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Thread: Good news! Finally some good news.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    184

    Good news! Finally some good news.

    We just got back from our 6 month check with one of the top orthopedic surgeons in the states. Our hospital now has the state of the art EOS ultra low dose radiation scanner, so less exposure to radiation.It uses 10 times less radiation than a regular x- Ray and 89%less than a CTscan of the spine.
    children's hospital is proud to be one of the two in the country that has this unit.

    What a blessing to be so close by to this new technology.

    Other great news! Her curves were reduced from the first radiographs taken.....Yea!
    top rt thoracic reduced by 5 degrees. And left lumbar reduced by 2 degrees.
    When I asked what is the marginal error in measuring, Our Orthopedic stated within 3 degrees. so I don't remember who online here said it was higher, they were misinformed, it's within 3 degrees....right from the top orthopedic surgeon mouth

    So happy, and she wears a Boston brace and this was after 24 hours out of brace.
    Last measurement was rt th 27 now 22
    Lt lumbar 27. Now 25
    IN brace it's less, anyway I am happy it didn't progress and some improvement is noticed. We all left happy.
    Last edited by Bigbluefrog; 12-20-2010 at 06:13 PM.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    6,794
    What I hear most often quoted is 5 degrees margin of error. In truth, it could be higher than that:

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...2cMzEg&cad=rja

    "The intraobserver variability was +9.6 degrees and the interobserver variability +11.8 degrees."

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...8y3RYA&cad=rja

    "The variability in measurement of the angle of curvature in scoliotic spines was estimated by having 50 anteroposterior roentgenograms read in random order twice by five orthopedic surgeons. The average error was +/-9 (+/-2 SD) on duplicate readings, with a range of +/-5[degrees] to +/-15.1[degrees] for individual orthopedists. Difficulty in reproducibly choosing the end vertebrae prior to making the angle measurment appeared to be the major source of measurement error."
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
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    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
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    Whether or not it is within the margin of error, no progression is a good thing. Congrats!
    1993, Age 13, 53* Right T Curve w/ Left L compensatory
    2010, Age 30, 63* or 68* (depending on the doc) Right T Curve w/ Left L compensatory

    http://livingtwisted.wordpress.com/

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    184
    Thanks Mereha,

    Linda I could give you the number to called and discuss this with our surgeon.



    Truth of the matter is higher technology, state of the art equipment here, The EOS has a sharper more detailed image with less radiation. It lowers the marginal error.

    so it's only 3 degrees marginal error.

    Unless you research the right equipment, you may be getting old information or out of date info. It appears your information is from 1987 and 1993.....not up to date 17 years or more.
    Last edited by Bigbluefrog; 12-21-2010 at 05:49 PM.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    184
    You might want to goolge : EOS ultra low dose radiation scanner

    I can't post links from my iPad.
    It is amazing technology, and when the doctor looked at the 3d vs 2d image he can get precise measurements within 3 degrees of marginal error. So with those fact in placed
    She would of improved with the newer measurements or at least stabilized....very happy about that.

    the EOS ...only two in this country - Wisconsin and California.

    what we have done: is wear traditional brace for borderline curves 27 degrees at time of bracing, we chose the Boston brace
    16 to 20 hours a day,
    Half an hour of PT everyday (schroth) for strength and flexibility
    Some chiro care & massage therapy

    I still believe in PT as beneficial treatment, but also follow recommended treatment from the OS with bracing.

    I hope we continue with good results.....
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    184
    Data from a more updated scientific report on EOS this is from 2008

    http://ijahsp.nova.edu/articles/vol6num2/pdf/Roush.pdf
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,164
    I haven't done any formal studies, but my son's measurements on the same xray are all over the map. I had one doctor measure the same xray as 12 degrees larger on the second read, and I had different doctors measure the same xray with differences of: 6 degrees, 7 degrees, and 12 degrees.

    I can't imagine how I'm ever going to tell if he's progressing, staying the same, or reducing his angle
    Last edited by hdugger; 12-21-2010 at 06:14 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    299
    Actually, there are private practices in the US that have the EOS. I am aware of one in NJ and one in VA, and there may be others. The one in NJ declined to do scans on non-patients. The one in VA was fine with it. A very reasonable cost, and will send you off with a disk for your doctor, so I was told.
    mamandcrm

    G diagnosed 6/08 at almost 7 with 25*
    Providence night brace, increased to 35*
    Rigo-Cheneau brace full-time 12/08-4/10
    14* at 10/09 OOB x-ray
    11* at 4/10 OOB x-ray
    Wearing R-C part-time since 4/10
    latest OOB xray 5/14 13*
    currently going on 13 yrs old

    I no longer participate in this forum though I will update signature from time to time with status

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
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    Quote Originally Posted by mamandcrm View Post
    Actually, there are private practices in the US that have the EOS. I am aware of one in NJ and one in VA, and there may be others. The one in NJ declined to do scans on non-patients. The one in VA was fine with it. A very reasonable cost, and will send you off with a disk for your doctor, so I was told.
    good news ..better technology in more places

    IN my info it says one of two EOS units in pediatric hospitals in this country.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    I haven't done any formal studies, but my son's measurements on the same xray are all over the map. I had one doctor measure the same xray as 12 degrees larger on the second read, and I had different doctors measure the same xray with differences of: 6 degrees, 7 degrees, and 12 degrees.

    I can't imagine how I'm ever going to tell if he's progressing, staying the same, or reducing his angle
    that is frustrating! =(

    Ours was a 3-d image from a EOS scanner, not sure if the technical name is radiograph or 3-d image.

    Some of those older documents have a higher error margin, over the last decade with computer technology and digital readings... the margin of error has been significantly reduced.
    Then do compare apples to apples, same doctor reading, same system, same place same position,
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,090
    Congrats Bigbluefrog! What great news! Congrats to your daughter for wearing her brace. :-)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Bruno, CA
    Posts
    271
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    Data from a more updated scientific report on EOS this is from 2008

    http://ijahsp.nova.edu/articles/vol6num2/pdf/Roush.pdf
    That article isn't about the x-ray that you're talking about.

    Regardless, improving the technology could definitely improve the margin of error. And the low dose scanner is definitely a pretty cool thing. However, one of the reasons for the margin of error is that the curve can change throughout the day as well as positioning is extremely important, i.e. human error. I'd love to start seeing some studies published on this. Especially if they can use the 3-d capability and measure things like vertebral rotation. Less radiation and more information. win-win for sure.

    And... great news for you and your daughter!!
    Last edited by skevimc; 12-22-2010 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Forgot to add the congratulations!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    184
    When we were measured in 3 D her curves were significantly less than originally thought, but to compare apples to apples he converted image to 2 d, and still recieved improvements.

    I hope that by posting this, that most will see that bracing and PT works. it may not work for everyone, but it can work. I continue to pray and hope her Improvement continues.

    the brace and diabetic insets are working but at a great price, bruising and discomfort.

    I can't wait till it's over with.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,164
    That's great news! You guys really got the big double-whammy. I'm glad she's making it through so well (and big kudos to you on that)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    When we were measured in 3 D her curves were significantly less than originally thought, but to compare apples to apples he converted image to 2 d, and still recieved improvements.

    I hope that by posting this, that most will see that bracing and PT works. it may not work for everyone, but it can work. I continue to pray and hope her Improvement continues.

    the brace and diabetic insets are working but at a great price, bruising and discomfort.

    I can't wait till it's over with.
    Hello,
    Your daughter is the same age as my daughter. My daughter also wears a Boston brace. She has worn it for 3 years. Her curve progressed at our last visit a month ago from 27 degrees to 36 degrees. We have been looking into the Schroth method, but the closest clinic to us (Houston) is in Arizona!! It's very frustrating. I don't know how we can do that. I have a book about the Schroth method, but it's hard to understand. Do you go to the clinic in Wisconsin for the exercises?

    Has your doctor mentioned whether she has finished growing or not? How long does she wear her brace everyday? My daughter has been very compliant about wearing it, so it was very discouraging to hear that she had progressed.

    Thank you!!

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