Dr. Douglas Kiester discusses MAGEC - Remote Control Spinal Deformity System

[Ballet Mom]

Shall we all talk about the futility of listening to some pompous, arrogant "scientist" who doesn't even read an interview before deciding that the actual professors of medicine who are behind the research are a bunch of idiots?

How ridiculous that anyone even thinks anything that Pooka says is the least big credible.

[Ballet Mom]

Here is an interesting read on what exercise does to soft tissue i.e. ligaments and tendons. This directly applies to Dr. Kiester's theory on why Torso Rotation works.

Tendon and ligament adaptation to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization




Translation: Exercise makes ligaments physically larger and stronger.


Translation: Exercise makes ligaments stiffer and tougher.


Translation: Immobilization (this probably applies to bracing) reduces the physical size, stiffness and strength of ligaments.

That's very interesting Dingo. I wonder if that could possibly be why ballet dancers and rhythmic gymnasts end up with scoliosis in higher numbers. Maybe their activities which work the spine a lot end up toughening up the ligamentum flavum so that it doesn't stretch easily in their growth spurts, and somehow with the laxity of their other ligaments (or the other side of the ligamentum flavum?) causes some sort of an unequal balance or weakness that helps to create the curve. And perhaps that's why the nighttime bracing helped my daughter....the immobilization reduced the stiffness and strength of those ligaments along with stretching the ligaments out during the night....hmmmm.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I wish I knew more about the anatomy of the spine, it would be very interesting to ponder the causes and effects.

[rohrer01]

I don't know much about ballet, but I didn't think it was a one-sided workout (I may be showing my ignorance here). I would expect that people that participate in sports that make use of a dominant side such as baseball or football.

[flerc]

I’m conscious that this may be an obvious or fool question, but Magec may be seen as an adjustable inner brace that also allows any kind of movements?

[Pooka1]

I’m conscious that this may be an obvious or fool question, but Magec may be seen as an adjustable inner brace that also allows any kind of movements?

I don't see how that can be. All these growth rods are stiff in order to work by distracting the ends (pushing the ends away from each other), like the old Harrington rods distract the ends. I hear there is a problem with autofusion, perhaps because they don't allow movement. Who knows. Someone with a child who has growth rods would know.

Also Kiester made some comment in the interview about needing to restrict movement or whatever while the rods are in place. Re-read that.

[flerc]

I don't see how that can be. All these growth rods are stiff in order to work by distracting the ends (pushing the ends away from each other), like the old Harrington rods distract the ends. I hear there is a problem with autofusion, perhaps because they don't allow movement. Who knows. Someone with a child who has growth rods would know.

Also Kiester made some comment in the interview about needing to restrict movement or whatever while the rods are in place. Re-read that.

I have read about that activities need to limited. I didn't know if it refers only to intensity and duration or also kind of movements, but seems to be logic that no all movements may be possible to do. Thanks.

[Dingo]

That's very interesting Dingo. I wonder if that could possibly be why ballet dancers and rhythmic gymnasts end up with scoliosis in higher numbers. Maybe their activities which work the spine a lot end up toughening up the ligamentum flavum so that it doesn't stretch easily in their growth spurts, and somehow with the laxity of their other ligaments (or the other side of the ligamentum flavum?) causes some sort of an unequal balance or weakness that helps to create the curve. And perhaps that's why the nighttime bracing helped my daughter....the immobilization reduced the stiffness and strength of those ligaments along with stretching the ligaments out during the night....hmmmm.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting. I wish I knew more about the anatomy of the spine, it would be very interesting to ponder the causes and effects.

It's absolutely a possibility. Maybe bracing at night provides some stability while your daughter's back grows and no bracing during the day allows her ligaments to grow strong. Nobody knows for sure but one thing is certain. Scientists are a lot closer to understanding why children have Scoliosis than they used to be.

[flerc]

[URL="http://www.orthopaedicsurgery.uci.edu/faculty/kiester.html"]
So why don't scoliosis braces work better? No one really notices, but while the brace is being fit, the orthotist pushes the side bend toward the midline. This causes the patient to stand up straighter, and even extend their back. The brace then locks them in this position. The x-ray in the brace looks better, because the curve is less,

Finally someone saying this!!!! Of course, the brace should to keep the spine enough straight; which could be the purpose if not? I believe that not all orthotist test this. Height should to be enough higher with the brace.. if the spine is not enough flexible to allow that, the brace should not to be used.. otherwise would be the same than using a gypsum in a broken leg without aligning the bones before!

This seems to be the idea behind the EDF tecnique around 4 decades before http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ight=edf+flerc of course without enough technology yet to also allow movements.

[flerc]

Ok, what I said referred to all the components I know (I forgot joints) of the back having to do with the flexiblity, regardless the position with respect to the spine and that may be ‘released’ in some way, not necessary cutting it, as seems to do Myofascial Release with fascias, Sohier with joints, Schroth with muscles.. surely it has not sense to think in discs and I don’t know about sternum.. may be more ‘components’?

Yes it has sense in same way. Discs decompression may be seen as a release and the same also occurs with vertebras.. such decompression would leads to a normal growth without deformities.. surely all the 'components' are released in some way when spine remains straight.

[Ballet Mom]

I don't know much about ballet, but I didn't think it was a one-sided workout (I may be showing my ignorance here). I would expect that people that participate in sports that make use of a dominant side such as baseball or football.

Ballet does indeed repeat each exercise on each side, both left and right. However, most kids have a dominant side, usually the right, where it is easier to do what is required. For instance, if the students are required to do 32 fouettes, they may do more than 32 easily turning to the right, but they may fall out of it after say five turns to the left. So even though ballet tries to work both sides equally, in actuality it doesn't...except for maybe the most talented or perhaps professional dancers.

I was actually speaking about posterior versus anterior, though, in my comment. So the ballet dancers/rhythmic gymnasts who have the lax joints end up toughening up only the ligamentous flavum at the very posterior side of the spine, but don't end up toughening up the other lax ligaments anteriorly or elsewhere due to the movements not actually affecting or reaching those ligaments as much. I thought perhaps the ligamentous flavum continued to the anterior side of the spine, but in a better drawing I see that there are other ligaments anteriorly. There has to be something about the difference in the toughness of the ligaments creating some sort of imbalance/weakness because those ballet dancers without the lax joints don't seem to develop scoliosis like the lax ligamented dancers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOdE0P7K0HM Fouettes

[Ballet Mom]

Who knows, maybe it is that right sided dominance that causes a right sided scoliosis in ballet dancers? If so, I wonder what they'd be doing in rhythmic gymastics to develop a leftside scoliosis as suggested by that one study?

I should mention that the sidedness usually isn't as extreme as falling out after five left fouettes...it usually shows up more in not lifting the leg as high to the left until they get older, etc. Most kids are usually able to do most of the stuff acceptably well to their left....it's just harder for them on that side.

[flerc]

If Magec really works and all other growth rods does some kind of fusion, then a new paradigm arises in the scoliosis world. All resources should to be used in this direction.. the new paradigm should to be fully understood!.

I'm thinking it seems to be in fact a mixed of 2 old principles: 'stretching and hold the spine straight' and 'release the back components (muscles, facias..)'. Two very related principles, but I think not exactly the same. Of course what is new, is that solution according to those principles.

If when the rods are removed, the spine continues straight, then those principles would be right. Why works? Certainly it seems that so many explanations may be mentioned.. from the stretching of tight muscles or ligaments, to the absense of the scoliosis vicious cycle.. Scientists should to know and explain that.

[Ballet Mom]

I was actually speaking about posterior versus anterior, though, in my comment. So the ballet dancers/rhythmic gymnasts who have the lax joints end up toughening up only the ligamentous flavum at the very posterior side of the spine, but don't end up toughening up the other lax ligaments anteriorly or elsewhere due to the movements not actually affecting or reaching those ligaments as much. I thought perhaps the ligamentous flavum continued to the anterior side of the spine, but in a better drawing I see that there are other ligaments anteriorly. There has to be something about the difference in the toughness of the ligaments creating some sort of imbalance/weakness because those ballet dancers without the lax joints don't seem to develop scoliosis like the lax ligamented dancers.

Maybe it's just as simple as this. Since those with lax joints and lax ligaments are the ones in ballet who tend to develop scoliosis more than those with non-lax ligaments and joints, perhaps it is just the lax anterior ligaments of the spine allow for the overgrowth of the anterior spine when the ligamentous flavum is tight. Those without the lax anterior spinal ligaments wouldn't be as likely to develop the anterior overgrowth because their anterior ligaments don't stretch as much to allow the overgrowth and the curve to develop.

Any anatomy specialists around who think that's reasonable?

[TAMZTOM]

Maybe it's just as simple as this. Since those with lax joints and lax ligaments are the ones in ballet who tend to develop scoliosis more than those with non-lax ligaments and joints, perhaps it is just the lax anterior ligaments of the spine allow for the overgrowth of the anterior spine when the ligamentous flavum is tight. Those without the lax anterior spinal ligaments wouldn't be as likely to develop the anterior overgrowth because their anterior ligaments don't stretch as much to allow the overgrowth and the curve to develop.

Any anatomy specialists around who think that's reasonable?

Hi Ballet Mom
I'm not much of a specialist at anything, but sounds impeccably reasonable to me. So much so that you've send my empty mind racing off in other research areas. I don't know whether to thank you heartily, or have a lobotomy. :-)
PS: brace for Tamzin tomorrow, overall strength and basic ballet knowledge increasing at incredible rate, ballet teachers contacted...I can't hold the girl back!
Cheers
Tom

[Dingo]

..perhaps it is just the lax anterior ligaments of the spine allow for the overgrowth of the anterior spine when the ligamentous flavum is tight.

That's a good thought and hopefully Dr. Kiester's system will shed some light on the problem.

As the MAGEC implant slowly pulls the back into alignment does bone growth in the spine become closer to what is found in healthy children?

I think we'll know soon enough. Scientists are very excited about MAGEC and I'm sure they are eager to publish what they are learning.