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Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

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  • I'm interpreting wrong, or you was saying that braces in adults (excepf for pain) is an absurd idea?

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    • Originally posted by flerc View Post
      I'm interpreting wrong, or you was saying that braces in adults (except for pain) is an absurd idea?
      Yes bracing adults except for pain is absurd on principle because braces work on the principle of guiding the remaining growth. They don't claim to be able to decrease a structural curve in anyone, especially adults.

      You can't get blood from a stone.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • As Dr. Kiester said, braces should to keep the back with a reduction of the curve. If not it would be like a gypsum in broken a leg without aligning the bones first. (I'm mistaken or gypsum are also used in adults broken legs?)
        For instance a curve of 55º in an flexible adult may be holded in 30º. Probably holding all the back like beeing lying down. In this way there'll be a discs decompression, vertebras would suffer a more simetrical pressure, the body should to incorporate an postural image more straight improving propioception.. certainly I explained all of this in the EDF thread http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ight=edf+flerc
        Why are you so sure that nothing of this would be good in adults? How do you know that the failed tissue (see my previous post #80 about the inclined plane) not allowing the vertebral aligment would not improve enough?
        Surely it would not be sufficient and should to be accomplished with something more as (for instance) some especial kind of PT but I believe that probably is neccesary (and probably the same may be said in kids).
        I cannot be sure about this, but give me the scientist demostration that this idea is only bullshit.
        And please.. not begin again with evidence.. you have a (good) brain, use it.
        Last edited by flerc; 06-29-2014, 02:19 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by flerc View Post
          As Dr. Kiester said, braces should to keep the back with a reduction of the curve. If not it would be like a gypsum in broken a leg without aligning the bones first. (I'm mistaken or gypsum are also used in adults broken legs?)
          ??? Kiester claims bracing makes curves worse, si? Also, I don't understand your analogy with casting broken bones.

          For instance a curve of 55º in an flexible adult may be held in 30º. Probably holding all the back as like lying down. In this way there'll be a discs decompression, vertebras would suffer a more symmetrical pressure, the body should to incorporate a postural image more straight improving propioception. certainly I explained all of this in the EDF thread http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ight=edf+flerc
          You should ask a neurosurgeon about proprioception. I don't see how a person can work on that laying down. Also, I doubt but for an improvement in proprioception, an adult curve would improve. That's the unfounded claim of chiros, not evidence-based people.

          Why are you so sure that nothing of this would be good in adults? How do you know that the failed tissue (see my previous post (#99) about the inclined plane) not allowing the vertebral alignment would not improve enough?
          Surely it would not be sufficient and should to be accomplished with something more as (for instance) some especial kind of PT but I believe that probably is necessary (and probably the same may be said in kids).
          I guess I am just assuming that pretty much everything that can be tried has been tried in the world of PT for scoliosis. Weiss had ~30,000 Shcroth patients and still have nothing. There is no evidence to date that PT permanently affects structural curves. If you know of any, please post it. Given the amount of time and the number of methods out there, absence of evidence is looking like evidence of absence for PT being effective in ADULTS for anything except pain. That's my lay view of the game.

          I cannot be sure about this, but give me the scientist demonstration that this idea is only bullshit.
          And please.. not begin again with evidence.. you have a (good) brain, use it.
          Brain power is useless without evidence to discuss. You can't do "thought experiments" like Einstein did in physics. You can think about what hypothesis to test but you still have to test it. It seems you feel there are effective PT methods out there for adults and that you simply have to find them. If so, I suggest they would have been found by now if they were effective. That is the fundamental difference in our approaches in my opinion.

          If you think EDF works, has your daughter tried it? Did it work?
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            If you think EDF works, has your daughter tried it? Did it work?
            No, EDF don't exists in my country, anyway I never said I'm absolutely sure it may work, certainly I always said that should to be complemented with something else.. what exactly? I dont know.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            ??? Kiester claims bracing makes curves worse, si? Also, I don't understand your analogy with casting broken bones.
            I'll try to be much clear. I mentioned what Kiester said because he talked about the brace protocol, that is, brace must to maintain a curve reduction. He is a surgeon and he must to know about it, regardless what he may thought about effectiveness. So I'm talking about a brace used in the right way. The principle you refered of guiding the remaining growth in kids not seems me to be much effective (because ignorance?) if the spine would not be mainteined straight .

            You may say that a brace is ridiculous in an adult only if it is used in a wrong way, that is, without holding tha spine straight.
            Of course nobody may doubt that with growth remaining the effect would be best because guiding that remaining growth . But is not as I know a necessary condition. A way to realign the bones of a broken leg in an adult is aligning it first and mainteining aligned with a gypsum.. or I'm wrong?.. anyway is only a comparation about the concept that tissues may be realigned even in growth absence.. of course a spine is different, it's not only bone.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            You should ask a neurosurgeon about proprioception.
            They talk about this issues with patients in your country? Please ask you and then say me. I want to know what they think.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            I don't see how a person can work on that laying down.
            I don't understand.. I was talking about normal activities with the curve reduced.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            Also, I doubt but for an improvement in proprioception, an adult curve would improve.
            Only with this I also doubt.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            That's the unfounded claim of chiros, not evidence-based people.
            You are the expert here about what chiropractors in your country says. Clear don't exists in my country, maybe you are right, I don't know.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            Brain power is useless without evidence to discuss.
            We may agree is a powerfull proof in some cases, but thousands or millons of rational discussions with logic conclusions are happening all the time even without evidence.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            You can't do "thought experiments" like Einstein did in physics. You can think about what hypothesis to test but you still have to test it.
            Surgeons didn’t do something similar in the invention of brace and surgery? Medicine seems to be ever more strange for me..
            Of course I cannot test what I think. I would never do the experiment in the inclinated plane to be sure that the spine may remains straight (almost) by herself, but researchers may do it and investigate what EXACTLY is failing in tissues, why not?
            A Body Knowledge about any issue may only be constructed over facts. How many facts are known about scoliosis? I believe that so few.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            It seems you feel there are effective PT methods out there for adults and that you simply have to find them. If so, I suggest they would have been found by now if they were effective. That is the fundamental difference in our approaches in my opinion.
            No, it seems you forgot what we have largely discussed before.
            I believe that a great ammount of resources should to be destinated to understand the scoliosis problem. PT (and others) methods are suggesting that a really good solution may be achieved, not only in some cases. Note that now surgeons are beleiving that stretching a ligament may be the cure for kids. Stretching tissues is the principle followed by so many methods.
            Also I always said that a rational combination of the current methods should to be so much effective (thousands of possibilities) and may be different in each case. To find the exact combination for one may be a matter of lucky.

            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            I guess I am just assuming that pretty much everything that can be tried has been tried in the world of PT for scoliosis. Weiss had ~30,000 Shcroth patients and still have nothing. There is no evidence to date that PT permanently affects structural curves. If you know of any, please post it. Given the amount of time and the number of methods out there, absence of evidence is looking like evidence of absence for PT being effective in ADULTS for anything except pain. That's my lay view of the game.
            well.. look what I think about that here http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...-to-Scoliscore
            Really I was expecting for something like 'Braces in adults are useless as is deduced from the 4º biomathematics law and the..'
            What you said about braces in adults is just because your same argument for all non conventional methods.. it's ever and ever the same for all of them.
            You was only doing your work again.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by hdugger
              Flerc,

              Noone on this forum is going to be able to answer your questions about bracing an adult scoliosis patient - there simply isn't the required expertise in this group.

              The only people who would have some insight into that question that I've spoken to are the people at ISICO, and they consider using both bracing and exercise, even in mature patients. You'd learn far more discussing the question with them then you would talking to anyone here. They're very approachable and have always answered any question I've sent them.
              Thanks Huddger, which is the adress, I'll write them.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                Thanks Huddger, which is the adress, I'll write them.
                Can you please post what they tell you? That would be very helpful.

                Gracias.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • Hi Flerc. I think I have mentioned this before, but EDF casting for older children and teens (as opposed to just infants, as today) used to be a standard treatment here in the UK during the early 1980s and before. I wore EDF casts for ten years. For some reason this treatment fell out of favour, presumably because the results weren't good enough to make the discomfort of wearing casts worth it, especially for teens.

                  Comment


                  • Hi Tonibunny, I remember what you said in these thread..
                    probably the cocient effectiveness/discomfort was not enough high, although it should have been more effective than other braces. And of course it was used in isolation.. even the idea of a genious could not be enough in that case.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                      Can you please post what they tell you? That would be very helpful.

                      Gracias.
                      Sure, if they have not any problem I will post what they say me.

                      No hay de que.

                      Comment


                      • Braces in adults are a cosmetic solution only, they won't change the structural curve, ISICO. Despite posting on this thread a few times I still have to read what this Hawes is about, but frankly I can't see the point...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by hdugger
                          I just wrote to their main email - isico@isico.it - and communicated with Gaby Engelhorn and Alessandra Negrini (who's one of their physical therapists). They've been very direct and honest with me - telling me, for example, that they'd had little experience with high curves like my son's and felt that exercise would be unlikely to reduce his curve, although it might be able to hold it.

                          I strongly recommend corresponding with them - they're really the only people I'm aware of who are actively researching and publishing in this area, and they show every sign of approaching it without any preconceptions.
                          Thanks Huddger, I suppose they should to have something with the acronym.. I hope that.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                            Braces in adults are a cosmetic solution only, they won't change the structural curve, ISICO. Despite posting on this thread a few times I still have to read what this Hawes is about, but frankly I can't see the point...
                            Hawes' case has been around of a while and yet we don't have clinics applying what she learned with people avoiding surgery left and right. In one sense, if her decrease is PT-dependent then it is not a unique situation. In another sense, because she actually expanded her rib cage (front to back) which had the unintended effect of decreasing her curve through biomechanics apparently, if that is not PT-dependent then she in fact permanently changed her structural curve. If that is the mechanism then only people with T curves like hers could even hop to benefit from her approach. Lumbar and double major people need to go home now on that. It can't work in principle for them.

                            And of course the "stopping progression" deal may be happening but is nearly impossible to show.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Alistair View Post
                              Braces in adults are a cosmetic solution only, they won't change the structural curve, ISICO.
                              It's enough clear to all in this thread that this is your belief, since you believe in the most absolutely impossibility of a curve reduction in an adult. I don't believe that SEAS researchers use braces only for cosmetical issues.. they told you that?
                              Really I don't see the point (in your case) in repeating and repeating always the same in different ways without giving a logical and rational justification. Does SEAS researchers said you that the tissiues not a allowing a right vertebral aligment may not be improved? They have justified that?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                                It's enough clear to all in this thread that this is your belief, since you believe in the most absolutely impossibility of a curve reduction in an adult. I don't believe that SEAS researchers use braces only for cosmetical issues.. they told you that?
                                Really I don't see the point (in your case) in repeating and repeating always the same in different ways without giving a logical and rational justification. Does SEAS researchers said you that the tissiues not a allowing a right vertebral aligment may not be improved? They have justified that?
                                Fer, they have admitted they are not affecting the structural curve as far as I know. Just the postural aspect. And it is PT-dependent.

                                If there is a reputable medical group out there besides surgeons doing fusion surgery who claim they are permanently affecting an ADULT structural curve then I haven't seen it. Can you please post who they are?
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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