Questions fo rour Clear Chiro, Smith

[Ballet Mom]

Science is the only game in town.

LOL. Apparently the doctors, scientists, professors, engineers and analysts who perform studies showing that bracing is effective aren't engaged in science.

[Pooka1]

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick, in "How To Build A Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days Later" (1978)


"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal." -- Groucho Marx, quoted in Philosophy on the Go (2007) by Joey Green, p. 78

[mariaf]

She doesn't have kids best interests at heart.

I would have to disagree. I think that quite to the contrary, Pooka often takes heat for saying things she feels might help a child, even if it doesn't happen to be a popular opinion. It is fair for you to disagree with her and have a different opinion, but to say that she (or anyone for that matter) doesn't have kids best interests at heart is not a judment you, or any of us, is qualified to make. I think most folks here (with the exception of those who might profit from various treatment methods) have their hearts in the right place, regardless of what their views are.

[Ballet Mom]

I would have to disagree. I think that quite to the contrary, Pooka often takes heat for saying things she feels might help a child, even if it doesn't happen to be a popular opinion. It is fair for you to disagree with her and have a different opinion, but to say that she (or anyone for that matter) doesn't have kids best interests at heart is not a judment you, or any of us, is qualified to make. I think most folks here (with the exception of those who might profit from various treatment methods) have their hearts in the right place, regardless of what their views are.

I would suggest that she should allow other opinions to be heard and discussed then, without her trying to quash them through disparagement, belittlement and accusations of mental instability and she the all-knowing arbiter of Truth.

[leahdragonfly]

I would suggest that she should allow other opinions to be heard and discussed then, without her trying to quash them through disparagement, belittlement and accusations of mental instability and she the all-knowing arbiter of Truth.

BalletMom,

I try so hard to ignore your inflammatory posts, but I really have to point out that your tactics these days primarily include disparagement, belittlement and personal attacks. I rarely if ever see you offer meaningful support to individuals that need it.

Your daughter has apparently had a successful outcome and that is great news. It would now be most healthy for you to get on with your life elsewhere. So why are you still on this forum, anyway? It is clearly to stir up trouble. How sad.

[hdugger]

I'd suggest that both Pooka and Ballet Mom have had children with successful outcomes (through different methods) and want to make sure that other children have the benefit of those methods.

I'm not certain that their method of helping always works, but I am certain that that's their motivation.

I can say that my son and I, personally, have been greatly helped by both of their participation and I sincerely hope that both of them remain on the forum.

[livingtwisted]

I agree that both Pooka1 and BalletMom have good intentions. There is nothing wrong with wanting to share what has worked for you and your family. But there is no one right way that works for everyone so the trouble begins when the message is that their way is the only way. It makes one start to wonder if their participation is just a way to validate that they made the right decision. Again, that is completely understandable since they are all tough decisions. But it means the result is not that beneficial to others on this forum trying to make their own decisions.

[hdugger]

But it means the result is not that beneficial to others on this forum trying to make their own decisions.

Yes, exactly.

I'm growing increasingly surprised that surgery is still described as a permanent treatment for scoliosis. It seems clear that, while there is a subset of the scoliosis population who will only need a single surgery, there are a large number for whom scoliosis surgery may just be step one in ongoing treatments and problems. That large number includes anyone for whom the curve extends into the lumbar spine, or anyone with kyphosis.

For those of us who fall into this latter camp, the difficultly in holding a coherent discussion about anything *other* than surgery is heartbreaking. While I am very happy to hear that their are children who are expected to be "cured" by scoliosis surgery, I would appreciate the opportunity of trying to figure out how to treat my son, whose curve likely would *not* be cured by surgery.

[Pooka1]

It makes one start to wonder if their participation is just a way to validate that they made the right decision.

Just curious... do you think evidence can exist entirely separate and apart from any particular kid's case?

Whether evidence exists or not is not a function of any one kid's trajectory, yes?

If evidence exists, whether the evidence points to "A" or "B" is not controlled by any one kid's outcome, yes?

Since I don't think you are actually claiming anything this ridiculous then I guess you are saying I am spinning the evidence to validate what happened to my kids, yes? If I have done that, please point it out where so I can correct it.

Thanks.

At a minimum, there has to be some effort to master the fact case. There are players here who either haven't tried or can't. If you don't think I'm in that group then please stop lumping me into it. That group exists and is a persistent problem in my opinion because they are not evidence driven.

[Pooka1]

While I am very happy to hear that their are children who are expected to be "cured" by scoliosis surgery, I would appreciate the opportunity of trying to figure out how to treat my son, whose curve likely would *not* be cured by surgery.

And besides McIntire, who exactly in this sandbox do you think can help you figure that out? We are a bunch of bunnies. I suggest there is nobody here who can help you. I don't see where your opportunity is limited. Orthopedic surgeons are the only game in town though the SOSORTS types are certainly trying to advance the ball down the court.

[hdugger]

I don't expect anyone on the forum to treat my son. I only want some place where I can share ideas about his treatment. Anything that furthers that exchange of ideas is a help. Anything that discourages it is a hindrance.

What has been useful for us is the chance to look over some of the exercise research. I hand out special kudos to Dingo, in particular, for holding fast against all adversity in the torso rotation thread. Without his perseverance, I don't think my son and I would have searched out a second physical therapist whose exercises definitely reduced my son's pain and seemingly reduced his curve (although the numbers are still out on that). In fact, without his participation, I would never have posted in this forum, and participating has been helpful for us, and hopefully our participation has been helpful for others.

Likewise, I hope that my son's experience with reducing his head-forward posture with massage has been useful to someone.

Kudos again to whoever first posted the SEAS experimental results. That's something that we're strongly considering following up on. Likewise, I received personal messages about the Scroth practioner in Palo Alto that we may follow up on. And I think the discussion about Vitamin D may bear fruit in the future.

I'm not certain what town you live in, but orthopedic surgeons aren't playing in my town for my son. What they can offer, at the moment, is the likely outcome of stopping progression in his scoliotic curve by creating a painful, disfiguring, and untreatable outcome in his kyphotic curve. I can't imagine that any parent would consider that an acceptable outcome - in any case, it is not acceptable to me. If that's his only surgical alternative, then I need other alternatives to hold off surgery for as long as possible so that he can have as normal a life as possible for as long as possible before he's forced down the surgical route.

For that reason, the burden rests on me to try and figure out how to treat one curve without permanently disfiguring him in the other curve. If hard science catches up with me and shows me a clear way out, I'll take it. Until then, I am on my own and looking for people to bounce ideas off of and share experiences and research with.

I don't require anyone to help with that research, but I do ask for people not to actively hinder it.

[Pooka1]

I don't require anyone to help with that research, but I do ask for people not to actively hinder it.

How have you been actively hindered in your research on this site?

And I am just curious as to why you value the TRS posts from a certain poster and yet you openly admit you do not read the biochem posts from the same person. I don't get it.

[hdugger]

Try reading back through the torso rotation thread. I only made it to page 7 (out of 40). Instead of discussing the research, there are various side threads about 1) whether the research should have been published (opinion); 2) why the research didn't receive further funding (opinion, which upon discussion with McIntire, is probably unsupported); 3) how exercise won't work because Elisa Miller has to exercise for 40 hours a week (proved untrue, with just the slightest effort to investigate); 3) how exercise won't work because Martha Hawes has to exercise for 4 hours a day (proved untrue with just the slightest effort to investigate).

And that doesn't include the pages upon pages of personal invective.

These aren't conjectures about exercise being corrected by fact. They are examinations of published research about exercise being sidetracked by unsupported opinion and erroneous conjecture. And, again, that doesn't include the pages upon pages of person invective.

There's a reason scientists don't do their research inside a wrestling ring - it's frankly distracting to think. Likewise, in public forums, it is very easy to lay psychological mine field that makes it psychologically uncomfortable for people to pursue certain lines of thought. This is not to say that the mine fields are laid with malice or even intent - just that they get laid, and their presence warps all discussions in certain areas.

I could intentionally create the same mine fields in the surgical area, and produce the same effect on surgical discussions. I don't say that as a threat - I'd have no interest in doing such a thing. I'm just saying that, having studied public forums for 15 years now, I have a pretty precise sense of how these things work and what their effect is.

As to why I follow certain lines of research and not others - it's some barely conscious set of instincts, propensities, and observations. I have a pretty strong sense that my son got to the place he did by a mixture of body type and prolonged asymmetric forces, with some decrease in Vitamin D thrown in, and I know that muscular work has helped reverse some of the effects. For that reason, I'm not much interested in other areas of research, although I do scan through them occasionally. I also shy away from bracing, because I worry about its effect on the muscles. But I suspect it's more useful in cases which aren't as strongly muscular-based as my son's is.

[Pooka1]

Okay I think I have a slightly better idea of your position.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on several of those points.

[Ballet Mom]

I don't expect anyone on the forum to treat my son. I only want some place where I can share ideas about his treatment. Anything that furthers that exchange of ideas is a help. Anything that discourages it is a hindrance.

What has been useful for us is the chance to look over some of the exercise research. I hand out special kudos to Dingo, in particular, for holding fast against all adversity in the torso rotation thread. Without his perseverance, I don't think my son and I would have searched out a second physical therapist whose exercises definitely reduced my son's pain and seemingly reduced his curve (although the numbers are still out on that). In fact, without his participation, I would never have posted in this forum, and participating has been helpful for us, and hopefully our participation has been helpful for others.

Likewise, I hope that my son's experience with reducing his head-forward posture with massage has been useful to someone.

Kudos again to whoever first posted the SEAS experimental results. That's something that we're strongly considering following up on. Likewise, I received personal messages about the Scroth practioner in Palo Alto that we may follow up on. And I think the discussion about Vitamin D may bear fruit in the future.

I'm not certain what town you live in, but orthopedic surgeons aren't playing in my town for my son. What they can offer, at the moment, is the likely outcome of stopping progression in his scoliotic curve by creating a painful, disfiguring, and untreatable outcome in his kyphotic curve. I can't imagine that any parent would consider that an acceptable outcome - in any case, it is not acceptable to me. If that's his only surgical alternative, then I need other alternatives to hold off surgery for as long as possible so that he can have as normal a life as possible for as long as possible before he's forced down the surgical route.

For that reason, the burden rests on me to try and figure out how to treat one curve without permanently disfiguring him in the other curve. If hard science catches up with me and shows me a clear way out, I'll take it. Until then, I am on my own and looking for people to bounce ideas off of and share experiences and research with.

I don't require anyone to help with that research, but I do ask for people not to actively hinder it.

Amen! (lol)

I seem to remember good ol' mamamax posting the SEAS research the first time I saw it.

I agree about Dingo. I'd like my daughter to give the torso rotation a try, but those machines are enormous and I can't imagine setting one up at my house, and we don't have time in our schedule to drive somewhere to visit a machine.

I do recall somehow being able to utilize therabands on a doorhandle, but I'm not exactly sure how that would work and whether or not it would be as effective as a machine.

It certainly would be nice to discuss all this without being told, every single post, one is not capable of rational thought or scientific reasoning because of a belief in God. The arrogance in that attitude is appalling in my book.