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Thread: Richard III found and he had scoliosis

  1. #16
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    OK, Dingo...
    not everyone believes your interpretation...
    you can keep trying to convince people if you need to...
    that doesn't mean you will succeed...
    i wonder about how desperately you seem to need to
    convince others...
    so i will not respond again...

    jess

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    OK, Dingo...
    not everyone believes your interpretation...
    you can keep trying to convince people if you need to...
    that doesn't mean you will succeed...
    i wonder about how desperately you seem to need to
    convince others...
    so i will not respond again...

    jess
    You misunderstood the nature of my post. Nobody knows for sure what causes Scoliosis. You can believe what you want. But years from now when scientists prove that AIS is triggered by a harmful microorganism remember where you heard it first.

  3. #18
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    Lay people use the term, "environmental" differently that research scientists. That is where these folk science posts jump the tracks. Scientists are not talking about things like germs and latitude/sunlight but rather things that most lay folks would never think to call "environmental" (maternal age, etc.).

    The germ theory of scoliosis can be definitively ruled out on the basis of incidence and prevalence as far as I know which is a complete explanation for why no research scientists working on idiopathic etiology is working on germ theory nor have they ever worked on that to my knowledge. It also explains the confluence of opinion among experts that IS is a complex, multifactorial polygenetic condition. There is no credible scientist who claims this is not ultimately a genetic condition.

    There is a reason why actual research scientists are working on different things compared to lay "google scientists" who don't have a lick of relevant training.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
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  4. #19
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    I would say that in a study of monozygotic twins, the females should not be considered because of x inactivation. This could tremendously skew the results. So if there is an environmental pathogen, then why is the incidence not the same in both mono- and dizygotic twins? They are all exposed to all of the same things, share the same toys, live in the same environment. For that matter, why not study whole families? Oh, they have. Some skip generations (showing more or less predominantly recessive characteristics), others seem to never skip a generation (showing primarily dominant characteristics).

    Taking your theory, and that of some others into view, it would be really hard to "prove" a microbial source unless EVERYONE with IS (I'm assuming this is the type you are talking about) test positive for the same bug. Most of the things that hang around forever wreaking havoc are viruses. So, even if the germ theory is true, there's probably no way to prove it, or would be extremely expensive and time consuming to do. SO that's another very good reason to track the heritability of this disease, which no one can deny. Environmental "factors" could be so many things (not just germs) that it seems the best course to study the more obvious root cause, which is heritability. I would be curious to know how many of the healthy population share the same deleterious genes that the scoliotics have. That might be a clue.

    By the way, some scoliosis is caused by viruses. Polio has caused many cases. Some is caused by malnutrition leading to rickets and scoliosis. Who knows what causes congenital scoliosis any more than any other physical deformity. But there are, in fact, some known cases of viral scoliosis.

    But, even though we have our differences, it's nice to hear from you again.

    As for the king's bones; one of the articles said "mild" scoliosis. If that's mild, these people are nuts! That looks like quite a severe curve to me. It is especially enough to cause quite a large rib hump. If you look at the cross sections of the vertebrae the spinous processes are quite folded. It's too bad that people put an "evil" label on people with deformities.
    Be happy!
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  5. #20
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    Taking your theory, and that of some others into view, it would be really hard to "prove" a microbial source unless EVERYONE with IS (I'm assuming this is the type you are talking about) test positive for the same bug. Most of the things that hang around forever wreaking havoc are viruses. So, even if the germ theory is true, there's probably no way to prove it, or would be extremely expensive and time consuming to do. SO that's another very good reason to track the heritability of this disease, which no one can deny. Environmental "factors" could be so many things (not just germs) that it seems the best course to study the more obvious root cause, which is heritability. I would be curious to know how many of the healthy population share the same deleterious genes that the scoliotics have. That might be a clue.
    Hi Rohrer,

    They'll prove the cause of Scoliosis the same way they proved that Narcolepsy was an autoimmune disease that's more common among people who have particular genes.

    Narcolepsy is an autoimmune disorder, Stanford researcher says
    Mignot and others believe that the body’s immune system plays a role in killing hypocretin-making cells, primarily because of scientific literature showing a link between narcolepsy and a variant for the human leukocyte antigen, or HLA, gene. The immune system uses HLAs to differentiate between “self” cells and foreign cells (and attacks those presented as foreign), and most autoimmune diseases are associated with variants of HLA. In recent studies, more than 90 percent of narcolepsy patients were shown to carry one such variant.
    But it's not that simple. The genes don't appear to trigger the disease, they only raise susceptibility.

    Scientists believe that exposure to harmful microorganisms triggers the errant immune response.

    Narcolepsy
    Variations in several additional genes have also been associated with narcolepsy. Many of these genes are thought to play roles in immune system function. However, variations in these genes probably make only a small contribution to the overall risk of developing narcolepsy. Other genetic and environmental factors are also likely to influence a person's chances of developing this disorder. For example, studies suggest that bacterial or viral infections such as strep throat (streptococcus), colds, and influenza may be involved in triggering narcolepsy in people who are at risk.
    Scoliosis won't be any different.

    Genes create increased susceptibility and exposure to bugs triggers the disease. It's why a king from 500 years ago and a child living in the modern world can suffer from the same disease. The genes and the germs still exist.

    If the environmental component is not a germ I'll be surprised. There isn't much else it could be.

    If anybody has a sensible, alternate hypothesis I'd leave to read it.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-06-2013 at 08:10 AM.

  6. #21
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    Well Dingo, I guess that settles it. You've figured it out. Too bad all those researchers are lagging so far behind your insightful discovery.

    Now, all you need to do is get it published in a scholarly journal, so you can officially get credit.
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  7. #22
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    If the studies show that in narcolepsy a germ is possibly involved (a hypothesis), why can't they isolate which one? The point here is that genes are also involved. It's much easier to track the heritablilty of things rather than tracking down the many billions of bacterial, viral, fungal, amoebic, or other countless environmental factors. Also, microbes mutate all the time making it even more difficult. Another problem is that in order to test if someone had been infected at one time, they need a blood sample to look for antibodies. You can't get blood from old bones (maybe some dried up marrow if you're lucky and the bones aren't fossilized). They barely get enough DNA off of old bones to be able to trace lineage, let alone every infection the person may have had. It's difficult science.

    Why do you think that some microbe could be the ONLY environmental factor? I'm not saying they absolutely can't be, but there are also many more things that it could be. If it were a genetic/microbial cause, then you'd think we would be seeing way more cases of IS, especially if so many "healthy" people carry the same deleterious genes. That's why I think they should check EVERYONE in a family that has more scoliosis to see how many of the unaffected carry the same gene combination. I know they took my parents DNA as well as my own. I have other family members with scoliosis that didn't contribute to the Axial Biotech study. Maybe I got a bad combo from both of my healthy parents. I don't know. They gave me ZERO feedback which I am greatly upset about. Also, from my perspective, they should do a study on Scoliscore with a large random sample of the general population, scoli's and non-scoli's alike without knowing who has scoliosis and who doesn't at first. Then compare the incidence of the gene combination in the unaffected with the affected. THEN and only then could they start looking at nongenetic contributing factors.

    Just my opinion.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  8. #23
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    rohrer01

    That's why I think they should check EVERYONE in a family that has more scoliosis to see how many of the unaffected carry the same gene combination. I know they took my parents DNA as well as my own. I have other family members with scoliosis that didn't contribute to the Axial Biotech study. Maybe I got a bad combo from both of my healthy parents. I don't know.
    It's not that genes don't play a part. They play a role in every human disease.

    Exhibit A)
    Genetics of flu susceptibility

    But genes are only one part of the equation. If you had an identical twin it would have just an 11% chance to suffer from Scoliosis.

    Scoliosis has a significant environmental component. Most people never think about it or chose to believe it doesn't exist.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-06-2013 at 08:52 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    rohrer01



    If you had an identical twin it would have just an 11% chance to suffer from Scoliosis.
    If they didn't bar females from that study, then it is skewed. One study doesn't tell all. No one is arguing an environmental component. I think King Richard's thread has been derailed.

    For the sake of pure information on heredity of this disease, my new daughter-in-law has scoliosis and had to be fused at 16. Her father also has scoliosis as well as an uncle that also needed to be fused. My son had JIS that self resolved. Obviously they are concerned about having children. In this case the hereditary component seems so overwhelmingly obvious. I have concerns for my future grandchildren as well. I have it, my daughter has it, my son "had" it, my paternal grandmother had it, my maternal aunt has kyphosis, my niece has it. These are just the family members that I know about. Some families have many more affected people than other families.

    I'm going to stop now, not because our conversation isn't interesting, but because this was about an archaeological find about King Richard III. It would be interesting to know if any of his mother's descendants are affected (since his only child died). Also, just an fyi, familial DNA can only be traced through generations by the maternal line due to the fact that the offspring of every woman shares HER mitochondrial DNA and not that of the father. Just for those who were wondering about what was mentioned in the article about tracing the maternal line.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 02-06-2013 at 09:27 AM.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    If you had an identical twin it would have just an 11% chance to suffer from Scoliosis.
    False. The correct incidence (prevalence?) for scoliosis in both of a set of monozygotic twins is 73% to >90% as I recall. For example, in my set of mono twins, it is 100%. The higher figures are what is most often cited by other researchers for a reason. If they mention the lower figure it is for completeness only. This is reminiscent of studies in my field where one aberrant study exists that should never have been published but then needs to be mentioned and then dismissed over and over and over again.

    Folk science is not useful when trying to understand complex medical issues. What is missing in citing 11% for mono twins is any understanding of the limitations of published studies, in keeping with the near-complete vacuum of training in science in the lay public.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I'm going to stop now, not because our conversation isn't interesting, but because this was about an archaeological find about King Richard III. It would be interesting to know if any of his mother's descendants are affected (since his only child died).
    She was born nearly 100 years later and wasn't related to Richard III, but you might be interested to hear about Lady Mary Grey. She was the sister of the "Nine-Days Queen" Jane Grey, and granddaughter of Henry VIII's sister Mary, and was said to have had scoliosis. Along with her sisters, she was next in line to the throne under the terms of Henry VIII's will because Elizabeth I was childless.

    The Spanish ambassador described her as "'little, crook-backed and very ugly'". She still managed to annoy Elizabeth by eloping with the man she loved instead of asking for royal permission to marry :smile:

  12. #27
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    hey Gayle
    best smile i had all day!

    jess

  13. #28
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    Rohrer01

    For the sake of pure information on heredity of this disease, my new daughter-in-law has scoliosis and had to be fused at 16. Her father also has scoliosis as well as an uncle that also needed to be fused. My son had JIS that self resolved. Obviously they are concerned about having children. In this case the hereditary component seems so overwhelmingly obvious. I have concerns for my future grandchildren as well. I have it, my daughter has it, my son "had" it, my paternal grandmother had it, my maternal aunt has kyphosis, my niece has it. These are just the family members that I know about. Some families have many more affected people than other families.
    The fact that many members of your family suffer from Scoliosis could be entirely the result of unfortunate heredity. But it wouldn't have to be heredity. Family members share a lot more than genes. When you give birth you populate your child with your bacteria. If you've got something unhealthy in your system guess who gets it?

    Here is another example.
    Likelihood of transmitting Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans and Porphyromonas gingivalis in families with periodontitis.

    This study examined the frequency of spouse-to-spouse and parent-child transmission of the periodontal pathogens Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans (124 subjects in 47 families) and Porphyromonas gingivalis (78 subjects in 31 families). The two test organisms were recovered from subgingival and tongue surface specimens using established microbiological techniques. Arbitrarily primed polymerase chain reaction (AP-PCR) was used to genetically characterize isolates of the test species. The probability of isolating identical AP-PCR types of A. actinomycetemcomitans and P. gingivalis in family members by chance was estimated from the AP-PCR genotype distribution of the two species among unrelated individuals. A probability of 5% or less for occurrence by chance alone suggests intra-familial transmission. With a bacterium-positive spouse, A. actinomycetemcomitans revealed inter-spousal transmission in 4/11 (36%) married couples and P. gingivalis in 2/10 (20%) married couples. Parent-child transmission of A. actinomycetemcomitans took place in 6/19 (32%) families. P. gingivalis was not transmitted from parent to child in any of the study families. The intra-familial transmission of A. actinomycetemcomitans and P. gingivalis may in part explain a familial pattern of periodontitis and may have important prophylactic and treatment implications.
    It didn't take me long to stir up my adversaries like the old days.

    I'll leave you all alone until another great news story like Richard III pops up again.
    Last edited by Dingo; 02-06-2013 at 08:07 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Scott is doing great. It's been about 3 months since Scott's last visit and to my eyes his back appears unchanged.
    Have you posted a full "How Scott is doing" post on here lately? I'm curious how things are going.

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    Dingo,
    Comparing bacterial gingivites bacteria to scoliosis? That's apples and rocks. My niece lived nowhere near me. I've had little contact with my aunt and my grandmother was a germaphobe! So if we all shared some pathogen passed on from generation to generation, then why aren't there more affected people? That makes little sense to me. Besides, how would I get infected by my father? He didn't give birth to me. Are you saying that he got his germs from his mother, then infected my mother who, in turn, infected me?

    I do understand your logic. It took them a long time to connect the Epstien-Barr virus to chronic fatigue and lupus, Lyme's disease to arthritis, facial paralysis, and chronic pain syndrome. However, you don't see these diseases running in families like you see in scoliosis.

    There are many, many other threads where we have discussed this very topic. I can't say dogmatically that there isn't some microbial trigger. I'm pretty sure I can say that, if there is, it's not handed down via transmission from one family member to another. If that were the case, all of the promiscuity that goes on in the world would pretty much guarantee that everyone was infected with the pathogen. That would leave us with the most logical option of tracing genetic heritability. It would also shoot down any idea that a germ causing pathogen would create scoliosis in any susceptible individual since there are quite possibly unaffected individuals with high scoliscores. I would like to see data on that, since unaffected kids aren't given a scoliscore supposedly for that reason.

    Tonibunny,
    It's interesting what you found about King Henry's line. However, aren't they two totally separate families?
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

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