Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

[flerc]

Do you expect I may believe it?..tell me what part do you not understand? You not replied nothing

[flerc]

Okay I think I see the problem.

You seem to think that saying...

1.) "There is no good evidence that bracing has saved a single person from fusion."

is the same as saying...

2.) "There is good evidence bracing can never work."

Those statements are entirely different. Only the first is true (as proven just by the existence of the BrAIST study irrespective of any results they may glean when they publish their findings). The second is false and will likely always be false. I actually think there may well may be a (very) small, undefinable group of AIS people who might avoid fusion for life from bracing (or PT). But if researchers can never show that then it is rational to remain skeptical and kids should be informed so that can decide if they want to take a chance or not. It is not crazy for a child to decide to try bracing (or PT) if they are informed.

It is NOT rational to try alternative treatments dreamed up by lay people such as you have talked about for years in my opinion.

Does that help?

What have to do with what you ever say 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery'.

[Pooka1]

Do you expect I may believe it?..tell me what part do you not understand? You not replied nothing

I have never accused you of being dishonest. But obviously you think I am being dishonest.

There is nothing more to say.

[flerc]

If you have some reason for accusing me about something as of course I was accusing you when I opened this thread (you don't realized it?) do it. What a simple way to respond to an accusation!

[flerc]

And also what may be good for one may not be much good for other. I don’t believe at all in an uniform solution for everyone belonging to the same group of the standard classification (age, degrees..).. it should to be customized, but of course more knowledge would be needed.

[flerc]

And I was not refering only to the OWMC, who ever works in the same way. At least in my country and many others, if you go to an Hospital they say you ONLY must to see a surgeon, who in turn only offer brace or surgery.
But as said once, if you visit an alternative practitioner, he will only offer to you the method he practice..except he know more than one.. but anyway , in how many methods may he be an expert? Customized solution there not exists by now..

[flerc]

If you have some reason for accusing me about something as of course I was accusing you when I opened this thread (you don't realized it?) do it. What a simple way to respond to an accusation!

to do something inmoral here. I was now clear enough?

[flerc]

Hdugger, what a great news!.. but in fact I'm really envious ..Ha!
The father of my grandfather borned in the north of Italy, I have de date when he come to Argentina with his wife, all the certificates of his grandson and son.. but I cannot get his birth certificate

Congratulations!

[flerc]

Oddly, I am theoretically opposed to bracing. It just seems to me like weakening the muscles *can't* help. But, my theoretical disposition aside, it seems like it does work if the protocol is followed

I’m not sure..
One renowned ‘Muscular Relaxing Oriented’ practitioner said me is not a real problem. Of course if he would have been a Muscular Strengthening Oriented practitioner would have said me something very different.
I remember he said me the problem was propioception.. I don’t know why he said it.
I believe the problem may arise after removing the brace, not while is used. But what if something like swimming is practiced for hours after was definitely removed? Anyway, good exercise may be done without removing it.
Certainly, why not swimming during brace? Of course I’m referring to remove it for swimming and immediately put it again.. I’m far to propose to smother kids or teens.
Brace should not to be removed, but why not being lay down? The gravity force could not pull down the spine.

[flerc]

Here's a good review of long-term surgical outcome:

http://www.orthopaedicsone.com/displ...osis+Deformity

Interestingly, while the Cobb angle remains stable, other curves increase (and please, don't ask me which ones - I couldn't quite make sense of it). I *think* there are changes in the sagittal plane as well as continued rotation.

On a completely unrelated topic: Flerc, the little town of Nicosia (in Sicily) found my grandfather's birth certificate. Dual citizenship, here I come

Really important what this article says.
May be what you say.. every reasonable idea here should be gathered and analyzed. Thinking all together we could arrive to good conclusions and who knows what could happen..
Who may be sure for example if would be impossible to arrive to the design of the best possible brace?

Of course would be needed more people not seeing as an absurd to think in braces or anything not belonging to the OWMC before this community show a definite evidence saying that works to avoid surgeries.
But of course it has not any sense we talk about this.. for us, is an unalterable fact. That is, facts that cannot be changed for the problem solver.. something essential to know in Problem Solving!

As a great man said once: “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”..

And of course in scoliosis as in every problem, it would be essential to know the inalterable relevant facts in order to get a solution. They depends on the kind of solution you are thinking. If you are thinking in the discovery of something altering the genes of new generations, so only may arises curves in the sagital plane, surely same inalterable facts as the heuter-volkmann law, some physics concepts about the gravity force, the decomposition in other planes, redirection forces behavior.. probably should not be necessary to be taken into account, but yes if you are thinking in something as braces. And braces seems to be the outcome of a rational analysis taken into account at least some of those facts.

Certainly a Data Base Knowledge containing all the relevant facts in order to solve the scoliosis problem is needed for everyone trying to solve it. Then according the kind of solution taken in mind (surgical, non surgical, Exercise oriented, Device oriented.. ) or a mix of all, would be possible to select the relevant facts seeming to have to take into account and get (through reasonable reasoning) conclusions, which in turn may be taken as new relevant ‘facts’, being useful to arrive to new conclusions which in turn.. the way in which the Mother of all Sciences works! And what may be more rational than Maths? And what may be more incredible than the achievements emerged from her daughters.. like Internet? Some goals seeming impossible, where achieved by people connected and trying to solve all together the same problem.. but of course it has not any sense to say something like this here.. I wish would be different,, but I should remember what the great St. Francis of Assisi said.

[flerc]

I know now more about why you think in this way and always seem me someone really wise.
Certainly it ever surprise me how so many people affronting health problems, even knowing the solution offered by the official medicine will be far to be satisfactory and odds to ‘works’ low in their case, anyway they refuse to prove with something else, even they not loose anything doing that prove. Certainly if you have 2 options A with 99% of chances to work and B with 1%, you may say that the most reasonable choice would be A. But probably the right choice would have been B. Sure if you was in the 1% of A failure cases and in the 1% of B successful cases, so B would have been the right decision, not A (the most reasonable by far). So if you have choose A, you did a wrong decision, but you may be sure you did a very reasonable decision (may we try any more?) But if you refused to prove also with B, not losing anything doing it, you would have made an unreasonable decision too, not only wrong.

If I understand what you say, kyphotic with dorsal curve are sever problem (the curves moves to other zones?) and adults have a bad posture loading more weight to the curve.. also to loosen (relax?) the muscles may improve the posture. Really interesting! Supposing I interpreted rightly, this ‘fact’ should to be gathered in the Knowledge Data Base.
Of course General Problem Solving is not ‘so easy’ as Maths, in the sense is difficult to be sure you are working with facts. You need a perfect proof, enough good evidence to be sure, but anyway you cannot sit down and wait to be absolutely sure before using that assumption. Certainly we deals with assumptions, not facts.. may be really facts but we are not so sure. I opened a thread years ago mentioning some (few up to this moment) ‘facts’ (more optimistic than saying assumptions) for me some of them as questions, others as assertions.. I was new and I supposed people would be interested in working in that way..

If someone said something seeming reasonable should to belong to KDB (Knowledge Data Base) assigning a percentage of validity saying how much convincing we believe is that assumption and recording the foundation saying why it seems to be true and the criticism saying why it seems to be false..
For instance I heard here about some ligament that turn so stiff in adulthood and make something as a natural fusion. Of course such assumption should belong to the KDB, recording in the foundation, same experiment done. But I know an ‘old’ woman with 80° having an extraordinary flexibility, so it should to be recorded in the criticism field. The % validity may decrease then from 85% to 45%.. other members may say something in favor or against it and would be updated again.. and of course the same would happens with the assumption (conclusions) derived for this assumption.

We would be updating every time the validity of the assumption in order to new data entering in the forum until a definitive proof may not be questioned. In the meantime you have many assumptions with a validity estimation saying about the chance of successful if you are decided to do something taking it into account!

Wow!.. although the assumption of Francis yesterday, it seems I’m not thinking so much in what Saint Francis said.

[flerc]

None extra technology would be needed in this forum to have his own Knowledge Data Base( KDB). A very simple notation can perfectly describe data, the conclusions and the relationships forming the Solving Problem Network. When the network growth, is difficult to follow it, but I designed once a simple graph in order to make it clear, showing all the concepts involved in the solving process and graphs may be ‘stored’ in this forum.

Your good idea about gathering patient information of course might be part of this big KDB. Until a careful observation would be done, it would be only data.. After observation and analysis, a conclusion may be done and this data would be part of the foundation of this conclusion. For instance the observation of Patient53 who after some months of Rolfing practice, increased the difference of the ratio between the height being stand up and lying up would support the assumption telling that ‘flexibility may be improved in a significant way’ which in turn may be used to get other conclusions..
In the same thread of only ‘pure data’ may be gathered also experiments (without conclusions)
Certainly this is very close to Data Mining. the process of extracting relevant information from data. And relevant information (facts assumptions) is needed in order to solve problems. The typical example is the discovery telling that in Friday was an unusually high number of customers who purchased both diapers and beer. . analysis revealed the fact that there was many young fathers whose outlook for the weekend was to stay at home taking care of her son and watching TV with a beer in hand..a relevant information in order to solve the problem of not enough sales. The solution was placing beer next to diapers in supermarkets to promote sales compulsive.
High tech may also be used in Data Mining as Artificial Intelligence.. of course it would not be a necessary condition the use of AI to do a KDB here.

Imagine all the people around the world worry about the scoliosis problem, dedicated to the KDB construction.. smart people, intuitive people, wise people.. having good ideas, dooing good observations, sharing real experiences.. who may say would not be something great? Only an ignorant I believe.

[flerc]

In the same thread of only ‘pure data’ may be gathered also experiments (without conclusions)

Also in the case of scientific experiments described in articles, conclusion should to be evaluated. As PAUL NURSE said ‘..respect for observation, respect for data, respect for experiment. Trust no-one. Trust only what the experiments and the data tell you. We have to continue to use that approach if we are to solve problems..'.
I think is right your conclusion about the ‘experiment’ with your boy. I’m sure cosmetic improves in that way. Massages I ‘feel’ are wonderful. I don’t know why, but we are not only a mind, we have instict, intuition.. ancient cultures knew and used since centuries ago some things that only recently was explained why they works.
You are doing remember me I saw an significant improvement in this sense when my daughter practiced Antigymnastique http://www.antigymnastique.com/us/wh...ntigymnastique and I’m thinking since movements are done over the floor, probably also works as a self massage.. maybe has nothing to do, but anyway I’m sure massages are an excelent complement.. as I believe it is electro estimulation-
Thanks Hudgger for share your email form SEAS with me. Certainly I doubt so much they come here.. maybe now because Fransisco assumption this week Ha!.. Schroth is not here.. also not Spinecor, (I don’t know why Argentina appears in the list of countries).. any way I may write to them.

[flerc]

Flerc, I know you're just trying to provide context for your response, but what you're *actually* doing is posting all of Pooka's posts a second time, and also making them visible to those of us who have chosen to put her on ignore.

I suspect you don't believe that every one of Pooka's posts deserves to be posted twice. Would you mind finding some way of providing context which doesn't amplify her message. Anyone who can read the thread can read her post themselves, and the rest of us can be left in our blissful ignorance

I am grimly bemused, though, by the idea that those of us for whom there is no safe medical treatment should just "accept reality." I'm going to confer with Dante about which circle *that* belongs in!

Sorry Hdugger but can I do?
I may do the same as you, but certainly I would have not latin blood running in my veins if I would be quiet knowing someone is saying about me what she use to say in order to do her work and not reply to her teasings behind my back.
And certainly I believe is good to take into account what I said you once in this thread:

I’m sure that all the evil of the world is not only because the bad people provoking it, but mainly because the good people not doing anything to not allow it.
That ‘good’ people probably may be seen as good anyway, but at least they are accomplices.
And certainly I don’t want feel as an accomplice of the perversion I’m seeing here since long time ago.

Certainly if I would use that button as you do to not read what she says, I would be doing what she wants, she might make me look as a fool and that seems to be the main part of her work: to convince everyone reading this forum that only fools, ignorants, mads or desperate people may thing in something different to what the western official medical community says. Certainly it seems you agree with what she says when you not reply what she says about your posts.
So I also would be part of her work.. I would be an accomplice of her inmoral work and she has so many accomplices here..so I don't want to belong to that club!

[flerc]

I used to run online forums as a job, so I've seen that solution frequently. And I agree that it's unavoidable in this case if you want to have two posts in a row about the same topic and not post-jab-post.

The reason I've resisted for so long is mainly what Flerc says. You're departing the stage for the wings. You're learning things which now only a very few people will know. And you're leaving behind only the steady drumbeat of "surgery surgery surgery" for any other parent coming to the biggest public forum in the US looking for advice about their child. Your child comes first - and I understand what you need to do for her - but there's a vacuum left behind.

The second reason is more quirky, I suspect, on my part. I think much better when I'm talking to people who don't agree/don't see things the way I do. So, for me, a bit of tension, a bit of back and forth, is actually really helpful. But, obviously, non-stop disruptions and personal invectives go way, way past "a bit of tension".

You know, I'd noticed that interesting, non-surgical posters had just sort of drifted off one by one and only come back to give updates - not to discuss any more. I didn't realize just how global it was until I saw one of the most interesting non-surgical posters come back for an infrequent update, and be immediately snagged by the other most interesting nonpsurgical poster and asked to join the other group. That's very, very smart to find really the best people all using different methods and all putting their heads together. And I completely understand why it can only happen in private. Can I ask a big favor? Can you throw up a website or a blog or something public and static and just post monthly reports there? Don't take comments - don't let it devolve into this. But just create a place where someone looking to see what other solutions there might be has a tiny window.

Every thing that may be done and posted out of this forum may be great for people doing it, but it would favors the people don’t wanting this Forum to be what it should to be. How many people might know about what those groups are doing? Did you see how many visits has some threads here?.

Why this forum should to be the biggest promotion of the world only for surgery? Why people thinking in other kind of solution must to be private to know about other possibilities? If this forum would be formally shown as a surgical forum and it would be banned to talk about something just only suggesting about other possibilities it would be ok. But it would not be a good promotion really and sure, other forum would be the biggest scoliosis forum in the world with a non surgical section.. and of course is logic to believe it would not be what they wants.