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Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
    A possible except is Hawes in my opinion because the breathing stuff expanded her rib cage resulting in an unexpected decrease in her curve from the biomechanics of it as far as I can tell. To the extent that her rib cage expansion is no longer exercise dependent then that might be considered a permanent change to an adult spinal curve for the better.
    Thanks for grounding this exchange, Sharon. Interesting point for me (I haven't read the Hawes book). The "breathing stuff" I suspect is similar to the RAB (rotational angular breathing) underpinning almost everything Katernia Schroth did (not what Weiss is doing). Tamzin's left thoracic concavity, as you can see in the comparative photo and the comparative x-rays, is significantly corrected after 5 months BREATHING STUFF. I suspect that her 9lbs weight gain includes growth and perhaps helped the partial remodelling. Every single exercise she does, including basic ballet and cycling, has RAB at it's core. I don't know if this would be possible in an adult.

    ...and the yoga woman and perhaps one other.
    Who's the yoga woman, Sharon?

    It is possible PT can stop progression in kids and maybe even gain permanent ground on a structural curve. That possibility has not been disproven. It's just hard proving anything, one way or the other, with conservative scoliosis treatments.
    FWIW, anecdote even, here's my take. 30:00 minute daily Schroth sessions (or anything else) are insufficient; I believe Weiss et al sell this to make PT palatable to consumers (i.e., how patients are viewed). Muscular strength can be enhanced in the short period, less so endurance. Endurance is necessary = more time required to do endurance work. Proprioception, to be effective, must be nigh on full-time effort for many months, if not years while growing. I'm talking 10 yr olds correcting every 15 minutes every day, more when they're off school. Friends, parents, siblings must know the routine and be assistants (e.g., assess the correction, postively encourage, everyone do it...it must be implanted into an erased/exposed scoliotic reflex habit. Stretching, crucial. Balance work, crucial. Diet, health and above all, 100% focus, determination and sheer enjoyment of the challenge.
    And all that's not sufficient either. Derotation can be achieved; the postural percentage of scoliosis can be removed and this slows or halts progression if the curves are below the gravitational threshold and the rest of the vertebral stack is straightened. But none, or not much of that directly hits the structural curve.
    A compensatory curve can go up and down like a yo-yo. All this fine dressing won't totally correct a structural curve (maybe get 20 - 30% of it).
    After a week getting into wearing her SpineCor (she's now calling it "The Robe" from Scrooge..."Take my robe and come with me." Where we're going, now that she wearing it 20 + hours / day, is into the realm of EXERCISE PUTTING DIRECT PRESSURE ONTO THE STRUCTURAL CURVE:
    To take two easy examples:
    1) Schroth, left side lying on a rolled up towel; towel is placed below the lying patients LC apex;above this, the T concavity, is filled with air and forced towards the ground, air expired upwards to elongate; right leg is on stool and raises, abducted (to derotate the pelvis), work the weak lumbar side QL, psoas, gluteal and hip flexors; RAB performed (left back breathing with upper right chest breathing to derotate thorax, assistants hand guiding/forcing the movement and other hand stretching the tight lumbar concavity muscles and derotating the pelvis. We've been doing this for months; results are totally horizontal pelvis (was 10 - 15 degrees) and over 10 degrees off the compensatory curve. The thoracic curve has changed--it's shorter, a few degrees improved, etc.
    2) double side-shift is direct force on the structural curve: Tamzin can move her thoracic curve apex 1 - 2 cm correctively, while doing the same on the LC. We are about to incorporate this move into her every 5 minute auto-corrections for the next 3 - 4 weeks. Most of these will be performed in-brace, giving them an extra kick.
    Last edited by TAMZTOM; 12-16-2011, 07:17 PM.
    07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
    11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
    05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
    12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
    05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

    Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
      For an ADULT:

      1. non-exercise-dependent correction = affecting the structural curve
      2. non-exercise-dependent halting of progression = affecting the structural curve
      3. exercise-dependent correction = NOT affecting the structural curve
      4. exercise-dependent halting of progression = NOT affecting the structural curve
      1. Sharon, lost your logic there. Do you mean, e.g., brace force directly on structural curves? Many non-exercise aids can halt structural and compensatory curve progression.
      2. Non-exercise can remove the postural element in every curve, structural too.
      3. Exercise can affect structural component of structural curve.
      4. same a #3

      Hawes increased the distance between her spine and sternum and to the extent that is permanent (not exercise dependent), I think she permanently changed her structural curve.
      I didn't know that fact, must read the book.
      07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
      11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
      05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
      12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
      05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

      Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
        Who's the yoga woman, Sharon?
        Elise Browning
        http://www.yogaforscoliosis.com/

        After a week getting into wearing her SpineCor (she's now calling it "The Robe" from Scrooge..."Take my robe and come with me."
        That child has a totally, pull out all stops, "can do" attitude. I have only seen it previously in a few adults.

        By the way, by "breathing stuff" I was more referring to the stuff she did to help her breathing, maybe due to the small volume of her torso from the bone configuration that came along with her particular scoliosis. She was getting plenty of lung issues (and pain) and it seems she took up certain PT to address those things. I get the impression she was blind-sided by the reduction in her curve. You might try to contact her about this stuff. These are just my impressions from reading the two articles she co-authored on her case.

        Here's the first article:
        http://www.scoliosis.org/resources/s...on_spr2002.pdf

        Here's the second article:
        http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/cont...-7161-4-27.pdf
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by TAMZTOM View Post
          1. Sharon, lost your logic there. Do you mean, e.g., brace force directly on structural curves? Many non-exercise aids can halt structural and compensatory curve progression.
          2. Non-exercise can remove the postural element in every curve, structural too.
          3. Exercise can affect structural component of structural curve.
          4. same a #3
          Tom, I was talking about adults. Bracing is off the table except for pain for adults because they have no growth remaining (except perhaps intellectual growth). :-)

          Bracing, PT, etc. are on the table for kids because they have growth remaining. It's important to harness that.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by flerc View Post
            TOscoliosis, Alexander or Rolfing are usefull to increase the tone? I thought that only to decrease it.
            Hey flerc and others, as this is a Martha Hawes thread I put my reply to the above question in another thread: Rolfing vs. Scroth vs. Yoga vs. etc
            Seemed like a better fit.

            Maybe this link will get you there ... http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...-vs.-etc/page3
            Joshua
            Diagnosed with 42 degree thoracolumbar scoliosis in 1996
            1997 - 45 degrees
            2003 - 29 degrees
            2011 - 27 degrees
            http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...osis/front.jpg
            http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...sis/Lumbar.jpg
            http://i1249.photobucket.com/albums/...s/Thoracic.jpg

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              Bracing is off the table except for pain for adults because they have no growth remaining (except perhaps intellectual growth). :-)
              Okay, got all the above Sharon, cheers. Will digest. (Busy adapting exercise to The Robe.)

              Re. the above emphasis, irrational beliefs suggest the ongoing mental bracing trial on humankind is failing. :-)
              07/11: (10yrs) T40, L39, pelvic tilt, rotation T15 & L11
              11/11: Chiari 1 & syrinx, T35, L27, pelvis 0
              05/12: (11yrs) stopped brace, assessed T&L 25 - 30...>14lbs , >8 cm
              12/12: < 25 LC & TC, >14 cms, >20 lbs, neuro symptoms abated, but are there
              05/13: (12yrs) <25, >22cms height, puberty a year ago

              Avoid 'faith' in 'experts'. “In consequence of this error many persons pass for normal, and indeed for highly valuable members of society, who are incurably mad...”

              Comment


              • #97
                I'm mistaken or gypsum are also used in adults broken legs?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                  Tom, I was talking about adults. Bracing is off the table except for pain for adults because they have no growth remaining (except perhaps intellectual growth). :-)
                  Why are you so sure that this fact is an obvious reason to say what you are saying?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by flerc View Post
                    Why are you so sure that this fact is an obvious reason to say what you are saying?
                    It's what the biologists say. Their field.
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • They are saying that? Why? Scoliosis is not restricted to only one knowledge area.. they should to know that before doing such kind of categorical claims! At least they can justify it.. which is the justification??? It seems to be so obvious for you.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                        They are saying that? Why? Scoliosis is not restricted to only one knowledge area.. they should to know that before doing such kind of categorical claims! At least they can justify it.. which is the justification??? It seems to be so obvious for you.
                        Okay when do you think people stop growing physically and what is your evidence?
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • I was not laughing about people thinking that braces may not works in adults. I'm not sure about that. But you was laughing about the opposite . WHY???
                          Last edited by flerc; 12-17-2011, 11:42 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                            I was not laughing about people thinking that braces may not works in adults. I'm not sure about that. But you was laughing about the opposite . WHY???
                            None of this is funny. PT programs designed by lay folks who charge is especially not funny.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                              Tom, I was talking about adults. Bracing is off the table except for pain for adults because they have no growth remaining (except perhaps intellectual growth). :-)
                              It's not something like an ironic joke? Why are you so sure it's an absurd idea?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by flerc View Post
                                It's not something like an ironic joke? Why are you so sure it's an absurd idea?
                                What absurd idea?
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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