teaching scientific thinking. The rubber is hitting the road when some serious medical condition pops up. It scares me.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Flerc,
    I think I understand where you are coming from.
    Sorry Rohrer, it not seems that for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Unfortunately, the kind of practitioners that you often talk about do not want to be a part of the scientific community and do not publish their findings. I have heard only bad things about CLEAR. Chiros try to be a part of the scientific community and they do have their place for some things. But I honestly don't think that their training "teaches" them how to keep track of and publish accurate and meaningful data.
    Certainly I'm not sure which are the practitioners that I often talk about and less sure if none of them not published their findings and even less sure that Clear may be one of those practiocioners I often talk about..I only remember to said to a mother asking for them that they contacted me with a mother who said me that her daughter had a reduction of 10š and also that all I read from them has much sense for me. It hasn't sense for you? Of course it not imply that works.. I also said that I believe that a Clear Dr. gave a conference in a SOSORT event.. it's not true? I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    It's only logical to follow the advice of people that have tested things over and over and have accurate data to show how things work.
    Of course.. do you know someone doing that, working with non surgical treatments? In what kind of cases? I believe I cannot say I don't know noone, even in serious cases, but even supposing you cannot find noone doing that at least with cases as yours, does it necessarily implies that non surgical treatments cannot work for you as some people here are trying to convince at everyone reading this forum?

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    In any "treatment" you are going to get cases that look miraculous or curative. I can say, because my son had no treatment and his scoliosis resolved on its own, that "no treatment" is the best course for everyone. That would be a false statement even though it appeared to cure my son. The fact is, no matter what I had done with his treatment, he would have probably been "cured" because he had a case of self-resolving JIS. So his case would have been a success story for whichever practitioner I took him to. So, yes, there will be success stories for any kind of treatment.
    Good to know the scoliosis is solved for your son. How many degrees did he has? Sure not so many. Of course I know about spontaneous cures, but never in big curves.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    That doesn't mean that it was that particular treatment that worked
    Do you believe that I may think a particular method works because was useful in insignificant or mild curves?

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    UNLESS it could be repeated over and over with predictable results.
    Depending on what it means for you, you may say that none method really works. Is what I said in a large thread. But it not means that none method never REALLY worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I'm not saying that no one should try anything else and go straight to surgery.
    Why not, if non surgical methods not work? They not work because surgeons are not saying that may work and they never worked in just only one case. Only someone stupid, ignorant or desperate may try with something else.
    You know some people are saying that, the first step is convincing that never worked in just only one case.

    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    But there are a lot of scam artists out there that feed off of and get rich from the fears of others. Buyer beware.
    Yes, but not all the non surgical professionals as that people are trying to convince at everyone.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post

    The US and some other countries have a demonstrably abysmal record on teaching scientific thinking.
    I'm sure scientific thinking only may be learned in a Scientific University. Otherwise you may have people confusing evidence with well known evidence and then doing hard and dangerous claims.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariaf View Post
    Very well put.

    That's a great explanation of why a single anecdotal success story (or even a few) is not evidence that a particular treatment works.
    Sure, of course all of those few cases were spontaneous reversions. Fortunately you are here and know so much about what every method may do or not so you know that they never can really work.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    In any "treatment" you are going to get cases that look miraculous or curative. I can say, because my son had no treatment and his scoliosis resolved on its own, that "no treatment" is the best course for everyone. That would be a false statement even though it appeared to cure my son. The fact is, no matter what I had done with his treatment, he would have probably been "cured" because he had a case of self-resolving JIS. So his case would have been a success story for whichever practitioner I took him to. So, yes, there will be success stories for any kind of treatment. That doesn't mean that it was that particular treatment that worked UNLESS it could be repeated over and over with predictable results.
    Certainly the same may be said about scolioscore. If the score is low and the curve not reaches "surgical range", is because so few progress to that stage. If Score is high, and surgery is done.. well, you'll never know if was right or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Sure, of course all of those few cases were spontaneous reversions. Fortunately you are here and know so much about what every method may do or not so you know that they never can really work.
    Where did I say that all of those few cases were spontaneous reversions?

    You seem insistent on not listening to what anyone else is saying. Re-read my post stating that what Rohrer said made perfect sense and explains why one or two anecdotal cases mean nothing. I never said "one or two anecdotal cases of spontaneous reversion". YOU said that.

    Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have been nothing but polite thus far and yet you find the need to be sarcastic, while in the same breath you want to slap Sharon's hand for what she posts. You are not making a good case for yourself.
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
    Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
    Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

    http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

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    Quote Originally Posted by mariaf View Post
    I have been nothing but polite thus far and yet you find the need to be sarcastic, while in the same breath you want to slap Sharon's hand for what she posts. You are not making a good case for yourself.
    People have to be actually sitting at the big table of evidence-driven thought to be able to reach me to slap me. I am still waiting for Flerc to join me at the big table. That's why I asked him earlier if he thought any of his admonitions to me were having any effect on me. Clearly they are not. That said, I would love to be edified by Flerc or anyone who ponies up evidence to the big table.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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