Dr. Douglas Kiester discusses MAGEC - Remote Control Spinal Deformity System

[Pooka1]

Hey now, don't you be dissin my math and calling it philosophy. It's PURE UNADULTERATED LOGIC! lol You can prove everything, just about... except some of the physics mumbo jumbo that really gets far fetched and mostly unuseable in the real world. hee hee

Alrighty then!

Hey have you seen this? It can consistently bring moisture to my eyes... :-)

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathD...ng/Wigner.html

The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences

by Eugene Wigner

"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences," in Communications in Pure and Applied Mathematics, vol. 13, No. I (February 1960). New York: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. Copyright © 1960 by John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beautya beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as in poetry.

--BERTRAND RUSSELL, Study of Mathematics

[flerc]

There's not a "bunch of stuff" back there to release. You have muscles, tendons, nerves, blood vessels, bones, and ligaments as far as I know, unless I missed something really big in my anatomy classes.

Roher, I believe you forgot to mention the fascias.. maybe some people would also mention the internal organs.. I'm not sure at all.

[Dingo]

Here is an interesting read on what exercise does to soft tissue i.e. ligaments and tendons. This directly applies to Dr. Kiester's theory on why Torso Rotation works.

Tendon and ligament adaptation to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization

While experimental studies have clearly shown that tendons and ligaments respond to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization, no theory has yet been established to explain these responses. This study attempts to establish such a theory. We apply a model used previously to describe tendon and ligament growth and development (6) to predict changes in the geometric and material properties of tendons and ligaments due to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization. The model predictions are compared with the results of experimental exercise and immobilization studies performed by other investigators, and implications for basic control mechanisms of tendon and ligament adaptation are discussed.

For both the immature and mature cases, the simulations predict increases of approximately 14 percent in the tendon cross-sectional area, modulus, and strength. Although the experimental studies provide results only for time points at the beginning and end of the exercise periods, the simulation results are consistent with the available data.

Translation: Exercise makes ligaments physically larger and stronger.

Figure 5 illustrates the effects of exercise, immobilization, and remobilization on structural properties such as stiffness and failure force as predicted by our simulations. Taking normal growth and development as the control, the effects are essentially the same for the immature and mature cases. Exercise leads to a moderate increase in the stiffness and failure force. Immobilization leads to a significant decrease in these properties, which rapidly return to normal with remobilization. Woo and colleagues (21) have proposed similar exercise, immobilization, and remobilization effects for ligament structural properties based on their experimental studies. Our results corroborate the relationships they have proposed

Translation: Exercise makes ligaments stiffer and tougher.

For the mature case, the simulations predict a significant decrease in the area, modulus, and strength during immobilization and a reversal of these changes during remobilization. These trends reflect the changes observed by Woo et al. For the immature case, the simulations predict similar rapid losses of modulus and strength during immobilization. However, because the area encounters a biological lower bound that is increasing, the tendon area increases in the immature animal despite immobilization. These predictions are consistent with the findings of Walsh et al. although the simulation predicts smaller increases in the cross-sectional area than were observed experimentally.

Translation: Immobilization (this probably applies to bracing) reduces the physical size, stiffness and strength of ligaments.

[rohrer01]

Roher, I believe you forgot to mention the fascias.. maybe some people would also mention the internal organs.. I'm not sure at all.

I was just making a point. There's all kinds of connective tissue everywhere in our bodies. I don't know of any internal organs located behind the spine. The kidneys are the closest things I can think of (but they aren't "behind" the spine - more like next to and anterior to the bony processes) and they certainly wouldn't be cutting those loose!

[flerc]

Ok, what I said referred to all the components I know (I forgot joints) of the back having to do with the flexiblity, regardless the position with respect to the spine and that may be ‘released’ in some way, not necessary cutting it, as seems to do Myofascial Release with fascias, Sohier with joints, Schroth with muscles.. surely it has not sense to think in discs and I don’t know about sternum.. may be more ‘components’?

[Pooka1]

Here is an interesting read on what exercise does to soft tissue i.e. ligaments and tendons. This directly applies to Dr. Kiester's theory on why Torso Rotation works.

All of that counters Kiester's argument. It tends to disprove Kiester's hypothesis because it is making the ligament more resistant, not less, thereby causing more rotation and more curvature.

Let's see what Dr. McIntire thinks.

[Pooka1]

Ok, what I said referred to all the components I know (I forgot joints) of the back having to do with the flexiblity, regardless the position with respect to the spine and that may be ‘released’ in some way, not necessary cutting it, as seems to do Myofascial Release with fascias, Sohier with joints, Schroth with muscles.. surely it has not sense to think in discs and I don’t know about sternum.. may be more ‘components’?

This right here is why I didn't go into biology. :-0

[tonibunny]

There's not a "bunch of stuff" back there to release. You have muscles, tendons, nerves, blood vessels, bones, and ligaments as far as I know, unless I missed something really big in my anatomy classes. I doubt that they would cut the tendons as they hold muscles to bone and the muscle would be useless after that.

As I have mentioned before, a friend of mine had a "posterior release" which involved removing the discs (as in an anterior release) posterially. It was the same procedure, just a different approach. I'm intrigued to read about anyone who has actually had a "posterior release" which did involve cutting ligaments instead - is there anyone who has had this done, or is this just speculation?

[Pooka1]

As I have mentioned before, a friend of mine had a "posterior release" which involved removing the discs (as in an anterior release) posterially.

Oh hey yes. I forgot. This anatomy stuff curdles my brain. :-)

So the "posterior release" doesn't have anything to do with ligaments apparently.

All such "releases," posterior, anterior, are disc removals maybe. One wonders why they don't just cut the offending ligament if Kiester is correct. They actually cut ligaments in horses for certain conditions and remarkably it is effective. It blows my mind.

Tonibunny, you are our toehold back to reality... we are floating freely here, untethered to any facts or reality. Thank you.

[Pooka1]

I'm intrigued to read about anyone who has actually had a "posterior release" which did involve cutting ligaments instead - is there anyone who has had this done, or is this just speculation?

No a mother mentioned her son had a posterior release and folks just assumed it meant cutting the ligaments in an effort to connect it to Kiester's idea of tight ligament tethering. The mother did not say the surgeon told her it was cutting ligaments. She was going to find out what exactly it was but you responded first.

[rohrer01]

No a mother mentioned her son had a posterior release and folks just assumed it meant cutting the ligaments in an effort to connect it to Kiester's idea of tight ligament tethering. The mother did not say the surgeon told her it was cutting ligaments. She was going to find out what exactly it was but you responded first.

Ah, but the comments on that thread had NOTHING to do with Keister. They were simply about a boy getting treatment and we don't know what was done for sure. Elisa needs to fill us in, but probably won't want to get bogged down in this mess. I certainly am not dogmatic about what was done. It could have been discs, although I find it a little hard to swallow as the surfaces of the vertebrae bleed when a disc is removed and not filled in right away with something to help it fuse. I would be very intrigued if they would let a young man have oozing, bleeding vertebrae for a month, unless there were some way to cauterize the areas to stop the bleeding. Bone bleeding is very hard to stop.

[Pooka1]

Ah, but the comments on that thread had NOTHING to do with Keister. They were simply about a boy getting treatment and we don't know what was done for sure. Elisa needs to fill us in, but probably won't want to get bogged down in this mess. I certainly am not dogmatic about what was done. It could have been discs, although I find it a little hard to swallow as the surfaces of the vertebrae bleed when a disc is removed and not filled in right away with something to help it fuse. I would be very intrigued if they would let a young man have oozing, bleeding vertebrae for a month, unless there were some way to cauterize the areas to stop the bleeding. Bone bleeding is very hard to stop.

I bet Tonibunny might know the the answer to this. Clearly if they are removing discs and that causes massive bleeding then they are stemming that flow. Maybe that problem isn't rocket surgery and was solved long ago. Who the hell knows? :-)

[tonibunny]

I had exactly the same treatment as Elias back in 1986 - though I had an anterior release rather than a posterior release. That anterior release involved a full open thoracotomy which was very tough on my (ten year old) body, and my friend's posterior release was a minimally invasive procedure compared to that.

As with Elias, I spent weeks in halo traction following the removal of the discs and prior to fusion surgery, and there were no problems with the surfaces of the vertebrae bleeding. So i do think it's likely that he also had discs removed in his "posterior release", but I'd be very interested to learn more if he actually did have ligaments cut etc.

[Pooka1]

I had exactly the same treatment as Elias back in 1986 - though I had an anterior release rather than a posterior release. That anterior release involved a full open thoracotomy which was very tough on my (ten year old) body, and my friend's posterior release was a minimally invasive procedure compared to that.

As with Elias, I spent weeks in halo traction following the removal of the discs and prior to fusion surgery, and there were no problems with the surfaces of the vertebrae bleeding. So i do think it's likely that he also had discs removed in his "posterior release", but I'd be very interested to learn more if he actually did have ligaments cut etc.

Okay I will try to remember this for next time. Thanks.

Best regards,
Sharon

[Pooka1]

Anterior release involves either open or video-assisted anterior release and discectomy. As annulus and disc space contents are excised, we strive to achieve an approximately 250-degree arc of release that extends from the near-side rib head to the far-side posterolateral body. Rib graft is then placed in the disc space to obtain fusion. Details about this technique have been published previously.6,25 Posterior spinal release includes removal of facet capsular tissue and facetectomy at the anticipated levels of posterior spinal fusion.

http://thescoliosisfoundation.org/files/CAQB83RO.pdf

I hope I posted that correctly... my eyes are glazed over and I can't see..