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Thread: Treatment: PT using MedX per Mooney & later, McIntire research

  1. #196
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    My daughter is 22 and has not been checked for her scoliosis progression since she was 12 years old and pre-menarche. So that's why I'm so disgusted by that ortho doc. It wasn't even his field.

    As for me, I'm making diet modifications and starting an exercise program through the cardiac center at my hospital to start since I have a tachyarrythmia. I'm trying deep tissue massage, but if you read in my thread under that topic, it's more of a torture session, so I don't know if I can handle it. I'm also getting Botox injections for muscle dystonia soon. So I'll find out what kind of exercising I will be doing besides the treadmill I have at home. They want me to built muscle. I don't know if the hospital gym has a TRS machine or not. I'll find out in the morning! :-) Thanks for asking!
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  2. #197
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    Whoaaaaaaaaaa....how could I miss 20 posts! My email notification deal ain't working...reading them all now. :-)
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    ...we're able to now describe HOW whey protein, i.e. leucine, does this.
    I've speed read info about Whey, but the mind gets saturated. Now noted, will be explored and added to the diet. (I think my wife incorporated it into our older daughter's 'diet for athletes'.
    Thanks for the reminder.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    ...the Roman Chair was excellent at reducing pain, although I don't know what effect it has on the hypokyphosis that invariably comes along with T-curves.
    Good reminder, Rohrer. Tamzin is slightly hypokyphotic; her Schroth breathing is designed to counter this. She uses Schroth RAB while doing Roman Chair, very specific adaptation of Schroth RAB, arm positioning, etc. I find it all too easy to miss one detail that can enhance each exercise; countering the hyop-K during RC exercise now noted. Thanks.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I, as an adult, am still looking for things to help stop progression and am starting "new conservative therapies" myself, as that is all that is left in MY toolbox.
    I've just spent a week solidly working with Tamzin, 3sisters and her daughter, all with scoliosis (double curves, rotation, rib issues, etc.). I was absolutely amazed at the residual flexibility in 3sisters spine and ribs; having seen breathing techniques (Schroth) and Schroth exercises massively correct both 3sisters curves, with the emphasis on firstly correcting her hyper-kyphosis, I'm even more enthusiastic than before. 3sisters focus and strength suggest to us both that with appropriate training, her mind can use her trained body to subconsciously hold corrected spine and ribs all day, every day. 3sisters is another Martha Hawes...i.e., a very strong, focused, determined mother and woman.

    Don't accept "can't"
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    ...recommend post-workout water followed by protein. Exercise+carbohydrate+protein=super metabolic activity.
    Great reiteration of the same point you made to me about a month ago, Kevin. We've been pretty rigorous on this; Tamzin's weight is still climbing slowly and now-resembling a grasshopper on triple-steroids!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    LINKS...
    Dingo, you are so organized it embarrasses me! Thanks a lot, all here in a neat wee post. Is this power you Americans possess something to do with diet, or the environment, or are y'all just a superior species! AMon is the same, puts me to shame.
    Cheers
    Tom
    Last edited by TAMZTOM; 04-18-2012 at 09:33 AM.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Here is a link to what I believe was the write-up (or part of the write-up) by the physical therapist.
    Revisiting exercise and scoliosis management
    By Amanda N. Geiger, DPT
    Hadn't read that, Dingo. Thanks. I thought the below snippet would be useful to jiggle the brain-cells of the anti-exercise brigade.
    "While we await the results of larger studies currently under way that address exercise-based management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis, it is intriguing to contemplate that the muscle imbalances associated with scoliosis may be more causative than consequential."
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    Hadn't read that, Dingo. Thanks. I thought the below snippet would be useful to jiggle the brain-cells of the anti-exercise brigade.
    "While we await the results of larger studies currently under way that address exercise-based management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis, it is intriguing to contemplate that the muscle imbalances associated with scoliosis may be more causative than consequential."
    I used to believe that muscle imbalances played a significant role in Scoliosis.... but over the last year I became more skeptical. My mind is still open to the possibility that muscles play a role but I suspect that the reason therapies like MedX and Scroth work are for some deeper reason that scientists don't yet understand.

    But the fact that those therapies help is good enough for me!

    Dingo, you are so organized it embarrasses me!
    Thanks but my wife calls it "obsessive." 8-)
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-18-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    I used to believe that muscle imbalances played a significant role in Scoliosis.... but over the last year I became more skeptical. My mind is still open to the possibility that muscles play a role but I suspect that the reason therapies like MedX and Scroth work are for some deeper reason that scientists don't yet understand.

    But the fact that they help is good enough for me!
    I get your drift, Dingo. I think that muscles play an important part in the pathogenesis of scoliosis, it's progression. I'm totally open to the idea that it's a multi-faceted condition, each of many pathomechanisms playing their insidious games with out kids' bodies. TR may indeed stabilise because of some as yet undiscovered effect on particular ligaments; that's great! I need to observe what doing TR does to my kid's spine; what it does to the spine (e.g., ligament stretch), MUST be backed up with the muscular strength and endurance to hold that corrected ligament in the new position. Proprioception plays a part, the neural pathways you've research; create or restore those to the muscles and we could get long-lasting, permanent correction on our kids. "Could." No guarantees in anything worth pursuing. We like the pursuit.

    I liked Kevin's reminder that too much of something good can be bad. Whey, melationin, exercise, etc....each must be optimal, not excessive. But to be up with the best athletes, the best musicians, the best ballet dancers, swimmers or gymnasts, our kids must put in commensurate effort to be up with the best SCOLIOSIS-BEATERS. To represent their country at swimming, kids must work hard to succeed; the same thing applies to scoliosis. The swimming kids couldn't do it if they weren't having fun. KIDS HAVE FUN TRAINING TO BE THE BEST THEY CAN BE.

    PS: Tamzin hits her scoliosis training with vigour because she views it as training her for athletics and dance. It's not some 'additional activity' she has to do.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Thanks but my wife calls it "obsessive." 8-)
    Hey, I think your wife must be a distant relative of mine!
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    Hey, I think your wife must be a distant relative of mine!
    Funny you say that because she's part Scottish. 8-)

  12. #207
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    This is why I'm wavering on muscle asymmetry and Scoliosis.

    Exhibit A) Treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis with quantified trunk rotational strength training: a pilot study.
    We found no rotational strength asymmetry at baseline
    Dr. McIntire couldn't detect asymmetry in this sample of children. At the time I thought it was only a few kids and maybe I didn't fully understand what or how they were testing. My worldview was still intact but it made me wonder.


    Exhibit B) Electromyographic analysis of paravertebral muscles in patients with idiopathic scoliosis.
    Erector spinae muscles on the convex and concave sides at the curvature apex in patients with idiopathic scoliosis and small magnitude of curves did not show signifi cant differences in electromyographic amplitude.
    Uh oh.... I think I just hit an iceberg. I was surprised by this one. My mind became open to the fact that I might have been wrong.


    Exhibit C) Axial rotation strength in seated neutral and prerotated postures of young adults.
    In isometric activities, participants were 20-25% weaker in prerotated postures when twisting in the direction of prerotation and were approximately 30% stronger in the opposite direction.
    My eyes! They burn!!! Ok so it turns out that even healthy children have strength asymmetry. That makes sense because I'm right handed and the right side of my body is a little stronger than the left. Children with Scoliosis may have strength asymmetry but probably everyone else does too! (facepalm)


    None of that changes my basic faith in the MedX or exercise in general. I'm going with science and every time the MedX has been tested on mild to medium Scoliosis the curve has either held steady or regressed. That's a powerful testament. Amom's good results were what I expected. But what it's doing.... I dunno.

    Dr. Kiester thinks the problem is deformed ligaments.

    Other evidence points at a nervous system disorder called dystonia. My son's doctor told me on his first visit that scientists already knew that Scoliosis was triggered by a nervous system disorder, they just weren't sure how it worked.

    It's easy to see how Dystonia could deform the ligaments around the spine. And interestingly enough Dystonia can be treated with isolation exercises.

    Effective behavioral treatment of focal hand dystonia in musicians alters somatosensory cortical organization

    In our own laboratory, treating patients with musician's cramp, we have used splints to immobilize digits other than the dystonic fingers, while the dystonic finger performed systematic training with the respective musical instrument.
    After treatment we observed a significant decrease of the 3D Euclidean distances between the cortical representations of all of the fingers of the affected hand, which also resulted in a more orderly representation of the arrangement of those distances including the fingers D1, D2, and D5. As expected, there was little change of the distance dimensions in the cortical hemisphere representing the nondystonic hand. These results are consistent with a variety of studies that suggest that cortical organization may be modified through extensive use.
    The MedX isolates the paraspinal muscles in the same way that splints were used to isolate the dystonic finger. That's an interesting parallel.

    My hunch is that the MedX helps because it works on the nervous system and this in turn helps the spine recover.

    But until scientists prove one of their hypothesis my mind will remain open.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-18-2012 at 11:45 AM.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Uh oh.... I think I just hit an iceberg.
    I've got a ton of bruises on my forehead too!
    The general population may or may not have strength asymmetry--I'd hazard that there is often some. I KNOW that Tamzin has/had significant strength asymmetry caused by scoliosis, ingrained posture and reflex action strengthening some muscles, not using others. We exercise to achieve symmetry. My own tuppence worth, at this stage down to road is that asymmetric torso rotation HAS ALREADY helped Tamzin regain ROM and some associated strength. I cannot justify or risk doing it symmetrically as I've SEEN TR performed INTO THE EXISTING thoracic rotation and it "fed the curves". This may not be the case with mild to medium scoliosis, I don't know. I also know that Tamzin has asymmetrical musculature on her lumbar and thorax; even doing asymm. TR overworks the already overworked left side lumbar muscles. I know that she can focus hard and diminish the workload done by the left lumbar, increase the work done on the right. Incidentally, I don't think it's a bad thing that the left lumbar works--I think it's impossible NOT TO WORK other side muscle groups (cf., much earlier post by Kevin on this point). I've also seen 3sisters' daughter do TR: her curves and rotation are similar to Tamzin's, but her lumbar musculature is wickedly symmetrical--I am convinced that asymmetrical torso rotation can help correct this kid.

    None of that changes my basic faith in the MedX or exercise in general. ... Amom's good results were what I expected.
    Agree 100%, powerful powerful testament.


    My hunch is that the MedX helps because it works on the nervous system and this in turn helps the spine recover.
    Almost all focused exercise works the nervous system, positively. The Medx isolation facility can work exceptionally well.

    But until scientists prove one of their hypothesis my mind will remain open.
    Mine too! I need infoooooooooooooo......
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    ...and as someone who is passionate about condensing, explaining and bringing science to a 'non-science' audience...
    And the reams I've learned from you have directly helped my kid already. So keep at what you do well.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post

    It's easy to see how Dystonia could deform the ligaments around the spine. And interestingly enough Dystonia can be treated with isolation exercises.

    Effective behavioral treatment of focal hand dystonia in musicians alters somatosensory cortical organization


    The MedX isolates the paraspinal muscles in the same way that splints were used to isolate the dystonic finger. That's an interesting parallel.

    My hunch is that the MedX helps because it works on the nervous system and this in turn helps the spine recover.

    But until scientists prove one of their hypothesis my mind will remain open.
    This is a nice find and comparison.

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