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Thread: Dr. Douglas Kiester discusses MAGEC - Remote Control Spinal Deformity System

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by leahdragonfly View Post
    I am curious about this "tight ligament" theory and how it relates to those of us scoli's who have a connective tissue disorder that results in ligament laxity and hyper mobile joints. It seems like this condition is the total opposite of the tight ligament theory. I have ligament laxity throughout my body, and when I had my surgery last year my surgeon told my husband I had the most flexible spine he had seen in an adult. This was not a good thing, because overly flexible equals unstable.

    Any comments?
    My comment is that you make a good point. My kids have ligament laxity and I was reading recently about some high percentage of AIS kids are hypermobile, much more that the general public. And they all don't have Marfans but there are many connective tissue disorders, most un-named as I recall. Tight ligaments as a cause of curvature and rotation may or may not be completely ruled out on that basis alone, I don't know. Not my field. The only hope we have of answering that question is McIntire. This may be why Kiester never showed this. He may have tried and failed but still thought it was correct so he continues to speak of it.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by leahdragonfly View Post
    I am curious about this "tight ligament" theory and how it relates to those of us scoli's who have a connective tissue disorder that results in ligament laxity and hyper mobile joints. It seems like this condition is the total opposite of the tight ligament theory. I have ligament laxity throughout my body, and when I had my surgery last year my surgeon told my husband I had the most flexible spine he had seen in an adult. This was not a good thing, because overly flexible equals unstable.

    Any comments?
    Joint hypermobility in children with idiopathic scoliosis

    JHM occurs more frequently in children with IS than in healthy sex and age matched controls. No relation of JHM with radiological parameters, treatment type and age was found. Systematically searched in IS children, JHM should be taken into account when physiotherapy is planned.
    I've seen this phenomenon mentioned many times. Maybe hypermobility indicates that the system that controls ligament development is dysregulated. My son is the exact opposite. From birth he was noticably stiff. But whether someone is hypermobile or very stiff it's an indication that something is wrong with the ligaments.

    Maybe some ligaments near the spine are hypermobile while others aren't. This extra imbalance increases the likelihood of curve progression for children with Scoliosis.

    Put simply maybe "regular" children have a normal and a tight side. Hypermobile children might have a loose and a tight side which makes the problem even worse.

    But that's just a guess. I doubt anyone knows.

    But whatever is really going on an increase in Scoliosis among kids with hypermobility is evidence that on some level ligaments play a part.
    Last edited by Dingo; 12-04-2011 at 12:57 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I mean what do parents of kids with scoliosis want more, a handle on what is causing the curvature and rotation or yet another book on medieval religious mumbo jumbo and edifying the "idiot" researchers at JPL on the lack of a Big Bang?

    I ask the jury...
    Well.. Iím not really sure if my English is so poor that I did not understand anything, Dr. Kiesler is in fact an ďidiotĒ (also Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia?) as I believe you are suggesting (but he is not a surgeon??), itís not true that experiment with a cadaver (I asked that), itís certainly only an undemonstreted theory, Magec never worked .. maybe my English is not so bad and also I'm an idiot.. It seemed so clear for me that Magec only works before growth is finished so it has not any interest for me. But anyway I want to know facts. If that experiment (as I interpreted it) was true, is an obvious conclusion for me (because my poor logic??) that the ligament was the cause in that case.

    Of course may be other causes in other cases. Congenital and neuromuscular scoliosis not seems to has nothing to do with this ligament. Ligament laxitud, Iím not sure if maybe called IS.. that laxitud would be the cause.. although Zlatta has not scoliosis http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...nts-have-to-do
    I beleive itís something as a medical similitud principle leading to believe that that case (if itís true) was not the only one with a scoliosis caused by that ligament so is reasonable to believe that this is the cause of IS.. at least in much cases. At least for a logic as mine.
    So the question for me is (regardless what is happening with Magec outcomes) THAT EXPERIMENT IS TRUE? Someone may answer that, please??

  4. #19
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    Leahdragonfly

    Alternate hypothesis

    1) Joint hypermobility is a benign, helpful trait that does not suggest ligament dysfunction. Nearly all children with hypermobility have healthy spines.

    2) Scoliosis is a nervous system disorder that deforms just one (or a few) key ligament(s) in the spine.

    Combine hypermobility with deformity and you've got a recipe for disaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Always happen that? Only with scoliosis or also without it?
    Hi Flerc,

    I think Dr. Kiester is saying that humans have developed natural defense mechanisms against Scoliosis or other diseases that deform the spine. If the spine becomes deformed the ligaments become hard like a bone to protect the spine from further curve progression. It's just one more piece of evidence that says it's never smart to bet against Mother Nature. 8-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Well.. Iím not really sure if my English is so poor that I did not understand anything, Dr. Kiesler is in fact an ďidiotĒ (also Dr. Behrooz Akbarnia?) as I believe you are suggesting (but he is not a surgeon??),
    No. I am saying that a surgeon who thinks he must fight with research cosmologists over whether or not the Big Bang occurred must think those research cosmologists are complete idiots for missing the evidence that the Big Bang never happened. If a random orthopedic surgeon wants to claim the Big Bang never happened on the basis of one piece of evidence (a bit of data that JPL published) then he better damn well have an explanation for all the other data consistent with a Big Bang about 13.7 billion years ago.

    I am getting the impression this Kiester guy, what with the talk of "beyond belief" archaeology, writing a book about medieval religious stuff, may not like the fact of something, anything, happening 13.7 billion years ago if he thinks the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. Just throwing that out there.

    itís not true that experiment with a cadaver (I asked that), itís certainly only an undemonstreted theory, Magec never worked .. maybe my English is not so bad and also I'm an idiot.. It seemed so clear for me that Magec only works before growth is finished so it has not any interest for me. But anyway I want to know facts. If that experiment (as I interpreted it) was true, is an obvious conclusion for me (because my poor logic??) that the ligament was the cause in that case.
    Kiester never showed that a tight ligament causes rotation and curvature. It is a fringe random idea even 25 years after Kiester suggested it as far as I can tell.

    scoliosis caused by that ligament so is reasonable to believe that this is the cause of IS.. at least in much cases.
    If idiopathic scoliosis was caused by a tight ligament then we would know that by now. Nobody besides Kiester "knows" that.

    So the question for me is (regardless what is happening with Magec outcomes) THAT EXPERIMENT IS TRUE? Someone may answer that, please??
    Like Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz," you could answer that question all along but didn't know you could. Just THINK. If something doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Hi Flerc,

    I think Dr. Kiester is saying that humans have developed natural defense mechanisms against Scoliosis or other diseases that deform the spine. If the spine becomes deformed the ligaments become hard like a bone to protect the spine from further curve progression. It's just one more piece of evidence that says it's never smart to bet against Mother Nature. 8-)
    Hi Dingo, is reasonable to believe that, but surgeons says that a curve > 50ļ will increase around 1ļ or 2ļ per year in adulthood, so it would not be so effective.
    But I ever heard that ligaments is what turn stiff the spine in adulthood. Maybe that with IS, that process begin before.. Maybe that process occurs also in normal spines, to decrease the possibility that a problem in discs lead to an adult scoliosis.
    Adults with a flexible spine has a greater increase of the curve? The ligament cutted in the cadaver was like a bone or it was of an adolescent? There are documents, photos, videos or something proving what happened in that experiment?
    I donít understand what is seen as a fact in medicine and what not.. is a strange science for me.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Hi Dingo, is reasonable to believe that, but surgeons says that a curve > 50ļ will increase around 1ļ or 2ļ per year in adulthood, so it would not be so effective.
    But I ever heard that ligaments is what turn stiff the spine in adulthood. Maybe that with IS, that process begin before.. Maybe that process occurs also in normal spines, to decrease the possibility that a problem in discs lead to an adult scoliosis.
    Adults with a flexible spine has a greater increase of the curve? The ligament cutted in the cadaver was like a bone or it was of an adolescent? There are documents, photos, videos or something proving what happened in that experiment?
    I donít understand what is seen as a fact in medicine and what not.. is a strange science for me.
    I believe the study is ahead of print so nobody has read it yet. All we can see is the abstract on pubmed.

    What is your native language? I think you speak English pretty good. I'm sure you speak English better than I speak your language. 8-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post

    I am getting the impression this Kiester guy, what with the talk of "beyond belief" archaeology, writing a book about medieval religious stuff, may not like the fact of something, anything, happening 13.7 billion years ago if he thinks the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. Just throwing that out there.

    Kiester never showed that a tight ligament causes rotation and curvature. It is a fringe random idea even 25 years after Kiester suggested it as far as I can tell.

    If idiopathic scoliosis was caused by a tight ligament then we would know that by now. Nobody besides Kiester "knows" that.

    'So the question for me is (regardless what is happening with Magec outcomes) THAT EXPERIMENT IS TRUE? Someone may answer that, please??'

    Like Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz," you could answer that question all along but didn't know you could. Just THINK. If something doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true.

    Iím more confused now. If something does make sense for someone or not, depends on knowledge and reasoning. The claim that carrying backpacks is good for people with scoliosis, might doesn't make sense for someone but may have sense for other considering more facts..
    A priori the ligament theory is reasonable for me and I believe or not in it depending on the outcom of that experiment. I suppose is not reasonable for you because you think that medical community should to know it since time ago, but why someone should to believe in a discipline unable to respond about the validity of that simple experiment?.. and an important surgeon seems to believe in the solution based in this conclusion.. it's not serious for me.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    but why someone should to believe in a discipline unable to respond about the validity of that simple experiment?
    Kiester didn't show anything. How can the medial community respond to nothing?
    Last edited by Pooka1; 12-04-2011 at 08:48 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    I believe the study is ahead of print so nobody has read it yet. All we can see is the abstract on pubmed.
    Maybe I'm loosing something. That experiment should to be now documented and should to be known, regardless the conclusion that someon may arrived based over it or not. Conclusion about that fact, might require a major analysis and we should to wait for it. But It must to be known as a fact or not for everyone in medical community (related with scoliosis). Is simple: the spine loose rotation or not when the ligament was cutted. My medical ignorance may be really great, but it must to be a Yes or No for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    What is your native language? I think you speak English pretty good. I'm sure you speak English better than I speak your language. 8-)
    thanks, but in this case, your Spanish (my native language) would not be so good.. English is ever difficult for me..

  12. #27
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    [QUOTE=Pooka1;130250]
    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    but why someone should to believe in a discipline unable to respond about the validity of that simple experiment?

    Kiester didn't show anything. How can the medial community respond to nothing?
    Medical community may not say anything about the outcome of that experiment???
    If they are sure that it’s wrong and they would have enough knowledge, they MUST to say and demonstrated through that knoledge that is impossible that the spine loose rotation because the absence of that ligament.. or possible but wrong the conclusion. If they have not enough knowledge, at least they should to show some curiosity and try to know if it is true or not the experiment and not only wait to hear what this Dr. will show. What would happen (I hope not) if he die before that? That community will forget this? We are talking about a simple experiment that may change all previous beliefs.. so few serious.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post

    Medical community may not say anything about the outcome of that experiment???
    If they are sure that it’s wrong and they would have enough knowledge, they MUST to say and demonstrated through that knoledge that is impossible that the spine loose rotation because the absence of that ligament.. or possible but wrong the conclusion. If they have not enough knowledge, at least they should to show some curiosity and try to know if it is true or not the experiment and not only wait to hear what this Dr. will show. What would happen (I hope not) if he die before that? That community will forget this? We are talking about a simple experiment that may change all previous beliefs.. so few serious.
    Okay I think you are talking about that abstract about the cadaver study, si?

    It probably has no relationship whatsoever to scoliosis in live people. What journal is it in? If it is a non-top shelf journal then the result probably isn't important to anything.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 12-04-2011 at 09:04 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    but it must to be a Yes or No for me.
    Okay here is what Kiester says about that if it means anything to anyone at this point...

    Dr. Kiester) The study you've pointed out says that better corrections may be easier if the ligaments around the ribs are released first. While this is interesting, the ligaments they are releasing won't make much difference for scoliosis surgery as it is currently done.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #30
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    My problem seems to be that Iím seeing medicine as a real science.. in a real science could never happen something like that!
    If a physicist says that all theories around Unified Theory are wrong because a simple experiment showed an important fact and now he is selling a machine to travel through the time, all his collegues will want to know about that experiment and will destroy her theory if would not be true what he says.
    But Physics is a science..

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