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Thread: Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    I'm hoping to get our paediatrician and (friend of a friend) neurosurgeon to scrutinise our x-rays and MRI scan sometime this week, hdugger. In the interim, I've analyzed them. I cannot detect any wedged or fused vertebra (from 2 sets of x rays, 1 MRI); I do see wedging of the intervertebral disks, but, as even the most wedged disks change shape (some even with parallel surfaces) between the different scans, at first (ignorant) look, nothing seems permanently malformed.
    Interestingly, I've calculated all the Cobb angles again (the medical DVDs with the scans have a comprehensive set of measuring tools, including one enabling Cobb angle measurement).
    X-rays (standing): T35 / L27
    MRI scan (supine): T27 / L24
    Does this difference seem fairly common, or does it suggest an extremely flexible spine (hyper flexibility). Does it suggest a muscular deficit (can't hold body weight when erect) or asymmetrically overly tight muscles distorting the spine?

    Any insight appreciated.
    Tom
    Supine radiographs are not measured for Cobb angles. How did you know which levels to use for your measurements of the standing X-rays?
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
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  2. #62
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    Responses

    Gayle, thanks a lot for the swift reply...my email notification was set to daily, only just realized people had kindly responded.

    LindaRacine: thanks. I understand that Cobb angles are usually taken from standing x-rays.

    Hdugger: fantastic information! Really pleased to hear that about the SEAS program. I was theorising after taking the measurements today, wondering what is likely or will be the case at the first fitting of her Spinecor (I know it varies hugely). You've probably saved me many hours if not days scouring the net to answer my questions. Cheers.

    Tom

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    Gayle, thanks a lot for the swift reply...my email notification was set to daily, only just realized people had kindly responded.

    LindaRacine: thanks. I understand that Cobb angles are usually taken from standing x-rays.

    Hdugger: fantastic information! Really pleased to hear that about the SEAS program. I was theorising after taking the measurements today, wondering what is likely or will be the case at the first fitting of her Spinecor (I know it varies hugely). You've probably saved me many hours if not days scouring the net to answer my questions. Cheers.

    Tom
    Tom... How did you choose the levels from which you took the measurements?
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you've signed up and are having trouble posting, please check your spam folder. An email was sent to the email address which you subscribed. You have to follow the instructions in that email. Done that and still having trouble posting? Contact Joe O'Brien at jpobrien@scoliosis.org.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Tom... How did you choose the levels from which you took the measurements?
    By "levels" do you mean vertebrae or MRI scan levels?
    To answer both:
    Vertebrae: used same vertebrae that 2 orthotists, 1 spine surgeon and 1 paediatrician used to measure the Cobbs (I'd say my measurement was even more accurate as I zoomed in waaayyyyy much further to avoid error...I also took them at the same zoom level as the above medics)
    MRI Scan: on one particular head to pelvic set of 8 slides/photos/films (whatever), I used the first usable MRI depth, the middle depth and deepest...no significant difference between all 3 reading as I was very, very attentive)

    PS: the spine surgeon, in front of me, measured the thoracic curve 4 times...each time, different measurement...he went from an initial 37, down to 33, then 35.something, then 34.93....an orthotist had a go later on another machine...he got 32...so did his orthotist colleague...
    Really makes one distrust anything one doesn't do oneself.

    In our case, Tamzin was scheduled for a spine fusion from the outset, so she'd have been operated on two months ago. No MRI had been taken; they were eager to play with the new bionic rods and accompanying remote control. I declined. Took me two months getting nowhere with the spine surgeon who saw "no clincial reason" to MRI. I secured the help of a wonderful paediatrician, got the MRI, and now we know about the Chiari and SM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    By "levels" do you mean vertebrae or MRI scan levels?
    To answer both:
    Vertebrae: used same vertebrae that 2 orthotists, 1 spine surgeon and 1 paediatrician used to measure the Cobbs (I'd say my measurement was even more accurate as I zoomed in waaayyyyy much further to avoid error...I also took them at the same zoom level as the above medics)
    MRI Scan: on one particular head to pelvic set of 8 slides/photos/films (whatever), I used the first usable MRI depth, the middle depth and deepest...no significant difference between all 3 reading as I was very, very attentive)

    PS: the spine surgeon, in front of me, measured the thoracic curve 4 times...each time, different measurement...he went from an initial 37, down to 33, then 35.something, then 34.93....an orthotist had a go later on another machine...he got 32...so did his orthotist colleague...
    Really makes one distrust anything one doesn't do oneself.

    In our case, Tamzin was scheduled for a spine fusion from the outset, so she'd have been operated on two months ago. No MRI had been taken; they were eager to play with the new bionic rods and accompanying remote control. I declined. Took me two months getting nowhere with the spine surgeon who saw "no clincial reason" to MRI. I secured the help of a wonderful paediatrician, got the MRI, and now we know about the Chiari and SM.
    Any spine surgeon that needs to measure a Cobb angle more than once or twice is probably not your best bet.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If you've signed up and are having trouble posting, please check your spam folder. An email was sent to the email address which you subscribed. You have to follow the instructions in that email. Done that and still having trouble posting? Contact Joe O'Brien at jpobrien@scoliosis.org.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post

    We have a saying in my other forum .....try to stay focused on the original topic =P

    Btw.


    Still doing schroth, it is amazing!!!! Started massages with trigger release therapy. Martha Hawes also received massages.

    Walking into our appointment I could visually see her hip was forward and shoulder dropped a bit. My fear was her curve was progressing. The massage therapist immediately addressed key muscle groups that were affecting her posture. Tightness, tight hip abductor muscles, and noticed her top two vertabeas were out of position, atlas and axis. After an hour of massage, she was standing better, shoulders appeared even and hips more aligned.

    She was also experiencing pain, after massage and chiropractor adjustments pain was gone.

    Curious how many have tried schroth and had good results?
    Last edited by Bigbluefrog; 11-15-2011 at 12:26 PM.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    Curious how many have tried schroth and had good results?
    Good results using Schroth so far. See details in new thread started today.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    If I remember correctly from my SEAS graphic:

    Curve while standing shows contribution from muscles+ligaments+bone
    Curve while lying shows contribution from ligaments+bone
    Curve while lying in brace shows contribution from bone

    The SEAS people hypothesize that you can reduce the standing curve to the lying curve with exercise.

    (SEAS is an exercise program suggested by the Italian Scientific Spine Institute)
    If it could be done in adults, incredible reductions could be achived, because some (at least young) adults has a really great flexibility. But I don't know how can it be done with exercises.. at least without something helping to hold the spine straight for a while.. surely an extrordinary knowledge is needed. Does SEAS explain how may be it possible?

  9. #69
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    ¿¿¿¿????

    What happened with the post of Joshua Lyons?? http://www.toscoliosis.com/about.php
    He was talking about Martha Hawes. Why it was deleted???

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    If it could be done in adults, incredible reductions could be achived, because some (at least young) adults has a really great flexibility. But I don't know how can it be done with exercises.. at least without something helping to hold the spine straight for a while.. surely an extrordinary knowledge is needed. Does SEAS explain how may be it possible?
    Unfortunately, it's NOT possible in adults (see my post #69 in this very thread). I was told this by a doctor practising SEAS in Milan, Italy. I can give you her name and email address should you be interested.

  11. #71
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    Yes, I’m interested to talk with him.. what you are saying is inconsistent with what huddger said if it also include adults. Anyway of course it would not prove that is impossible.. only that SEAS has not enough knowledge.
    Do you remember if the eastern method is Qui gong (Chi kung)?.. I hope that your answer would not be deleted..posts dissapears without notification.. certainly the same might occur with members in any moment..
    Thanks in advance.

  12. #72
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    what happened with the post of joshua lyons?? http://www.toscoliosis.com/about.php
    he was talking about martha hawes. Why it was deleted???
    which is the criteria in this forum to delete posts????

  13. #73
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    Success with scoliosis

    Hello Flerc and everyone,
    My last post was removed because I gave a link to my website on it. One of the forum moderators explained that I shouldn't put up links to my website because it is a commercial site - I work with people with scoliosis. My apologies to all of you. I will make sure not to do that in future.

    I didn't save my post about Martha Hawes, so here it is possibly in slightly different form with a couple of other thoughts as well:

    I was in contact with Martha Hawes several years ago. I bought ten copies of her book "Scoliosis and the Human Spine." One copy for myself and nine to give out to people. She inspired me to keep working on myself at a time when there wasn't much information available about non-surgical treatment of scoliosis.

    I was first diagnosed with a 42 degree thoracic curve in 1996. In 2004 I was re-measured with a 29 degree curve. So I have been studying anatomy, movement approaches and treatment techniques for over 15 years now. In November my fiancée took photographs of me and we compared them to photographs from 2006. It looks like my body is continuing to straighten. The changes are amazing. In 2013 I'm going to have another set of X-rays taken - a 40th birthday gift to myself. I'm expecting them to confirm that my spine continues to straighten.

    There is so much in Martha Hawes' book that I found ground-breaking at the time and still feels relevant. I was so impressed when I read her well-researched critique of the view that exercise had been proven to be ineffective in treating scoliosis. This had felt intuitively wrong to me. I could understand that exercise treatments had not been effective in the past, but it didn't seem right that all future exercise treatments were also dismissed. Also, there are so many different forms of exercise that showing that one form is ineffective, shouldn't lead us to assume that other forms will be equally unsuccessful. In her book, Martha showed the fallacy behind claims that exercise treatment can't work, and this was both a big relief and a big inspiration to me.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    which is the criteria in this forum to delete posts????
    My guess would be that he refers to himself as "a scoliosis specialist" but didn't provide any credentials whatsoever. Just b/c we have personal experiences with scoliosis doesn't mean we are "specialists". If that's the case, maybe we're all specialists?

    We can be confidently upright; we can move with economy and skill; and we can have the confidence that comes from knowing that, as long as we diligently apply the skills we have learned, we will be free from the worries of a degenerating spine or the risks of surgery.
    ^^ No one can claim that.

    Given it was his first post here, it just comes across as another cure seller. If he'd just come on to the forum and talk about his experiences then that's fine but as is, he posts his site that he started this month and refers to himself as a specialist which is misleading. Just my opinion.

    Edit: I see the OP has now commented on why his post was deleted.
    Last edited by Elisa; 12-15-2011 at 09:32 AM.
    Son 14 y/o diagnosed January 20th. 2011 with 110* Curve
    Halo Traction & 1st. surgery on March 22nd. 2011
    Spinal Fusion on April 19th. 2011

    Dr. Krajbich @ Shriners Childrens Hospital, Portland Oregon



    http://tinyurl.com/Elias-Before
    http://tinyurl.com/Elias-After

  15. #75
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    I didn't say that he was a fraud, rather that he claims to be a "scoliosis specialist" when in actual fact he is really only giving his own personal experience, like we all do here. And no, this forum does not allow links to sites that are selling goods or services, it is a forum for discussing scoliosis. If it did allow links to commercial sites, one can only imagine how many people would join up here for the sole purpose of selling their wares. We'd have thousands of new members every week! I personally like that rule and it keeps the forum free from spam.
    Son 14 y/o diagnosed January 20th. 2011 with 110* Curve
    Halo Traction & 1st. surgery on March 22nd. 2011
    Spinal Fusion on April 19th. 2011

    Dr. Krajbich @ Shriners Childrens Hospital, Portland Oregon



    http://tinyurl.com/Elias-Before
    http://tinyurl.com/Elias-After

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