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Thread: Clear - Even lay parents are eating their lunch

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Mamamax, supergenius wrote:



    How the hell can I be "brave enough" when they are screwing around blocking me or hand moderating me or whatever the hell they are doing?

    Genius.
    Pooka's favorite super-genius say:

    Sorry you are mad and taking it out on me with a little name calling (bty, takes one to know one). Will Kalla is the Administrator of the forum and it is he who told me that you have not been blocked. I'll ask him about your log in problems. Hopefully they will be resolved shortly.
    Last edited by mamamax; 11-30-2010 at 05:35 PM.
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (TV Dr. House, MD)

    I'm not weird ... I'm simply - multifactorial

  2. #32
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    Stitzel:

    You don't share my dream in a which scoliosis is treated via it's cause (neurological), not merely managing it's symptoms (biomechanical loading of the curvature).
    Anyone care to comment further on the "neurological" aspect this chiro is promoting? Being new to all of this scolio stuff, I'm curious.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elisa View Post
    Stitzel:



    Anyone care to comment further on the "neurological" aspect this chiro is promoting? Being new to all of this scolio stuff, I'm curious.
    A major hurdle for Clear, Pettibon, and any other chiro types out there is that they are banking on, treating IS as if it is a neuro dysfunction.

    The problem is that as of the POSNA meeting just last year, there is no agreement that the primary problem is neuro and in fact SEVERAL lines of research are being pursued besides neuro in trying to find the primary cause.

    This is a short talk outlining all the various lines of research of which neuro is only one. And even within neuro, some lines of research deal with size of various parts of the brain and such which are things that no type of PT could possibly address. So even in principle, Clear and other chiro approach might not be addressing the cause even if it is neuro and they certainly aren't addressing the cause if it is metabolic or something else.

    http://posna.gmetonline.com/ViewPres...onpackageid=31
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

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  4. #34
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    Spiny Mouse

    POSNA 2009

    Pick the first item:

    "One Day Course - Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis: Understanding the Deformity and Current Treatment"

    Then pick the fifth talk down:

    "SESSION 1: AIS - UNDERSTANDING THE DEFORMITY Top theories on AIS Etiology"

    Presented By: Jack Cheng, MD

    You'll probably be interested in most of the other talks also.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #35
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    Pooka, I'm having a hard time navigating that site and can't seem to find the topics you have posted. Can you give me the direct links? TY.

  6. #36
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    http://posna.gmetonline.com/Presenta...onpackageid=31

    Try that. The pick the first item and then the Cheng talk on the next page.

    The links are squirrelly.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #37
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    Well, I'm having computer problems again apparently b/c I can't see or hear those links so I'll have to check them out later on another computer. I think I need a new laptop from O.

  8. #38
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    Okay that last one definitely works on my computer. The links are very strange on that site.

    If all else fails, find the POSNA 2009 talks somehow. Not the program (.pdf).

    Anyway the bottom line is that if someone ever shows that a metabolic or some other non-neuro etiology is behind IS then the chiros need to immediately hang it up and go home as they are assuming and operating under the assumption that it is not only neuro but a neuro that is amenable to the type of PT they advocate. Those are big unproven unknowns at the moment and it easily could be shown to NOT be neuro at all.

    It would be interesting to see what goes down if that ever happens.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #39
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    You just saved me a new laptop. Hey, I want one!

    This is all so interesting/fascinating. This isn't a disease that's going to run its course like my older boy's disease (HSP) did.

    SO much to learn.

  10. #40
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    Neurological Aspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Elisa View Post
    Stitzel:



    Anyone care to comment further on the "neurological" aspect this chiro is promoting? Being new to all of this scolio stuff, I'm curious.
    Some more info from: http://scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/24

    Neurological abnormalities

    Studies over many years in AIS subjects have shown abnormalities of visual, vestibular, proprioceptive and postural control [67,69,70,94-96,99-104] involving the brain stem [69,95,97-99], cerebral hemispheres and corpus callosum [69,95,104,111-115], though not without controversy. Lowe et al [67] suggested that the pathogenesis of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS) results from a primary pathology in the hind brain causing a defect of central control, or processing in the central nervous system (CNS) that affects a normal growing spine [116]. Neurological abnormalities with AIS have been explained by four fairly comprehensive concepts for pathogenesis:

    (1) visuo-spatial perceptual impairment producing a motor control problem [104];

    (2) body-spatial orientation concept [69];

    (3) neurodevelopmental concept [105,106]; and

    (4) sensory integration disorder [102].

    Abnormal asymmetries of brain structure and function are found in AIS girls for each of cerebral hemispheres [112-115], dichotic listening [112], brain stem [97-99] and, in preliminary research for left thoracic AIS, on MR brain scans, reduced white matter density in the left internal capsule and corpus callosum [114,115].
    Idiopathic, from the Latin meaning: we're idiots 'cause we can't figure out what's causing it (TV Dr. House, MD)

    I'm not weird ... I'm simply - multifactorial

  11. #41
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    What would make it highly interesting if a metabolic etiology let's say is shown is that a present criticism from Clear is that surgeons are only addressing the symptoms and not the cause of IS. They claim that is so because they are ASSUMING the cause is not only neuro but a type of neuro that is amenable/accessible to their PT. These are huge assumptions at this point and the lack of world-changing results from PT so far would be consistent with a non-neuro etiology (or a neuro etiology that is not amenable/accessible by PT).

    If it is metabolic or in fact anything non-neuro then Clear is by definition treating only symptoms and not the cause despite their claims otherwise.

    It could easily go down that way... a non-neuro cause.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  12. #42
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    By 'metabolic' you mean some type of altered growth, e.g. asymmetrical bone growth due to something other than gravity?

    Even if the cause is 'non-neuro', that wouldn't necessarily exclude PT from playing a role in stabilization. I agree that it would put a big dent in their treatment theory/paradigm. But I've generally felt that, based on the way many curves progress, that something triggers the curve and then several other factors are involved in the progression, i.e. vicious cycle. So influencing one, or more, of those factors can help to slow/stabilize the curve. Certainly no argument from me that is treating the symptoms and not the cause. But, under the vicious cycle hypothesis, the symptoms, e.g. progression, are the most damaging not the curve itself.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    By 'metabolic' you mean some type of altered growth, e.g. asymmetrical bone growth due to something other than gravity?
    Yes. In that talk by Cheng, he referred only to the biomechanical things like Heuter-Volkman (sp?) and such as being thought to be secondary. All the others were thought to be candidates for primary cause.

    And of course he started off with the "everything is genetic ultimately" statement which seems accurate given the evidence in hand.

    Even if the cause is 'non-neuro', that wouldn't necessarily exclude PT from playing a role in stabilization.
    Right but it wouldn't address the cause by definition if so. And if is shown that the cause of IS is not something involving anything addressable by PT then it will matter.

    I agree that it would put a big dent in their treatment theory/paradigm.
    Well it would be in the running for mother of all ironies within the field of chiro approaches to scoliosis that claim they are addressing the cause and not just the symptoms.

    But I've generally felt that, based on the way many curves progress, that something triggers the curve and then several other factors are involved in the progression, i.e. vicious cycle. So influencing one, or more, of those factors can help to slow/stabilize the curve. Certainly no argument from me that is treating the symptoms and not the cause. But, under the vicious cycle hypothesis, the symptoms, e.g. progression, are the most damaging not the curve itself.
    I think the importance of it is just in vetting the claims by Clear and perhaps others that the only thing that makes sense (to them) is addressing the root cause and not just the symptoms like the dopey surgeons do. Certainly addressing the symptoms is very fruitful (e.g. surgery) but Clear and other chiros are trying to carve out an area where they claim they and only they are addressing the root cause and that should matter. As far as I can tell. Who knows.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 12-06-2010 at 10:10 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael1960 View Post

    As a parent of a 9 yr. old daughter, it is a blessing to see a curve stabilize. But it is absolutely amazing and wonderful to see it reduce. When we started all of this we were told the curve could not be reduced, only stabilized (at 36 deg). And today, at 18-20 deg.
    I am still waiting for the day that somebody puts the chiropractor and the pediatric orthopedic surgeon in the same office and they work together to develop a scoliosis treatment program for the good of the patient.


    Mike
    Congrats on your daughter's improvements. Unfortunately this forum is not friendly to anyone outside of surgery. Can you send me a private message on that new forum, I would be interested in a more positive environment.


    Btw my pediatric Orthopedic surgeon was very impressed with our success and has been asking what we have been doing. That now they have started massage therapy and PT treatment for patients.

    Some just dont get the dynamics of human anatomy and physiology. The complex spinal connection nervous system connection.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    Unfortunately this forum is not friendly to anyone outside of surgery.
    Even more unfortunately, folks is the US have such a generally poor science education, partly due to nefarious religious factions (young earth creationists), that when they do have to use ration, reason, and logic in the case of a serious medical condition they are COMPLETELY UNARMED. There are any number of exhibits in evidence

    I have tried several times to talk to your scientifically and have asked you to try to listen scientifically. I am not getting through. We can't all be interested in science but if you are going to research a subject like a medical issue, you have to have some basic tools or you will be lost.

    The rubber has hit the road. The chickens have come home to roost. Etc. Etc. Something that actually matters for a change with no room for nonsense.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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