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Thread: A Schroth Study?

  1. #1
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    A Schroth Study?

    Has anyone seen this?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16155663

    It was on "Spine Harmony" website. I know there have been people asking about Schroth studies and wondering why there aren't any. I don't know how reliable this information is as it has a very small sample number. But, hey, it's something, useful or not.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 01-28-2012 at 05:40 PM. Reason: spelling Harmony NOT Hormony

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    There have been plenty of short-term studies published, but since the therapy has been around for 80+ years, there should be at least a few long-term studies.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
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    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    There have been plenty of short-term studies published, but since the therapy has been around for 80+ years, there should be at least a few long-term studies.
    Indeed. That's why Schroth is more vulnerable than some of these other PT modalities to criticism. They have no excuse, especially for the ~10 year period when they had a capable researcher at the helm and there were ~30,000 warm bodies coming through the doors.

    No excuse WHATSOEVER.

    In this case, absence of evidence might indeed be evidence of absence for the straight AIS cases at least which I am guessing are the bulk of the patients.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Hi Rohrer,

    Thanks for posting the study. That's very interesting. I know that my daughter was able to correct her postural defects from scoliosis over the years of her night time bracing while being coached by her ballet teacher. I know personally that it can be done. My daughter's curve size didn't change during that time, but you really couldn't tell she has scoliosis by looking at her at this point.

    Regarding the lack of longterm study criticisms:

    Funny, we have to rely on two Scandinavian countries for long-term efficacy studies of bracing. I suggested a study using the Scoliscore for the people who have been in the ten year old successful bracing program at the Mayo Clinic and here was Linda's response:

    "LOL... after you've found all the people (especially women, many of whom change their last names) who were included in a study cohort from some years ago, I'm sure someone would love to do that study. "

    and


    "I was laughing because you so oversimplified the issue. The issues include (but probably are not limited to):

    The need for IRB approval to try to find the patients.
    Funds for finding the people
    Overcoming the fact that previous attempts at finding patients who participated in research many years previously have been largely unsuccessful.
    Many of the patients will not have appropriate insurance, so the researchers would need funds to bring patients in to survey and x-ray them.
    Many of the patients will have no interest in participating in additional research. (For example, patients of the ProDISC-C trial have been offered $500 plus expenses for a single follow-up visit (plus a $200 bonus, for a total of $1,200 for 2 sequential yearly visits), and a large number are still not interested.) "
    So the same issues don't apply in Europe I guess.

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    That doesn't make sense. I would gladly follow up. Why aren't people interested in their own health, yet alone get PAID for free medical care? Wow, I find that hard to believe, not saying that it's not true. You would think that if the researchers were that interested in long term follow-ups, they would make that clear in the consent forms and use social security numbers to find people. Believe me, people CAN be found. It's not that hard to do IF one is really that interested.

    I think the overall message is to catch it early for bracing and be consistent long term with the treatment exercises. That's hard for a lot of people to do simply because they want to forget about it and get on with their lives. I kind of fell into the "forget about it" category in my early 20's. But it was always in the back of my mind and I was sorely reminded when I had debilitating flare-ups.

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    I don't see what would be wrong with asking for SS numbers in the U.S. I think all of the doctor's offices have it anyway, maybe not, I don't know. It seems that everyone asks for that number, why not people doing research?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Very useful, Rohrer...there are many reports like this. I have high hopes for you doing a Martha Hawes on your own curves. If you read the Schroth book, you'll be attracted by the sound reasoning. Commit to doing a few of the fundamentals for a month and you'll see and feel the difference. Take the reasoning here:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16759413
    Simple, demystifying, would put more than a few surgeons out of business. Schroth is in tandem with Hawes.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I don't see what would be wrong with asking for SS numbers in the U.S. I think all of the doctor's offices have it anyway, maybe not, I don't know. It seems that everyone asks for that number, why not people doing research?
    Unfortunately, it would be a HIPAA violation here in the U.S. You can ASK for a patient's SSN, if you get approval from the local Committee on Human Research, but most patients won't allow it to be used for research purposes. There has been a lot of talk about a national spine registry (similar to what they have in Sweden). It would have to be on a completely voluntary basis. Unfortunately, most people aren't nearly as open as us folks here. We have to essentially stalk patients to get them to complete questionnaires at 2 years postop. It surprises me, but that is truly how a large majority are. Unless they're symptomatic, most patients have no desire to complete questionnaires. Even when I try to guilt some of them into it (you're helping your fellow patients yada yada), many will not respond. Believe it or not, that even extends to studies where patients are paid. The ProDISC-C study (an artificial disc for the neck) was required, by the FDA, to extend the study for 2 years more than the original plan. In order to get patients to return, they were offered $500 per visit, a $250 bonus if they came back for both visits, as well as airfare and housing for patients outside of the immediate area. We haven't been able to get anywhere near all of the patients to return, even after repeated phone calls and letters. Who the heck wouldn't accept $1,250 plus expenses for about 4 hours of their time? I don't get it, but that's how it is.

    --Linda
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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    rohr, i thought your spine was too far gone for any
    exercises to reduce your curves in any significant way....?
    and...for exercise to have a chance to make real change, does the spine not
    have to be flexible, as in a child or adolescent...?

    without long term studies, who knows if any curve reductions last....
    permanently, i mean....?

    jess

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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Unfortunately, it would be a HIPAA violation here in the U.S. You can ASK for a patient's SSN, if you get approval from the local Committee on Human Research, but most patients won't allow it to be used for research purposes. There has been a lot of talk about a national spine registry (similar to what they have in Sweden). It would have to be on a completely voluntary basis. Unfortunately, most people aren't nearly as open as us folks here. We have to essentially stalk patients to get them to complete questionnaires at 2 years postop. It surprises me, but that is truly how a large majority are. Unless they're symptomatic, most patients have no desire to complete questionnaires. Even when I try to guilt some of them into it (you're helping your fellow patients yada yada), many will not respond. Believe it or not, that even extends to studies where patients are paid. The ProDISC-C study (an artificial disc for the neck) was required, by the FDA, to extend the study for 2 years more than the original plan. In order to get patients to return, they were offered $500 per visit, a $250 bonus if they came back for both visits, as well as airfare and housing for patients outside of the immediate area. We haven't been able to get anywhere near all of the patients to return, even after repeated phone calls and letters. Who the heck wouldn't accept $1,250 plus expenses for about 4 hours of their time? I don't get it, but that's how it is.

    --Linda
    That's just UNBELIEVABLE! What's wrong with people?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    rohr, i thought your spine was too far gone for any
    exercises to reduce your curves in any significant way....?
    and...for exercise to have a chance to make real change, does the spine not
    have to be flexible, as in a child or adolescent...?

    without long term studies, who knows if any curve reductions last....
    permanently, i mean....?

    jess
    I have a curve type that is unresponsive to everything...with my luck probably surgery, too! I just posted the study because I remembered someone on here posting that there weren't any Schroth studies. I guess they meant large scale and long term studies. I found it interesting for others, perhaps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I have a curve type that is unresponsive to everything...with my luck probably surgery, too! I just posted the study because I remembered someone on here posting that there weren't any Schroth studies. I guess they meant large scale and long term studies. I found it interesting for others, perhaps.
    Does any PT modality even claim to be able to address high T curves like yours? It may be physically impossible to access that part of the spine through PT. Dr. McIntire would know.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Does any PT modality even claim to be able to address high T curves like yours? It may be physically impossible to access that part of the spine through PT. Dr. McIntire would know.
    If there is, no one has told me about it. There used to be ONE exercise that I could do that would reduce the pain as my muscles got stronger. I can no longer do that exercise since my curves have progressed as it sends my scapulae painfully over my rib humps and spinous processes. I tried it, despite the pain at first, thinking that if I could just get past the initial pain it would eventually help again. After a good couple of weeks or more, it only made the bone pain worse. I used to be able to do this exercise and start feeling some muslce relief after about only a week. But not anymore. I guess I should have never quit doing the exercise. Compliance for life is a HARD thing, as sometimes when you're feeling well, you just want to forget about it and "pretend" you don't have it.

    When I was a teen, the docs said they don't even make a brace that could address that curve. They talked about bracing me but: 1) No brace would work. And 2) I was too near skeletal maturity.

    So as far as your question, NO there isn't, not even for pain.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    If there is, no one has told me about it. There used to be ONE exercise that I could do that would reduce the pain as my muscles got stronger. I can no longer do that exercise since my curves have progressed as it sends my scapulae painfully over my rib humps and spinous processes. I tried it, despite the pain at first, thinking that if I could just get past the initial pain it would eventually help again. After a good couple of weeks or more, it only made the bone pain worse. I used to be able to do this exercise and start feeling some muslce relief after about only a week. But not anymore. I guess I should have never quit doing the exercise. Compliance for life is a HARD thing, as sometimes when you're feeling well, you just want to forget about it and "pretend" you don't have it.

    When I was a teen, the docs said they don't even make a brace that could address that curve. They talked about bracing me but: 1) No brace would work. And 2) I was too near skeletal maturity.

    So as far as your question, NO there isn't, not even for pain.
    Wow. That's a shame that conservative options for pain relief are largely not availble for some curves. The ROM of some parts of the spine are simply less than that for others. Life is very unfair.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Does any PT modality even claim to be able to address high T curves like yours? It may be physically impossible to access that part of the spine through PT. Dr. McIntire would know.
    Elongate, Sharon.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

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