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Thread: Flexural-torsional buckling

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    It's a lot easier to look at heredity than the actual disease.

    Someday scientists will develop the tools that allow them to accurately examine disease processes.
    Dingo, are you sure about that?..medical community could have gestated since much time ago the Multidisciplinary Project needed for that but.. what they are doing seems to be least complicated and more fascinating for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post

    When that happens the study of heredity and disease will largely disappear.
    And in the meantime, how many people without receiving any kind of help..

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    Now the only reason I’m posting this is because the autor states “The parameter of 'flexibility anisotropy' as a factor for initiation of IS has never been suggested or tested before.”
    Now that is not exactly true.
    I myself proposed a biomechanical understanding of scoliosis based on individual curve patterns lets say about 8yrs ago but no scoliosis researcher bothered to take the time to really listen and look into my ideas.
    The fact that I suggested creating 3d mathatical models of individual scoliotic curve patterns (with 6 degrees of freedom at each verterbral level - hundreds of degrees of freedom in total and including elastic and fluid elements) that combines coupling and accounts for the vicous circle of scoliosis progression (and that I will get my data from a mathematical point of view and calculate progression from within the curve pattern model as I go meaning I don't need to test patients in a scoliosis biomechanical laboratory to get the data I need) should have been enough to get their attention. Yes, the scoliosis researchers that be are more interested in genetics, they didn’t care that I don’t have the modelling skills to create the most complicated spine models ever to prove my case.
    And so my ideas sit dormant waiting for the right time to be brought up again, (- or for me to do something about it, and right now I choose not to).

    So, I have suggested something similar before, this guy isn't the first and he won't be the last and I can tell you, we’ll all likely be dead before he proves anything. I wish it wasn't so, but that's the way it is
    (...and I should know because I'm the only person on the planet who actually claims to know something about how scoliosis works and my ideas are based on sound principles too.)
    And for anybody who wants to start asking questions and picking at me for my ideas, please note - I won't be dragged into meaningless conversations that go around in circles and go nowhere and achieve nothing.
    I've got more important things to do atm, and also I may not post again for some time.
    Based on your statements, I'm not sure if you'll read this at all, but wanted to point out that researchers have been creating 3d models of the scoliotic spine for at least 10 years now.

    From a review in 2009 about the contributions of the IRSSD to scoliosis research:http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/28
    Finite Element Modeling of Scoliosis

    Scoliosis is a complex 3D deformity of the spine whose biomechanics is difficult to comprehend using only radiographs or external measurements. However, it is obvious that its pathomechanism has an important biomechanical component. Biomechanical factors may arise from different sources such as dysfunction in the control of muscles eliciting balance problems and asymmetric loads on the skeleton, mechanobiological dysfunctions, growth alterations, etc. These biomechanical elements cause progressive deformation of the intervertebral disks, vertebrae, ribs, and pelvis. Conservative treatment such as bracing and minimally-invasive fusionless techniques aim at applying forces on the patient's skeleton in order to influence the deformation process and restore the spine alignment.

    Finite element (FE) analysis for the study of scoliosis biomechanics has greatly evolved over the years due to the exponential progress of computer capabilities and modeling tools, and the increase of knowledge in complementary disciplines, in part due to collaboration between members of the IRSSD. Biomechanical/computer models are of practical interest because they provide the possibility of simulating an unlimited number of variables to investigate scoliosis biomechanics (pathomechanisms, spine growth, spine mechanisms and stability, coupling interaction between the spine, rib cage, pelvis, etc.), to predict the resulting shape of the spine in response to the application of a treatment as well as to optimize the treatment.

    Early FE models of the osseo-ligamentous trunk system were very simple (e.g. Andriacchi and Schultz in the 1970's) and were used as a first attempt to analyze scoliosis and treatment biomechanics on generic scoliotic shapes. Over the years, the models have been refined to include patient-specific geometry using 3D reconstruction from bi-planar radiographs (I. Stokes, C.E. Aubin, W. Skalli) and patient-specific mechanical properties and boundary conditions using flexible tests and optimization processes (Y. Petit, V. Lafage, JP Little). The FE models were refined further to include the muscles (I. Stokes) and motor control (M. Beauséjour, V. Pomero), growth deformation processes which included the Hueter Volkman principles (I. Stokes, I. Villemure), and lower limbs (C Driscoll). The models also evolved into more detailed representations to include a better definition of the anatomical constituents like the bones and articulations (M. El-Rich, A. Sevrain), growth plates (P.L. Sylvestre), soft tissues (JP Little), bone property distribution (A Garo), etc.

    FE models were refined and exploited to analyze many different scoliosis applications. For instance, FE models were used to test scoliosis pathomechanism hypotheses: asymmetric growth of the rib cage (I. Stokes), neuro-central joint asymmetrical growth (A.M. Huynh), abnormal anterior spine growth profiles (S. Lin), muscle impairment (A.M. Huynh), and concave-convex biases in the progression of scoliosis (M. Driscoll). FE modeling also was used to investigate the coupled mechanisms between the scoliotic spine and the rib cage subjected to loads corresponding to a brace (C.E. Aubin), as well as to study brace biomechanics (D. Périé, C.E. Aubin), and optimize brace effectiveness and optimal orthotic loads (G.T. Wynarski, D. Gignac, C.E. Aubin). More recently, a brace simulator using a parametric FE model has allowed virtual testing of many design options and optimizing their effectiveness (J. Clin). Biomechanical models also were used to simulate surgical instrumentation. Early models allowed reproduction of main individual (and simplified) maneuvers of the scoliosis surgery (I. Stokes, F. Poulin, V. Lafage) and simulation of costoplasties (J. Carrier, L. Grealou), while more recent models have allowed more detailed simulations of instrumentation strategies (Y. Lafon, R. Dumas, C.E. Aubin, X. Wang), simulation of patient positioning (K. Duke, C. Driscoll), and analysis of surgical instrumentation strategies (M. Robitaille), and optimization (Y. Majdouline). A spine surgery simulator integrating a computer model in a surgeon-friendly interface or a virtual environment now allows the surgeon to test different instrumentation strategies him/herself (C.E. Aubin, M. Côté).

    FE models can yield valuable insights into the associated biomechanics of scoliosis and in the development of better treatment strategies even though particular attention should be paid when exploiting and interpreting simulation results, in order that they are not used beyond their scope of validity and application limitations. In the next few years, progress in understanding scoliosis from a biomechanical point of view is likely to be made by combining this sophisticated approach with other knowledge provided by complementary fields of research. It is anticipated that the IRSSD will continue to play a major role in facilitating this progress.
    These researchers include all the components you've mentioned. So I'm not sure why you feel you're the only one with the idea to use computers and mathematics to study scoliosis.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    These researchers include all the components you've mentioned. So I'm not sure why you feel you're the only one with the idea to use computers and mathematics to study scoliosis.
    The same reason why anyone thinks they are first to think of something... unfamiliarity with the literature, not being in the field, not attending scientific meetings, etc., etc. etc.

    Some folks even think the less familiar they are with field the more poised they are to contribute. They are essentially unencumbered by the (relevant) facts. Combine this with barely a middle school level science education and any pathology can look as easy a pie.

    This, in a nutshell, is why we have folk science.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #34
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    Kevin_Mc, great post! (as always); I’m also reading now your reply about an article talking about forces and specific muscles opposing to them. but I’ll comment to you in that thread.
    Thanks!

  5. #35
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    FE models can yield valuable insights into the associated biomechanics of scoliosis and in the development of better treatment strategies even though particular attention should be paid when exploiting and interpreting simulation results, in order that they are not used beyond their scope of validity and application limitations. In the next few years, progress in understanding scoliosis from a biomechanical point of view is likely to be made by combining this sophisticated approach with other knowledge provided by complementary fields of research. It is anticipated that the IRSSD will continue to play a major role in facilitating this progress.

    It seems to not be written for someone believing that scoliosis may be circumscribed to only one science or knowledge area and that only trying to finding the first/s cause/s has sense. I really hope that applications using that knowledge would NOT ONLY be used to improve fusion techniques and those great efforts would be articulated soon, in a Multidisciplinary Project with the real purpose to find a satisfactory solution.. in the true sense of the term.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post

    how did you do the degree symbol - maybe one of those ALT1234 tricky shortcuts)
    the degree symbol is alt+0176... °

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post

    QUOTE>>These researchers include all the components you've mentioned. So I'm not sure why you feel you're the only one with the idea to use computers and mathematics to study scoliosis.<<

    The difference is they don't know what to do and can't get the data they need to do it.
    When they speak of mathematics, they are talking about analysing data.
    When I speak of mathematics - I'm talking about geometry.
    For instance - the true anterior /posterior loading vectors, which they have not yet discovered, because they don't understand biomechanics in the scoliotic spine well enough.
    They're talking about geometry as well, not just data analysis. The FE models are done in order to calculate these forces. They use cadaver spines to try and validate their models. The guys in Canada (Aubin et al) as well as Stokes measure these forces in the context of the scoliotic spine. In fact, they have a way to digitize, or take a digital x-ray, turn that in to a computer model and generate various forces on the spine. This is primarily being done in the context of surgery or bracing, but the methods and models are set-up and are being improved all the time. But, everything they're doing is about geometry, among many other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    I can use this knowledge to get and calculate progression from within the curve pattern as I go, and also I already understand a biomechanical starting point.
    They dont have any of this - and basically they have nothing without it.
    I said it yrs ago - these answers wont be solved until they get off their asses and investigate what I did so long ago.
    They have their genetics, and I have the other half of the puzzle.
    I'm skeptical that you understand the research well enough to say this. I've read a bit of their work and have talked with several of these guys back in grad school. We were even trying to figure out how to collaborate with some of them. Put our strength training and EMG data into their models, but it just never materialized. I can assure you that they know a lot more about the forces in, on and around the scoliotic spine, than you are giving them credit for.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    (- Like I mentioned in my first post - don't start nitpicking at me - I've got good reasons for saying everything I say.
    Do you really think I'd be foolish enough to say the things I've said on this forum - if I didn't have reasons for them or couldn't back up my statements?
    I don't know you well enough to say what you might be willing to say on here.


    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post

    They say I have I have to get in their court - that its up to me to prove otherwise - we'll I'm sorry everyone but I just don't have the skills or expertise to use the modelling software to create these models.
    But "their court" is the only way it can be shown to them. It's unclear what you expect the researchers to do. You say you know the biomechanics of the scoliotic spine (and they don't) and you know how to calculate the progression of a curve (and they don't despite the fact that they've published extensively on these very concepts). But you can't describe it in terms of the researchers or use their tools to show this. So I'm also unclear why you assert that you understand these concepts while the best and brightest minds, with a deep understanding and background - combined with the most technologically advanced equipment, don't. Are we just supposed to take your word for it?

    Sorry. I'm not trying to attack, or 'nitpick' you. But you're making many bold statements about what you understand and what the researchers understand (or don't understand), while providing no evidence or credentials. Except to say that you've 'been there done that' and don't want to bang your head against a wall anymore.

    Honestly, some of the things and ideas you wrote were pretty interesting. It's clear you've thought about it quite a bit.

    BTW, the scoliosis books website looked nice.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    All I really ever wanted to do was share what I could see was going on in my spine – my scoliosis but no researchers or anyone ever truly gave me the right opportunity to show the whole scope of what I knew.
    Hey. I understand your fascination with your ideas about scoliosis.

    Have you considered that these researchers might have lay folks like yourself trying to approach them often? These other lay folks have ideas that are mutually exclusive to those of the researchers and other lay people. But the only people with any relevant training are the researchers.

    Please consider the researchers aren't getting paid enough and don't have enough hours in the day to edify the general public.

    Also please consider that scoliosis is not only more complex than you imagine but more complex than you can imagine.

    Good luck.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 09-17-2011 at 06:48 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #38
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    Kurt Kobain had Scoliosis?

    sjmcphee, I just visited your website and saw the picture of Kurt Cobain. I didn't know he had Scoliosis. I find that interesting because he had a lot of health problems including Narcolepsy, Depression and chronic stomach pain. When I see so much sickness in one person it makes me wonder if it's all connected. Maybe one system in his brain or nervous system failed and it lead to all of his different illnesses.

    BTW: recent evidence has tied Narcolepsy to exposure to the swine flu.

    p.s. I see that you are located in Brisbane Australia. You lucky duck! In pictures that's the most beautiful place on earth. I like your meter maids. 8-)

  9. #39
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    Scott, nice place.. I also think beach is the best.
    I think you may help not only with your good pages. I also think you have good ideas and for instance would be really great for me to know more about your work. Scoliosis is a really big problem for some of us who also feel that we must to understand all that would be possible, not for solve it, but for taking the most reasonable decisions in our particular cases.. something that may be hard and uncertain of course.

    Also some of us believe that a real change is needed and possible to be gestated in the scoliosis treatment. We are not looking for a perfect and surely impossible solution as would be in an adult reverse to 0º .. what we are looking for was extended treated here
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...-to-Scoliscore and we need ideas to do something in that way.

    And every kind of help is good.. the only one true about scoliosis seems to be that nobody may say that really know about it and of course all of us are concious that all ideas may be wrong.. but anyway may be improved or may trigger other ideas.. and who knows if some of them might be useful in some way for some extraordinary researchers as Dr. McIntire (kevin_Mc) is.

    And just only to hear what others said and give your opinion as you was doing is a help for someone as me, that need to talk about scoliosis everything that would be possible.. so I really hope you’ll remains here.

  10. #40
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    Cobain

    sjmcphee

    I had minor scoliosis in junior high, and since I've been playing guitar ever since, the weight of the guitar has made my back grow in this curvature. So when I stand, everything is sideways. It's weird.
    It's interesting that Kurt Cobain felt that his Scoliosis was from holding a guitar. One of the posters on a different Scoliosis board was told that he wasn't standing straight enough and this caused his back to grow crooked. These opinions sound like they came out of the dark ages and yet they were floating around just a decade or two ago. They're probably still common today.

    I didn't realize the Gold Coast was a drive from Brisbane. I thought it was all one big city. But in the picture of Currumbin I can see what you mean. I can see (what I think) is the Brisbane CBD in the background. What a beautiful area!

    I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona which can hit almost 50 degrees Celsius on a blistering, summer day. I'm 500 miles from a beach in a desert that looks like where the Road Warrior was filmed. Being an hour away from the Gold Coast sounds like heaven. 8-) Can families live on the Gold Coast or is it just retired people and vacationers? Are there schools and things like that?

    If so I may talk to an immigration attorney sometime soon. 8-)

  11. #41
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    Science versus folk science

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post
    Really though, I should do a "Lets use our brains for just one damn second here..." and ask does he really totally believe they are going to get the data they need about scoliosis biomechanics from cadaiver spines?
    Scott,

    Dr. McIntire never said that nor can it reasonably be inferred from what he wrote.

    Please consider that you do not have the training to read and understand what researchers write.

    Can I just ask you why folks go through years of undergrad, grad, post docs and do years of research to try to understand scoliosis? I mean you have none of that and think you have an understanding of scoliosis that exceeds that of the researchers. Why do they need training and you don't? Are they dumber than you?

    I understand your need to come up with an explanation for your condition. We have other folks here who come up with other equally unscientific reasons for scoliosis. You focus on biomechanics. Others focus on biochemistry and infectious disease. Nobody has any relevant training. There is no limit on the imagination when there is no training. That's fine.

    I just want you to consider that what you are doing is folk science and that helps you. The reason the researchers weren't interested is because they do science to help everyone.

    Folks science is easy and everyone can do it as we have seen. Science is hard and only researchers (or others) who are trained can do it.

    Good luck.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  12. #42
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    Scott, I just only want to make a clarification: I can assure that Dr. McIntire is really a very good researcher and even most important, he is a really good man trying to help people suffering this strange affection. He investigates about muscular effects and a good approach to some solution with the Torso Rotation Machine that helped some kids. If I said he is really extraordinary is mainly because I think he is not only making researches about the first/s cause/s that may lead to avoid scoliosis the next week or millennium, but trying to use the knowledge to find a satisfactory solution that at least some us may see some day and I appreciate him very much because his patient to hear me about my ideas and answering my doubts. We really need much Drs. McIntire.
    Maybe you challenged him first in some sense when you talked about researcher’s knowledge. But it has not any sense a ‘fight’ with a really good man as he is; I think is only a misunderstanding about the terms that were used . He is not trying to silent people thinking in a different way as regrettably occurs with other people here. So.. please is not with him that a ‘fight’ has sense and regrettably sometimes has sense.. and not leave this forum as so many people did. Is good to have you here.

  13. #43
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    Scott, I said you I’m interested in see your work. I’m interested in all that may increase my understanding about the scoliosis problem and I think it takes sense what you say.
    I have not so much idea if something similar is already knows for researchers or not, but it would not care for me. Of course I perfectly understand if you don’t want to show it to someone not being a researcher.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcphee View Post

    Because I really don't want to go over the research if there's no point to it. I really don't want to go over the research if there is a point to it.

    Message received.

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    All of the above is fine. I'm in support of your hypothesis and working on your own to try and figure out what happened in your case. You are also able to describe what you're saying reasonably well. My overall point is that you shouldn't say that biomechanics researchers don't know what they're doing, e.g. "feeble attempts", at trying to figure out what you say you've already figured out in your head. In short, if you don't want to be treated like an idiot or a liar (which I don't see that anyone has treated you like that), then don't treat the guys who are actually doing the models you are sort of suggesting like they're idiots or will only argue tooth and nail just to soothe their own egos.

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