Have any adults tried Schroth Therapy?

[Pooka1]

However, the thoracic "lines" mean nothing if you are trying to measure a curve. You have lines that are clearly not the endpoints of the curve and actually encompass the S-shape feature within a supposed curve. It really appears that your thoracic curve has increased.

Because the top yellow line is clearly not drawn at the most tilted vertebra, I assumed it was to track the clavicle tilt although maybe not. The bottom line does not appear to be drawn at the most tilted vertebrae either in at least some of the radiographs. And it's an interesting question if the nice correction in the non-structural lumbar affects the curve in the structural thoracic in terms of selecting end vertebra and if it changed. There was some question of end vertebra changing in Hawes' case for example.

I would like to hear what a surgeon measures for those three radiographs. I played around with it, drew the lines and damned if I could then find a protractor! I have to wait until my two young associates return from school so they can clue me in as to where the protractor is hiding. The 2003 curve has progressed from the 1996 one but only by maybe 5* just eyeballing it. The 2011 curve has progressed from the 2003 curve at the top but the straightening of the lumbar complicates things it seems. That curve may be similar in magnitude to the 2003 curve only because of the lumbar straightening. All those T curves are in the low-mid 40* range in my unlettered, mealy-mouthed, lay opinion. :-)

But it is fascinating to think that straightening the non-structural lumbar may slow or even halt progression of a structural T curve. Maybe the approach of working on the non-structural curve is more effective that addressing the structural one.

[Pooka1]

Hi Sharon
Flying out the door to Tamzin's ballet class--an hour drive--and just finished Scarlett training run. No time.
I know zilch about Marfans, so can't comment. I wonder, though, if the muscular issues and bracing failure tell us more about AIS, viz., bracing alone has limited success, must work the muscles too.

That's a rational explanation. I would not be shocked if bracing + PT in a way that hasn't been studied yet was shown to work during the growth spurt because most studies to date are a la carte - one or the other but not both. That's one reason why you and Tamzin are in uncharted territory which is huge PLUS in this game where there is some negative evidence in straight AIS. That and because it is not straight AIS but C/SM. Even I, the arch skeptic of bracing, might be persuaded to try bracing and PT for C/SM because I think there is enough known about how C/SM differs from straight AIS. They exclude those cases for studies for a reason. You essentially do have to create your own study and literature for that.

I really do wish many more potential and past Schroth patient lurkers on this forum would chip in re. their Schroth experiences. I really hope Rohrer will go for it; I know 3sisters will give it 100% and her daughter will excel. It'd be a great live study RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD TO follow a few kids and adults through the next few years. What great research potential. Forget past studies. What an opportunity for a researcher!!! (Hint, hint.)

I wish more people would report results period. That's what people want to know. We had that one thread on Clear chiro which I think will inform other parents about whether they want to try it.

[TAMZTOM]

But it is fascinating to think that straightening the non-structural lumbar may slow or even halt progression of a structural T curve. Maybe the approach of working on the non-structural curve is more effective that addressing the structural one.

A point definitely worth emphasising Sharon, nice one. I rapped on in another thread about Tamzin's "vertebral stack" above the lumbar apex becoming more perpendicular, due to a correction LC; bend a straw (a TC) and hold it more and less perpendicular; more provides the TC with greater support, i.e., raises the progression threshold. IMO.

[Ballet Mom]

Firstly; let me start by saying that I am optimistic, an adult, and going to the Katharina Schroth Klinik in Bad Sobernheim, Germany, for four weeks. If anyone has any experience to share, I would appreciate it.
If anyone disagrees with my approach, PLEASE don't post it here after my comment because I am going and I don't want to carry or hear negativity. I appreciate your right to disagree, but I don't want a send-off with negative feelings or pessimism for us, please! I want this to be as positive experience as possible for me and my daughter. So many opinions and hopes. This is ours! I've made it up to 49 degrees or so with a good quality of life but would really like to stop progressing, and give my daughter a better opportunity than I had.
After a creepingly progressive scoliosis curve, and a new, big "S" curve in my 12 yr old daughter, we are off to learn and improve together. She will get her Cheneau brace in about two weeks. We start our in-patient klinik experience on February 8th. Luckily, we live in Germany so the transportation is not an issue (we live about an hour and a half away.) I plan on sharing our new information with all who are interested.
By the way, for those interested in ballet, my daughter is a dancer with six years experience and hard-earned wonderful flexibility and spine suppleness. I anticipate this will help make her a better patient than I!
We are only going to the clinic for four weeks (the minimum recommended time!) but I am starting my daughter with four personal physical therapy sessions (one each of the preceding weeks before our session) with a Katharina Schroth trained therapist to get us a start on familiarizing ourselves with our new plan. Stay tuned for reports on our visit. Anyone else going or has been there?

Good luck to you and your daughter. I agree that the flexibility of the spine that is developed in serious ballet study is a great advantage in bracing and the continuing development of strength in the back is great for any spine. All my daughter's orthopedists agreed that ballet would be good for her.

[Ballet Mom]

Those are good points but you have to realize that Schroth has been around for over 90 years. I am told it is still a fringe treatment even in Germany. Weiss, K. Schroth's grandson openly opined in 2009 about whether PT like Schroth works. After all those years and with him at the helm for about 10 of those years with some 30,000 patients in just that time. He is not a surgeon despite what resumes you might see online but is a trained researcher and can write up research results competently. Him not being a surgeon explains his interest in conservative therapies and why he also does bracing in addition to PT. Weiss is no longer at the Schroth clinic by the way.

And surgery goes on as ever in Germany, almost as if Schroth didn't exist.

How have you decided that Dr. Weiss, MD is not a surgeon? He states it regularly on his website and his published research. Are you suggesting that he is fraudulently identifying himself as such? That is a very serious accusation.

Please let us know your inside source for information. I would be very interested in knowing if he is not what he claims to be.

[LindaRacine]

I don't think so. I think we want to lift up each other and find support and share information. Someone will want to know what I experience, just like I want to know what others are going through and where I might find myself one day. Or decisions we each might have to make one day for ourselves or a loved one.

Besides, even someone who chooses a different path (or doesn't have another options for their situation) can grow a lot by knowing what else is going on, and maybe learn something that might help in the future. I knew NOTHING 25 years ago. (my doctor didn't either

We all want to know what you experience.

I think you're making an argument to hear the bad as well as the good, though you say you don't want to hear anything negative.

[TAMZTOM]

...most studies to date are a la carte - one or the other but not both.

3sisters clocked onto that with rapidity; I believe she's using a Cheneau plus exercise.
I think Weiss is big on promoting both (fingers in both pies, although that doesn't detract from the concept). I've also seen evidence of attempts to research different types of exercise in-brace, e.g., increasing force in-brace with directed breathing, rotation, etc. Also the Europeans--UK not included--promote SpineCor's own PT program in addition to wearing the brace. Mr Mills (UK Schroth) watched Tamzin 'do some moves' last week and agreed that it'd all help. He specifically said Schroth was helpful and complimented the brace. Anecdotal, but food for thought.

That's one reason why you and Tamzin are in uncharted territory which is huge PLUS in this game where there is some negative evidence in straight AIS. That and because it is not straight AIS but C/SM.

I'd certainly be worried just slapping a brace on Tamzin and hoping for the best. In fact, I'm worried with her in one and have redoubled our efforts on the exercise front for that reason. We're also tailoring things so that she works in-brace to compliment it (e.g., Pilates and ballet class tonight--just returned).
As I said elsewhere, two surgeons and some orthotists have 'opined' that having C/SM doesn't remove the scoliosis from the AIS classification. Their opinion is of little worth.

Even I, the arch skeptic of bracing, might be persuaded to try bracing and PT for C/SM because I think there is enough known about how C/SM differs from straight AIS. They exclude those cases for studies for a reason. You essentially do have to create your own study and literature for that.

Even if C/SM is causative for scoliosis, what works is likely to work also for some AIS. Even chuck in some genetic growth plate asymmetry unbridled theory--it can still work (transient genetic aetiology) by reversing the progressive cycle. I haven't come across anything that definitely differentiates scoliosis with concomitant C/SM for AIS; that why the two surgeons still classify Tamzin as AIS and, regardless of their opinion, why I treat Tamzin as if she has AIS. (PS: actually, as Rohrer has explained often, Tamzin was undoubtedly JIS, just diagnosed late.)

After our experiences with bracing, I could easily have challenged you for that "arch sceptic" title! I won't though--just have to ensure that the damn thing is doing what is says on the tin!

I wish more people would report results period. That's what people want to know.

Seconded!

[LindaRacine]

Despite requiring scientific precision for studies showing exercise therapy works, this poster drops their standard to "certainly possible" to dismiss exercise based correction. PS: a repeat surgery poster who 'in all likelihood' (:-))is quite sedentary.

Up to the time my curves progressed to being very painful, I was anything but sedentary.

If anyone is negative, I think it might be you.

No one is suggesting that exercise programs not be tried. We only want practitioners to be accountable. Would you see it my way if I were selling snake oil, and claiming that it worked because my daughter's curve didn't increase? Or, would you want to see a study showing what happened to the kids who didn't get snake oil?

[LindaRacine]

I would like to hear what a surgeon measures for those three radiographs. I

Since they're not full spine x-rays, most specialists would not even want to measure them.

[TAMZTOM]

Up the time my curves progressed to being very painful, I was anything but sedentary. If anyone is negative, I think it might be you.

I agree, apologies for the sedentary comment.

[Pooka1]

Even if C/SM is causative for scoliosis, what works is likely to work also for some AIS. Even chuck in some genetic growth plate asymmetry unbridled theory--it can still work (transient genetic aetiology) by reversing the progressive cycle. I haven't come across anything that definitely differentiates scoliosis with concomitant C/SM for AIS; that why the two surgeons still classify Tamzin as AIS ad, regardless of their opinion, treat Tamzin as if she has AIS.

Our surgeon also classifies Marfans scoliosis as still being AIS even though it is known to behave differently to bracing. When there is some evidence scoliosis type "A" behaves differently from type "B" to the point they exclude type "B" from studies of Type "A" then that is good ground to think they should not be lumped. Call me crazy. :-)

That's why I am trying to use the construct "straight AIS" even though surgeons do seem to include other types in the AIS category.

[Pooka1]

Since they're not full spine x-rays, most specialists would not even want to measure them.

Ah good point. I think that might clear up the struggle I was having with possibly changed end vertebrae. But I think TO has the full radiographs and just cuts them in half to show the L and T curves separately. Maybe he would post the full radiographs.

[TAMZTOM]

That's why I am trying to use the construct "straight AIS" even though surgeons do seem to include other types in the AIS category.

I believe that type of rigour can yield enlightening information. With a paucity of solid research though, we're marooned to extrapolate...or progress!

[TAMZTOM]

I agree that the flexibility of the spine that is developed in serious ballet study is a great advantage in bracing and the continuing development of strength in the back is great for any spine.

Hi Ballet Mom
It's that flexibility increase, not engendered by Schroth on its own, that has persuaded me to start Tamzin at ballet. She loved her first class this evening. She's going along tomorrow night--the teacher wants to put her in a GRADE 4 class, whatever that means? Two Royal ballet school juniors at the class tonight really fired Tamzin's competitive juices.

We did 30 minutes of Pilates beforehand. Instructor was very knowledgeable on scoliosis. Explained opening up the intervertebral disks posteriorly very well; if the anterior overgrowth (genetic or caused by asymmetric growth plate pressure) theories hold water, addressing that spine flexibility asymmetry is crucial. She also gave me a humbling lecture on physiology--I wanted to take notes!

[Pooka1]

She also gave me a humbling lecture on physiology--I wanted to take notes!

Yeah I wish I took more biology in college or at least have taken anatomy and physiology. Talk about those subjects on this forum numbs my mind. :-)