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Thread: Questions fo rour Clear Chiro, Smith

  1. #1
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    Questions fo rour Clear Chiro, Smith

    I am collecting these into a new thread since Mamamax polluted the other one.

    1. How many patients have you treated with curves <30*?

    2. How does the rate at which they reach 50* differ from natural history?

    3. How many patients have you treated with curves >30*?

    4. How does the rate at which they reach 50* differ from natural history?

    5. How has Clear done with kids in the growth spurt with curves <30* to start?

    6. How has Clear done with kids in the growth spurt with curves >30* to start?

    No arm-waving... just the numbers from your practice.

    7. Do you belong to an evidence-based chiro group? If so which one?

    8. How exactly are evidence-based chiros different than regular chiros?

    9. What exactly do you do that makes you evidence-based that you didn't do before you were evidence-based?

    10. If a child has Scoliscore done and has a score of <41, do you send them home and save them the treatment costs or do you recommend Clear treatment even though there is a 0% chance of reaching 40*?

    This should be about 75% of the people who come in with smallish curves.

    11. Now it maybe you don't get many people who come in with smallish curves but do you still give people will large curves Scoliscore?

    12. Would you give a person with a 40* curve Scoliscore? As you know, that is the cutoff of the test. Essentially, you don't need to do the test to know if that person will reach 40*.

    13. Have you taken your daughter to an orthopedic surgeon to find out if there is a scoliosis driving the posture issues?

    14. Do you care about the bunnies? I suggest all these questions are what the bunnies want and need to know except perhaps the one about your daughter which they probably want to know but don't need to know.

    Thanks.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  2. #2
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    Appreciate the questions

    Pooka1,
    I appreciate the questions you are asking. As soon as I have a moment, I will answer them as best I can...and thank you for no mudslinging! :-)

    Sincerely,
    Dr. Jacqueline Smith

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    Okay thanks. I hope it doesn't take undo amounts of time. This shouldn't be like a homework assignment but rather a chance for you to explain Clear to the bunnies.

    Also, could you please explain what "evidence-based chiropractic" is to Dovorany over on fixscoliosis? He doesn't know that is so I'm guessing Clear is not associating itself with evidence-based chiro.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #4
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    Hi Pooka1,

    With regards to Dr. Dovorany, he is one of the most intelligent, scientifically based chiropractors I have ever met. He had valid points with regards to CLEAR being targeted a bit more often than other techniques and not always in the kindest of lights. His response on Fixscoliosis.com was warranted. Not all techniques and procedures work for everyone. Being that CLEAR is relatively new, I understand the questions and the concerns. But, I assure you, that each one of us involved with CLEAR truly has the best intentions of the patient at heart. Dr. Dovorany is no exception to this.

    With regards to the questions, as soon as my time frees up I will work on getting back to you. Until then, if you have any other questions or concerns please feel free to ask!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angele1 View Post
    Hi Pooka1,

    With regards to Dr. Dovorany, he is one of the most intelligent, scientifically based chiropractors I have ever met. He had valid points with regards to CLEAR being targeted a bit more often than other techniques and not always in the kindest of lights. His response on Fixscoliosis.com was warranted. Not all techniques and procedures work for everyone. Being that CLEAR is relatively new, I understand the questions and the concerns. But, I assure you, that each one of us involved with CLEAR truly has the best intentions of the patient at heart. Dr. Dovorany is no exception to this.
    Is this responsive to the narrow issue I raised that Dovorany stated he doesn't know what evidence-based chiro is? If I, as someone who scarcely could know less about this stuff, know about evidence-based chiro then I don't understand how he doesn't. Do you?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #6
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    Let's not hang on semantics

    Hey Pooka1,
    Let's not do tit for tat...ok? Dr. Dovorany is very much aware of evidence based outcomes.

    The more important thing here is to get the questions answered and to hopefully help as many people as we can get the care that they need and/or want. Don't you agree?

    I understand your need for evidence. Alot of the evidence we have right now is in the cases we treat on a daily basis. We are and have been trying to get articles submitted. This takes time and money. Soooooo, if you could be a tiny bit patient, I do believe that you will get the answers that you seek. The only thing I could possilby ask is if you could maybe, just maybe not be so quick to make negative statements about CLEAR doctors. Maybe we could all just play a little nicer together? The fact of the matter is, we are all playing the same game with a common goal: to make the road traveled for these patients just a bit easier, to create an environment that offers hope and guidance, to perhaps find a better way. If you think about it, we want the same things...answers.

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    what about excessive radiation exposure with Clear

    Hi Angele,

    I am very alarmed to hear just how many x-rays are taken of children undergoing Clear treatment. I am just wondering how that excessive radiation exposure can be justified?

    What is the protocol for x-rays during treatment? I have heard of children having as many as 8 x-rays during one treatment session, and then also having another full set of x-rays on the way out the door. How many x-rays does this add up to per year--it sounds like a huge number of x-rays. I hope the children are meticulously shielded (gonads and breasts).

    I am very curious to hear your comments. As a mother of a young JIS patient, I agonize over every x-ray (and we are on the q 6 months plan for now).

    Gayle
    Gayle, age 49
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    5/10 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    5/16 6 yrs post-op, 24*T/ 22* L, mild increase in curves, watching

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angele1 View Post
    Hey Pooka1,
    Let's not do tit for tat...ok? Dr. Dovorany is very much aware of evidence based outcomes.

    The more important thing here is to get the questions answered and to hopefully help as many people as we can get the care that they need and/or want. Don't you agree?
    Is this responsive? Could you please just direct him to the fact that Morningstar is a member of an evidence-based chiro group as far as I know and that is why I at least refer to Morningstar as an evidence-based chiro?

    I think having an evidence-based group for chiro has the potential to put chiro on the map.



    I understand your need for evidence. Alot of the evidence we have right now is in the cases we treat on a daily basis. We are and have been trying to get articles submitted. This takes time and money. Soooooo, if you could be a tiny bit patient, I do believe that you will get the answers that you seek.
    Yes of course. Clear has not been around that long to have tons of patients and pubs.

    The only thing I could possilby ask is if you could maybe, just maybe not be so quick to make negative statements about CLEAR doctors. Maybe we could all just play a little nicer together? The fact of the matter is, we are all playing the same game with a common goal: to make the road traveled for these patients just a bit easier, to create an environment that offers hope and guidance, to perhaps find a better way. If you think about it, we want the same things...answers.
    Okay.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #9
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    Smile Evidence based definition please

    Hi Pooka1,
    Just so we are on the same page can you please describe to me in your own words what evidence based chiropractic is to you. This is just so that we are interpreting it the same way. I am looking over the questions and want to make sure they are answered as accurately as possible.

    Thanks!
    Dr. Jacqueline Smith

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angele1 View Post
    Hi Pooka1,
    Just so we are on the same page can you please describe to me in your own words what evidence based chiropractic is to you. This is just so that we are interpreting it the same way. I am looking over the questions and want to make sure they are answered as accurately as possible.

    Thanks!
    Dr. Jacqueline Smith
    HEY! This isn't rocket surgery. I am a lay person. To me, someone who is a member in good standing with an evidence-based chiro organization is an evidence-based chiro TO LITTLE LAY ME. That's it. There is no scientific definition of an "evidence-based chiro" to my knowledge.

    It is the admission that you can't just KNOW it, you have to SHOW it just like in science and medicine. It is forming hypotheses not on whims but on inklings of evidence and testing them to see if they pan out. It's never throwing a hypothesis out there without a plan to test it rigorously. It's trying to falsify wrong ideas and what is left standing might be right. It is NOT attacking things that DO have evidence in their favor.

    Being evidence-based is just a form of intellectual honesty.

    I suppose a chiro can be totally committed to being evidence-based without being a card-carrying member of an evidence-based organization but they have to operate such that evidence is the alpha and omega just like science and medicine work. That means openly rejecting everything you might have been taught in chiro school that is NOT evidence-based like subluxations which has been SHOWN to be imaginary. Any chiro who does not reject subluxations is NOT evidence-based. It's like a litmus test of sorts.

    If you told me Morningstar thought subluxations were not imaginary I would take him out of the evidence-based category.

    Just my opinion. Reasonable people can differ on various points.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #11
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    Terms & Definitions?

    Hi Angele1 - enjoying the conversation. I'm not familiar with the terms though really. Are these anywhere near close?

    Evidence-based medicine (EBM) or evidence-based practice (EBP) aims to apply the best available evidence gained from the scientific method to clinical decision making.[1] It seeks to assess the strength of evidence of the risks and benefits of treatments (including lack of treatment) and diagnostic tests.[2] Evidence quality can range from meta-analyses and systematic reviews of double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials at the top end, down to conventional wisdom at the bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence-based_medicine

    Vertebral subluxation is a term that is commonly used by chiropractors to describe signs and symptoms of the spinal column. Chiropractors also add a visceral component to the definition. Chiropractors maintain that a vertebral subluxation complex is a dysfunctional biomechanical spinal segment (lesion) the same as medical doctors do, but additionally assert that the dysfunction actively alters neurological function, which in turn, is believed to lead to neuromusculoskeletal and visceral disorders. The WHO acknowledges this difference between the medical and chiropractic definitions of a subluxation. Medical doctors only refer to "significant structural displacements" as subluxations, whereas chiropractors suggest that a dysfunctional segment, whether displaced significantly or not, should be referred to as a subluxation.[1] This difference has been noted in the proceedings of the Mercy Center Consensus Conference: "The chiropractic profession refers to this concept as a "subluxation". This use of the word subluxation should not be confused with the term's precise anatomic usage which considers only the anatomical relationships."[2]

    The chiropractic vertebral subluxation complex has been a source of controversy since its inception in 1895 due to its metaphysical origins and claims of far reaching effects on health and disease. Although research into the significance of the chiropractic vertebral subluxation is still ongoing, it has critics and supporters both inside and outside the profession. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_subluxation
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (TV Dr. House, MD)

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  12. #12
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    No two chiros can point to the same spot on a radiograph as to where the subluxation is.

    It is IMAGINARY.

    Next.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #13
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    Chiros blast subluxations

    These are probably our heroic evidence-based chiros doing the blasting...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3A...al_subluxation

    Study pans chiropractic's "subluxation" concept

    Four scholarly chiropractors have concluded that epidemiologic evidence does not support chiropractic's most fundamental theory. Since its inception, the vast majority of chiropractors have postulated that "subluxations" (misalignments) are the cause or underlying cause of ill health and can be corrected with spinal "adjustments."

    After searching the scientific literature, the chiropractic authors concluded:

    * "No supportive evidence is found for the chiropractic subluxation being associated with any disease process or of creating suboptimal health conditions requiring intervention. Regardless of popular appeal, this leaves the subluxation construct in the realm of unsupported speculation. This lack of supportive evidence suggests the subluxation construct has no valid clinical applicability." - Mirtz TA et al. An epidemiological examination of the subluxation construct using Hill's criteria of causation." Chiropractic & Osteopathy 2009, 17:13, 2009

    This new source may well provide some interesting content. It is also evidence that modern reform chiropractors are making their mark in the chiropractic literature. Brangifer (talk) 06:16, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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    Quote Originally Posted by leahdragonfly View Post
    Hi Angele,

    I am very alarmed to hear just how many x-rays are taken of children undergoing Clear treatment. I am just wondering how that excessive radiation exposure can be justified?

    What is the protocol for x-rays during treatment? I have heard of children having as many as 8 x-rays during one treatment session, and then also having another full set of x-rays on the way out the door. How many x-rays does this add up to per year--it sounds like a huge number of x-rays. I hope the children are meticulously shielded (gonads and breasts).

    I am very curious to hear your comments. As a mother of a young JIS patient, I agonize over every x-ray (and we are on the q 6 months plan for now).

    Gayle
    As the parent of a child who was diagnosed very young - and someone who tries to limit the number of x-rays my son receives (whether at the ortho, the dentist, etc.), I too am very interesting in hearing a response to Gayle's post.

    Anyone??

    (p.s. I am also interested in hearing the responses to Sharon's questions at the beginning of this post. As she stated, it should not take undo amounts of time. They are pretty straightforward questions.)
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by mariaf View Post
    As the parent of a child who was diagnosed very young - and someone who tries to limit the number of x-rays my son receives (whether at the ortho, the dentist, etc.), I too am very interesting in hearing a response to Gayle's post.

    Anyone??
    Yes that question is arguably the most important asked to date. Money doesn't compare to health.

    (p.s. I am also interested in hearing the responses to Sharon's questions at the beginning of this post. As she stated, it should not take undo amounts of time. They are pretty straightforward questions.)
    I tried to ask questions that a parent walking in off the street would ask. These are questions I thought Smith would be able to answer off the top of her head in response to that parent. It should take a few minutes I thought. If she doesn't have these numbers crunched ahead of time then how can she answer the parent on these key questions? Has a parent never walked in with these questions? I seriously doubt that as they are obvious.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 12-15-2010 at 03:28 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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