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  • #16
    Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    Elongate, Sharon.
    I am not familiar with any claims from any PT corner about being able to address very high thoracic curves. If that's true I can believe it. Whereas you can physically attempt to bend out a T, L, of TL curve, it may be physically impossible to bend laterally above the shoulder blade area to even hope to bend it out. I don't know. Dr. McIntire ceertainly would.

    I am trying it now... trying to just bend the spine laterally above the shoulder blades and below the neck. I can't do it but it may just be I am inept. Can you try it?

    I am assuming that if you can't bend a portion of the spine then it is not accessible to PT but I don't know that. Maybe you could overdevelop one side and try to pull the spine that way but I have no idea if that would even work. I really don't know.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
      Very useful, Rohrer...there are many reports like this. I have high hopes for you doing a Martha Hawes on your own curves. If you read the Schroth book, you'll be attracted by the sound reasoning. Commit to doing a few of the fundamentals for a month and you'll see and feel the difference. Take the reasoning here:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16759413
      Simple, demystifying, would put more than a few surgeons out of business. Schroth is in tandem with Hawes.
      Sorry, Tom.

      I missed your post. This study was really a review of already published material. It's nice to get it all in one place. However, when one interprets several studies, they can choose to leave out whichever material they want. She seems to be saying dogmatically that these curves can all be cured if caught early. I don't believe this to be true, but it does feed into my gripe. Doctors are not catching these things early enough. In my opinion a good many AIS cases are really undiagnosed JIS cases, including my own.

      But there is also a natural course of events. My son was diagnosed at a very young age with a small curve. I watched him like a hawk at home for any rib hump development or uneven shoulders or pelvis. He later, as a teen, had a snowboarding accident and hurt his back. I took him in for x-rays and the curve was completely GONE. So the natural history suggests that many of these smaller curves do self-correct. Granted exercises won't hurt anyone and my son is one that enjoys exercises. He mainly lifts weights, but he also enjoys running and hiking, biking and other things. He is in excellent shape. So did his own form of physical activity "cure" his curve or would it have happened on its own? No one can say for sure.

      But the article directly mentions that there should be growth left to alter the course of the curve. I'm not saying that it can't be done in an adult as we have the example of the other poster, TOscoliosis, who so nicely posted his stretching exercises. But if you look at his x-rays, you can also see that where he has improvement in the lumbar, he has created an increasing curve in the thoracic region. In my unprofessional opinion, there is usually a trade-off in adults messing with their curves. Have you seen my x-rays?

      I think this is an excellent article for Scott McPhee. It lays out, I believe almost perfectly, what he was trying to say with his research. If you don't mind, I think I'll pass it his way via PM, as I feel that I discouraged his efforts. I think the affirmation that his loading theory is already recognized will make him feel better.
      Be happy!
      We don't know what tomorrow brings,
      but we are alive today!

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
        Elongate, Sharon.
        How would one go about elongating the spine between T1 and T6? Physical therapists and my pediatric orthos tried to elongate with traction. I used a cervical traction device twice a day for years with absolutely no results whatsoever.

        This is the MOST inflexible area of the spine. Bracing doesn't work because the shoulder girdle is in the way. The only way I can think that elongation would work would be to do something surgical like Elias had done with a release of sorts and halo traction.

        If I lay on an incline plane, I can most certainly feel the lumbar and lower thoracic stretch, while at the same time feeling a crunching pressure on the upper thoracic. That's really bad. So in theory, elongate sounds good. But how?
        Be happy!
        We don't know what tomorrow brings,
        but we are alive today!

        Comment


        • #19
          Roher, have you ever tried with an (qualified) Osteopath?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by flerc View Post
            Roher, have you ever tried with an (qualified) Osteopath?
            Yes. He did spinal manipulations and electrical stimulation on the convexities of my curves to try to build up the muscle mass and hopefully straighten the curves, especially the upper, major curve. He also used a lift in my shoe to try to put a more even load on my spine. None of that had any effect, either.
            Be happy!
            We don't know what tomorrow brings,
            but we are alive today!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              I am not familiar with any claims from any PT corner about being able to address very high thoracic curves. If that's true I can believe it. Whereas you can physically attempt to bend out a T, L, of TL curve, it may be physically impossible to bend laterally above the shoulder blade area to even hope to bend it out. I don't know. Dr. McIntire ceertainly would.
              I am trying it now... trying to just bend the spine laterally above the shoulder blades and below the neck. I can't do it but it may just be I am inept. Can you try it?
              I am assuming that if you can't bend a portion of the spine then it is not accessible to PT but I don't know that. Maybe you could overdevelop one side and try to pull the spine that way but I have no idea if that would even work. I really don't know.
              Reasoning through those questions is moving in the correct direction Sharon.
              Many non-invasive exercise based treatments promote elongation of the spine; elongation 'opens up the curves', unloads them, removes the asymmetrical growth plate retarding forces. In an elongated state, patients develop muscles for the strength and endurance to hold the elongation. Doing it repeatedly, integrates the neuromuscular systems and the subconscious postural/proprioceptive systems. Elongation can be done all the way up to S1, therefore high enough to address even the highest TC. So, asking me to bend above the shoulder blade is a red-herring. However, as I'm typing, I'm bending my neck and, by adjusting my shoulders, can also bend/exert lateral pressure on the high thoracic spine. Far better, however (again), to de-rotate the high thoracic spine (and all the way down for that matter). De-rotation--another modality common to many non-invasive methods--can be readily achieved on high thoracic curves: it is common knowledge that derotationg a scoliotically rotated spine is an incremental process; e.g., derotating the SHOULDERS levers the HIGH thoracic spine; derotation ITSELF corrects lateral curvature.
              Muscularly "over-developing" one side, as you suggest, can also correct high, medium and low curves. Asymmetrical pull on the spine progresses curves; it can pull correctively. The goal, intuitively, would be to eventually achieve balanced pull to maintain a corrected spine in optimum alignment.
              07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
              11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
              05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
              12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
              05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

              Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                How would one go about elongating the spine between T1 and T6?
                Hi Rohrer
                I'm rushing at the moment--three kids to train--so apologies for the hasty response.

                For example:
                Schroth has a particular wallbar hanging exercise to elongate all the way to the base of the skull. (Can't do it with Tamzin because of her brain hernia, but I've seen another girl use it for 4 weeks.) Schroth also incorporates an "occipital push" into its adaptable "auto-self-correction" (cf., SEAS and SOSORT) routine. Lying on the side of the TC and exerting direct lateral force effectively elongates the high thoracic spine. To apply corrective lateral force on a high TC does NOT require exerting direct lateral force on the apex of the curve--force applied as high as possible will translate up to the apex.

                I could go on, but really am pushed for time....

                Tom
                07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post

                  This is the MOST inflexible area of the spine.
                  Is that correct? I thought that the most flexible part of the spine is the lower lumbar area, with decreasing flexibility moving up.

                  --Linda
                  Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                  Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                    Yes. He did spinal manipulations and electrical stimulation on the convexities of my curves to try to build up the muscle mass and hopefully straighten the curves, especially the upper, major curve. He also used a lift in my shoe to try to put a more even load on my spine. None of that had any effect, either.
                    QUICK NOTE: I've read that using a shoe lift can mal-affect thoracic curves.
                    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                      Is that correct? I thought that the most flexible part of the spine is the lower lumbar area, with decreasing flexibility moving up.
                      Linda, read it more closely. She was suggesting the upper T spine is the most INflexible area and I can certainly believe that. I am confident she would agree that the lumbar is the most flexible.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
                        Hi Rohrer
                        I'm rushing at the moment--three kids to train--so apologies for the hasty response.

                        For example:
                        Schroth has a particular wallbar hanging exercise to elongate all the way to the base of the skull. (Can't do it with Tamzin because of her brain hernia, but I've seen another girl use it for 4 weeks.) Schroth also incorporates an "occipital push" into its adaptable "auto-self-correction" (cf., SEAS and SOSORT) routine. Lying on the side of the TC and exerting direct lateral force effectively elongates the high thoracic spine. To apply corrective lateral force on a high TC does NOT require exerting direct lateral force on the apex of the curve--force applied as high as possible will translate up to the apex.

                        I could go on, but really am pushed for time....

                        Tom
                        So that translates into the years of cervical traction that I did. If you pull on the upper spine (C-spine), it pulls on the upper T-spine. That was their theory, too. But the traction had no effect.
                        Last edited by rohrer01; 01-31-2012, 04:31 PM.
                        Be happy!
                        We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                        but we are alive today!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by hdugger
                          I think you're both saying the same thing - there's not much movement in the upper spine.
                          Yes, you and Pooka1 got it right.
                          Be happy!
                          We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                          but we are alive today!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
                            QUICK NOTE: I've read that using a shoe lift can mal-affect thoracic curves.
                            He was trying to make up for the leg length discrepancy and even out the pelvis. It was also the 1980's... they did what they could.
                            Last edited by rohrer01; 02-06-2012, 07:04 AM. Reason: put the full YEAR, so no one would confuse year with an 80* curve.
                            Be happy!
                            We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                            but we are alive today!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                              So that translates into the years of cervical traction that I did. If you pull on the upper spine (C-spine), it pulls on the upper T-spine. That was their theory, too. But the traction had no effect.
                              I had no idea that traction was used as a conservative method for scoliosis treatment. Wow.

                              I am wondering if what Tom is talking about is equivalent or not and if it has ever been shown to work permanently in growing kids with before and after radiographs. That area of the spine seems so inaccessible.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by hdugger
                                I think you're both saying the same thing - there's not much movement in the upper spine.
                                Thanks. For some reason, I read "flexible" instead of "inflexible".
                                Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                                Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                                Comment

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