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Thread: coordination dynamics therapy

  1. #16
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    Bumping this thread up past all of the spam.
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  2. #17
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    I'm not really sure WHY they even briefly mentioned scoliosis. Has there been proven neurologic deficits in people with scoliosis? Otherwise, why would they mention it at all? Yes, I got the same impression as you did. They were talking about LESIONS on the brain and spinal cord causing problems.
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  3. #18
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    So if there are deficits in the CNS in idiopathic scoliosis, how come they can not find it's source? Maybe the CNS deficit is what causes the scoliosis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    I just can't see how difficulty in balancing can be a primary cause of a disorder found so frequently in ballet dancers.

    My son, though, has some kind of issue in balance - he was in occupational therapy with it for years as a child.
    That's the whole reason that I "assumed" that it involved those who had trouble with proprioception.

    As far as your son goes, doesn't he have congenital scoliosis with an syrinx? The syrinx might explain his difficulties. I think Tamzin was having trouble with a bunch of stuff before her dad started working with her. That is why, I understand, the reason she was taken to the doctor who made her diagnosis. Of course, she also has a Chiari 1.

    What is interesting with me is that, as an infant, had my mother not walked into the room at the exact time that she did, I would have been a SID's baby at four months old. She found me blue and unresponsive and had to do mouth to mouth. Thankfully my heart had not yet stopped. In the ER they told her that nothing was wrong with me except that I had a mild cold and a stuffy nose. She told me that she had to thump my feet to keep me crying because every time I stopped crying, I also stopped breathing. The stupid ER people sent her home with me. I'm sure she had a hellacious week watching me get over that cold! The point being, in retrospect, my mom has often speculated that there was something wrong with my nervous system to start with, especially when I ended up with scoliosis. I've always had two left feet, totally unable to dance.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    I just can't see how difficulty in balancing can be a primary cause of a disorder found so frequently in ballet dancers.

    My son, though, has some kind of issue in balance - he was in occupational therapy with it for years as a child.
    Sorry! I don't understand.. what is that disorder found so frequently in ballet dancers? What has to do occupational therapy with balance difficulty?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    An unexpectedly large number of ballet dancers have scoliosis. It just seems like the proprioception problem can't be the cause of scoliosis in those patients, since they appear to have an extraordinary sense of balance.

    It seems likely to me that much of what's mucking up the waters is that scoliosis is the presenting symptom across many different etiologies. So, the ballet dancers with scoliosis could have one root cause, people like my son another, and so on and so on. It's as if we were trying to root cause skin rash - many people with exactly the same symptoms can have completely different causes.
    I totally agree.
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  7. #22
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    Probably if ballet dancers have scoliosis in a bigger proportion, is because ballet provokes scoliosis. I suppose they has a mild curve.
    I also agree there surely are different causes for IS.. and not only original causes, but also current causes, thatís why I think treatments should to be customized.
    We only should be worry about original causes if we would be researchers trying to find a Ďvaccineí in order to prevent scoliosis, but if we are trying to solve the problem of people already having it, we must to be focused only in current causes. Suppose that Osteopaths are right and some problem during parturition provokes sometimes scoliosis. What could someone do? Reversing the time and avoid that problem? What must to be done is discovering all the negative factors provoking or allowing the problem now (current causes).
    Iím sure a bad proprioception or every problem in Cns, vestibular system, a wrong body image, pain, discomfort, personality issues, structural deficiencies (as abnormal arches feet), bad emotions and everything leading to an imperfect posture are secondary current causes, doing difficult or impossible an improvement.

    Unfortunately medicine (of every kind) cannot say us so much about the percentage incidence of every current cause. Suppose that getting a perfect propioception the scoliosis could only be improved in the best case (scoliotic people with the worst propioception) in a 1%. Surely would has not any sense a treatment focused only in proprioception but, what if can attack all negative factors leading to a bad posture, whose percentage incidence may be in some cases around 25%?

    I know someone of this therapy in my country. Iím trying to contact them in order to know if a test saying about a real problem on those issues is possible. Iím thinking in combining some method focused in coordination, proprioception and balance with K-Tapping.

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    My thought is that more ballet dancers have scoliosis because many of them may have connective tissue disorders that make them extremely flexible. Flexibility like most ballet dancers have is not common in the general population. I honestly don't think flexibility like that could even be attained by the majority of population not involved in sports requiring that kind of flexibility. No matter how hard I worked and how much I stretched, I've never been able to do the splits in either direction. Although, I am loose jointed everywhere else.

    I don't view proprioception problems as a cause. I view them as a result. Obviously this isn't an issue with ballet dancers, gymnasts, etc. So then the skin rash analogy is great. There are many different causes of skin rashes. Maybe there are many different causes of scoliosis, even genetic causes. Marfan's Syndrome has a high percentage of scoliotics, as do other individual connective tissue disorders. Maybe scoliosis isn't the originating malfunction but only a result of a different disorder.

    So back to the original thread topic: Coordination Dynamics Therapy could be a treatment for the subset of scoliotics with particular problems, not scoliotics in general.
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  9. #24
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    delayed puberty

    Part of the possible explanation for many ballet dancers having scoliosis is delayed puberty. http://www.early-onset-scoliosis.com...n%20Ballet.pdf

    This article cites 24% of a dance company as having scoliosis; this does not count the ones that developed too large of curves to enter a professional company. In this particular one, 15/18 started menses approx two years later than average- over age 14. I have also read something that makes sense to me, that many of the moves encourage hypokyphosis which is also seen as a possible scoli trigger.

    Although, I do think that many in the average population can attain greater flexibility then they are naturally 'endowed' with. I doubt that my daughter was naturally overly flexible, but has trained for hundreds of hours to become so. Maybe she was predisposed, I don't know... but her sisters and I definitely are not particularly flexible.
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  10. #25
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    I'm not at all discounting the fact that a lot of the flexibility of ballet dancers isn't a result of hours and hours of hard work and training. I do know that if my sons trained their whole lives, they "may" get flexible enough to touch their toes! Delayed puberty in girls, I've also read, is common. I also had delayed puberty. I don't know about boys. It's easier to judge sexual maturity in girls because of the onset of menses. It's harder with boys because secondary sex characteristics continue to develop and are sometimes absent to the casual onlooker when the boys are technically "men". I haven't seen any studies about that. It would be interesting to see about boys.

    Aside from the paper cited on this thread, I've never seen scoliosis associated with CNS disturbances. The only things I've seen so far that could remotely cause CNS symptoms are altered proprioception, problems with the spinal cord such as a syrinx, and stretching of the cord, pinched nerves, etc. and these problems obviously don't occur with everyone.

    Edit: Altered proprioception being a result of a CNS disturbance, not a cause. But what is the cause of this?
    Last edited by rohrer01; 04-18-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    My thought is that more ballet dancers have scoliosis because many of them may have connective tissue disorders that make them extremely flexible. Flexibility like most ballet dancers have is not common in the general population. I honestly don't think flexibility like that could even be attained by the majority of population not involved in sports requiring that kind of flexibility. No matter how hard I worked and how much I stretched, I've never been able to do the splits in either direction. Although, I am loose jointed everywhere else.

    I don't view proprioception problems as a cause. I view them as a result. Obviously this isn't an issue with ballet dancers, gymnasts, etc. So then the skin rash analogy is great. There are many different causes of skin rashes. Maybe there are many different causes of scoliosis, even genetic causes. Marfan's Syndrome has a high percentage of scoliotics, as do other individual connective tissue disorders. Maybe scoliosis isn't the originating malfunction but only a result of a different disorder.

    So back to the original thread topic: Coordination Dynamics Therapy could be a treatment for the subset of scoliotics with particular problems, not scoliotics in general.
    In martial arts, mainly when is practiced since childhood, an extreme flexibility is achieved also.
    I was talking about CURRENT causes not the original ones. If you want we may talk about negative and positive factors. We cannot demonstrate anything here, but I suppose is obvious that having a bad posture is a negative factor, so everything leading to it, is also a negative factor, so if all scoliotic people has a coordination problem (as it seems they are saying), getting a significant improvement in this sense (as they says is possible with this method) could be something good in a general case.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Aside from the paper cited on this thread, I've never seen scoliosis associated with CNS disturbances. The only things I've seen so far that could remotely cause CNS symptoms are altered proprioception, problems with the spinal cord such as a syrinx, and stretching of the cord, pinched nerves, etc. and these problems obviously don't occur with everyone.

    Edit: Altered proprioception being a result of a CNS disturbance, not a cause. But what is the cause of this?
    I'm so far to be an expert in this field, but cannot neurologic problems leads to CNS disturbance? Dystonia is not a problem of this kind? I believed kids with CP has a dramatic CNS disturbance..
    I believe this therapy is not intending to solve proprioception problems.. only with CNS.

  13. #28
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    Of course, is a matter of common sense and surely many logic explanation may be given. Everyone, not only scoliotic people should try to get the best posture that their structure allows.
    And certainly every effective method improving posture as seems to be this (sure if effectively improve coordination), should to be considered as a candidate to belong to a mixed and customized solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    I'm so far to be an expert in this field, but cannot neurologic problems leads to CNS disturbance? Dystonia is not a problem of this kind?
    Yes it is! And seems to be present in a soft way in IS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Of course, is a matter of common sense and surely many logic explanation may be given. Everyone, not only scoliotic people should try to get the best posture that their structure allows.
    It seems to be also bone reasons! Hdugger, have you read this? http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...one-Remodeling speccially this article http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC308...Sf7fxWA0MwTD.0 I'm not sure if certainly Wolff's law may leads to a good or bad remodelation depending on the 'posture'.

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