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  • #76
    Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
    ...something about female puberty biochemistry skews the ratio.
    Yep.

    Apart for the casting possibility, the non-invasive treatment would be the same, methinks. I've seen kids as young as 4 doing well with Schroth, despite its undeserved reputation of being difficult to comprehend. Scoliosis ain't an easy thing to fix, deserves the expending of a few brain cells.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by 3sisters View Post
      ...she had Erin lay down and positioned her arms up (left) or down (right, ) adjusted her hips, and worked on having Erin breathe audibly with her. Deep breaths in, longer exhalations, and Susanne kept her hand where she wanted Erin to try to breath into (left lung/ thoracic area.) I also need to get four beanbags of 200 grams each to help position/ place against Erin's body. We have begun.
      The Team takes to the field, crowd is roaring.....

      Left arm up stretches the concave, left side, tight musculature and opens up the left side contracted intercostal rib spacing. The directed breathing into left thoracic GREATLY assists this symmetrising/remodelling work. Left side INHALE, expire upwards. That's the right-angle in R.A.B.
      Nb: we noticed after the clinic that purely inhaling into the left side of the thoracic has a tendency to feed the lower same side lumbar curve. We modified, Tamzin breathing BACK LEFT thorax, then expiring to front upper right. (Might be worth mentioning the affect on the LC to the therapist. I'd be interested in her response.) Our modification also assists derotation. (Modifying the breathing pattern is encompassed within the Schroth program.)

      The four beanbags also assist with derotation when lying in a "passive correction", supine. Simple and effective.

      Being a northern, kilted savage with cro-magnon forehead, I found the glimpses at Fred the Skeleton very confusing. Took me reading the book to understand. Looking now for pictures from the book that dredged me from the dark.

      RibHump.gif
      scoliosis001.jpg
      scoliosis002.jpg
      07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
      11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
      05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
      12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
      05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

      Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

      Comment


      • #78
        Back from a month in Bad Sobernheim

        Well, my daughter and I survived four weeks as in-patients in the German Schroth Klinik. I know there are others contemplating going. So, I'll do my best to describe what I can in a posting or few. Mind you, I have nothing to compare it with as far as Stateside clinics, or CLEAR, etc. Here goes!

        Overall, good training. Caring, knowledgeable physiotherapists. For numbers people, here is what we found.
        Clinic docs recalculated all x-rays 'freshly' so there is some variance from what we thought we had.
        Me. 51T, 36 L
        Erin 28T, 12 L

        We did not have new xrays taken afterward because Erin is getting nailed with xrays as we attempt to get her Cheneau adjusted. Also, four weeks is only so long. I will get an OOB xray for her when needed. For me, curiousity will have me xrayed in a few months after I continue training at home (and away, like in Wales

        We did have rotations read, though. My lumbar rotation was consistent 5 to 5 (end of stay). My thoracic went from 10 degrees to 8/9. Erin's thoracic went from 11 to 10; her lumbar went from 4 to 1.

        There were close to 200 patients and accompanying 'begleit' persons (non patients.) Two group sessions each day, two 'functional' sessions where you train on your own with the constant assistance and support of everpresent physiotherapists.

        We were in different groups. I was in a group 4BH, which means that my focus was lumbar with hip. Erin in group 3B; a group where thoracic is the focus. Each week every group gets a new leader which I thought was really good because everyone has a slightly different touch or way of explaining something. Also, by four weeks you knew almost all of the therapists from seeing them either in functional or as your leader. And, you search out your favorites/ most beneficial when exercising.

        The food was good but very typical German, feel free to ask for clarification on anything I'm talking about! Assigned seating guaranteed no mealtime lonliness and the time to form bonds when one might hide (especially in the face of so many foreign speakers.) Patients arrive and depart on Weds, so each Wed brought fresh people to the table as some left.) Entertainment included weekend day trips, hobby room in the evenings, swimming every evening, walking, TV, ping pong, etc.

        Patients were grouped by ages. My group was all adults; my daughter (12) was in a teen group ages 12+, and there was 'junior training' for 11 and under. There were ALL kinds of patients: kindergarteners, many teens, 80 yr olds, men, post-surgical and post-revision surgical, kyphosis, dwarf, mentally retarded, mild curves in the single digits, and some in the 80 degree range. People hailed from Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Russia, USA, Ireland, Norway, Sweden. This is just what I saw while I was there. I know they also come from New Zealand. I think Erin saw an Australian.

        You really do not need to speak German but will get more out of it if you do. There are some lectures I passed on because my German isn't good enough. Non-native German speakers get about four single therapy sessions at the beginning to help clarify words and moves. Every week you get a private breathing therapy session to work on the special breathing (Schroth RAB, breathing into the concavities, etc) and 3 messages during a four week session.

        While we were gone, my husband fitted out our 'rec room' with many helpful mirrors and wall bars. Stools, chairs, poles, mats, exercise balls, and a few rice bags round it out.

        We have a good start and will be happy to answer any questions. I believe this has and will help BOTH of us.

        Progress: Within four weeks you could SEE the kyphosis patients make progress. Amazing to witness. I 'got taller' by a few mm but believe it is because of the extensive back and ab training we did. After about two weeks, one day the newer adolescent patient at my table 'grew' with the first erect posture she had ever presented at the table (at the clinic.) I positively remarked to her and her mother. The girl commented, it's EASIER to sit up straight now. It feels right. Her dad visited a week later and was wiggling in his seat, trying to match her posture!

        We have measureably decreased rotation. You can see my back straighten during exercises and I believe it IS straighter now. Xrays will PROVE but I'm waiting a few more months on those. Until then, I will continue to exercise. My daughter has/ is working with a Cheneau but I'm 'hedging our bets' on both approaches. She will exercise to maintain her abdominal and back strength, and count on the extra derotation and pressure from the Cheneau for now. For me, it's all Schroth and I will see how much farther I can go!
        Emily, 43
        approx 50 T, 36 T/L

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by 3sisters View Post
          I continue training at home (and away, like in Wales
          Please send special diet requests in advance as I'm petrified we get exposed like the German clinic. Scottish people only eat haggis and potatoes, even when they live in Wales. Do you need an interpreter, or can you just watch the Shrek films several times before you come? Can you teach me how to do an Arabesque?
          07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
          11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
          05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
          12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
          05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

          Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

          Comment


          • #80
            Interesting report.

            I just wanted to comment on you signature lines,

            progressed from AIS upper 20s in thoracic and lumbar (although at skeletal maturity, ha ha)
            and

            Determined to do better for my daughter than what I knew then,
            Don't beat yourself up. In your situation, you would be told the SAME thing you were told then. There has been no movement on this in the ensuing years. Surgeons would tell a person with curves less than 30* at skeletal maturity to go home and that they are out of the woods. They are playing some odds but nobody knows what those odds are.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • #81
              This non-scoliotic adult is about to embark on a 4 week home Schroth course, instructed by my daughter. Save me!

              Originally posted by 3sisters View Post
              We did have rotations read, though. My lumbar rotation was consistent 5 to 5 (end of stay). My thoracic went from 10 degrees to 8/9. Erin's thoracic went from 11 to 10; her lumbar went from 4 to 1.
              Excellent on Erin's lumbar rotation. Did they drill the 5 Schroth pelvic corrections into you both? To assist re-aligning everything above, we've found those corrections fundamental and hugely helpful.

              The food was good but very typical German, feel free to ask for clarification on anything I'm talking about! Assigned seating guaranteed no mealtime lonliness and the time to form bonds when one might hide (especially in the face of so many foreign speakers.) Patients arrive and depart on Weds, so each Wed brought fresh people to the table as some left.) Entertainment included weekend day trips, hobby room in the evenings, swimming every evening, walking, TV, ping pong, etc.
              My wife better do the shopping then, so's we don't get bad press! I'll get Tamzin onto the seating arrangements to guarantee maximum mischief. "Ping-pong" (table tennis) table is already set up in the stables and the mountains will still be here when you arrive.

              People hailed from Germany, Austria, Ukraine, Russia, USA, Ireland, Norway, Sweden. This is just what I saw while I was there. I know they also come from New Zealand. I think Erin saw an Australian.
              Ach, no Scots instruction then...

              Every week you get a private breathing therapy session to work on the special breathing (Schroth RAB, breathing into the concavities, etc)...
              Your RAB instruction was much better than ours. We've learned it for ourselves after attending the clinic; it'll be interesting to see you and Erin perform it as intended. Breathing with RAB has, over the last 8 months, become a way of life for Tamzin. At our last medical appointment, compliments flowed regarding how corrected Tamzin lower left ribs are since her x-ray in July 2011. Seemingly, once those lower ribs angle downwards, it is difficult to correct them. Still work required 'flicking out' the lower right 11th and 12th ribs; Tamzin can move them with RAB, but we haven't focused enough on doing that. We you and Erin instructed on this?

              While we were gone, my husband fitted out our 'rec room' with many helpful mirrors and wall bars. Stools, chairs, poles, mats, exercise balls, and a few rice bags round it out.
              Does your husband correspond with my wife? That's exactly what we returned to after our month of Schroth.

              Progress: Within four weeks you could SEE the kyphosis patients make progress. Amazing to witness. I 'got taller' by a few mm but believe it is because of the extensive back and ab training we did. After about two weeks, one day the newer adolescent patient at my table 'grew' with the first erect posture she had ever presented at the table (at the clinic.) I positively remarked to her and her mother. The girl commented, it's EASIER to sit up straight now. It feels right. Her dad visited a week later and was wiggling in his seat, trying to match her posture!
              Great feedback.

              We have measureably decreased rotation. You can see my back straighten during exercises and I believe it IS straighter now. Xrays will PROVE but I'm waiting a few more months on those. Until then, I will continue to exercise. My daughter has/ is working with a Cheneau but I'm 'hedging our bets' on both approaches. She will exercise to maintain her abdominal and back strength, and count on the extra derotation and pressure from the Cheneau for now. For me, it's all Schroth and I will see how much farther I can go!
              Martha Hawes the 2nd. Congratulations for taking the plunge, the commitment and the improvement. Red carpet is ordered for your arrival.
              07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
              11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
              05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
              12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
              05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

              Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                Schroth = PT. If you think PT doesn't work then you don't want to drop $5200 on Schroth.
                Is this the sort of money asked by Schroth Clinics?

                Comment


                • #83
                  I saw a clinical trial for Scroth listed on the NIH web site:

                  http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...oliosis&rank=2

                  Apologies if this is old news. I did a search and read a few Scroth threads but didn't see it posted. I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.

                  I don't post here very often because of the negativity and criticism that posters often receive--so I hope I don't regret this. Good luck to those of you who are trying to move forward.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by aterry View Post
                    I saw a clinical trial for Scroth listed on the NIH web site...I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.
                    Excellent news, aterry. No negativity from me. I've been doing Schroth with my 11yr old daughter for a year...with some success. :-)

                    I don't post here very often because of the negativity and criticism that posters often receive--so I hope I don't regret this. Good luck to those of you who are trying to move forward.
                    It is good luck that there are people like you out there informing others of opportunities to gain knowledge.
                    Regards
                    Tom
                    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      PS: one concern with the study is the proposed 5 x 1 hour sessions!(it might be 2 x 5 one hours sessions). The original K Schroth clinic had kids 8 hours a day for 3 - 6 months, this to "erase the scoliotic subconscious" so crucial to correction. That is a fundamental part of "Schroth"...it will not be achieved by a few sessions.
                      07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                      11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                      05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                      12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                      05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                      Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Although I don't believe there's ever been a controlled trial, there have been other short-term Schroth studies. What we really need to see is something long-term.
                        Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                        Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                          Although I don't believe there's ever been a controlled trial, there have been other short-term Schroth studies. What we really need to see is something long-term.
                          It is unclear whether the study will be using Weiss's "New Power Schroth" stuff (3D made easy, Physiologic, etc.) or K Schroth's original method. Despite Weiss's attempts to label his program as something different, it is the same. The only significant difference would be the de-emphasis on auto-elongation because of the concern with reducing natural kyphosis and lordosis. (The concern is delusory, i.e., the original program adequately addresses restoring or maintaining the sagittal profile.)
                          Regardless, getting ANY trials in the US, UK and Canada is a step forward out of the darkness....short, medium or long term. They're looking for 100 kids, another plus. Parental involvement, very wise.

                          PS: short-term is pretty good, actually. 3 years, short term, takes a kid through the heavy growth spurts, results will be extremely useful for the short term.
                          07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                          11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                          05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                          12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                          05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                          Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Why are you talking about a trial for 10to18 year olds in a thread called "Have any adults tried Schroth Therapy?", 'adults' being the operative word here, it's a bit frustrating for adults who are looking for info, don't you think??

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by aterry View Post
                              I saw a clinical trial for Scroth listed on the NIH web site:
                              http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/N...oliosis&rank=2
                              Apologies if this is old news. I did a search and read a few Scroth threads but didn't see it posted. I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.
                              Found another link on your study, aterry.

                              http://www.orthopaedicsurgery.ualber...Newsletter.pdf

                              I will follow this with interest.

                              PS: I wouldn't bother about surly muppet poster negativity...there's an ignore button to obliterate them or you can just pity them. :-)
                              07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                              11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                              05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                              12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                              05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                              Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by aterry View Post
                                I think it's very good news that there is a clinical trial.
                                This is from the additional link:

                                Non-surgical Treatment for Scoliosis
                                Effect of Exercises for scoliosis
                                We have enrolled 27 patients in a pilot randomized controlled
                                trial to develop a prediction rule to identify patients with
                                adolescent idiopathic scoliosis who may respond to Schroth
                                exercises
                                . This 6 month trial of biweekly exercise sessions
                                will continue until 100 patients with scoliosis complete
                                participation. Abstracts have been submitted to report on
                                feasibility measures and effect sizes calculated for pain,
                                function, quality-of-life, radiographic and surface topography
                                outcomes.


                                Now, that will be interesting, aterry. I wonder if they'll include stuff like attitude?
                                07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
                                11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
                                05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
                                12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
                                05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

                                Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

                                Comment

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