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Thread: Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

  1. #46
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    Both, Martha Hawes and SEAS has some good results in the reduction of curves in adults..and curves were not so very little. I believe that some methods may be best after growth that during it, even it seems to be something impossible..

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    There is a conservative physical therapy based treatment in Italy, SEAS. Have you heard of it? Those guys are medical doctors so they aren't loons but it seems they only have one patient so far out of hundreds who has responded. And her curve reduction is exercise-dependent... she has had to do extreme amounts of exercise to date and until she dies.

    http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/3/1/20
    Yes Pooka, I heard about Isico, I remember contacting them a few years ago, but I wasn't convinced can't remember why. I'll contact them again, thanks for that link.


    Yes? Do you believe Iím commercializing some of those methods? Which of them? For every quote you may do of some of those methods I was talking about, I may quote 10 more of another method, mainly in other forums. Do you believe that all the alternative professionals are giving me a pay? Even I may quote a large and really hard discussion criticizing (from a particular point of view) all alternative methods.
    Certainly, I also may think that you are receiving a pay for say what you are saying.
    Flerc, I never meant that was your case, I'm sure you can't possibly have any interest, no more than we all have, that's to say finding a solution to our problems..
    I'll read carefully everything you guys have posted and have discussed in other threads, you all seem to have a deep understanding of the matter.
    Thanks

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Yes Pooka, I heard about Isico, I remember contacting them a few years ago, but I wasn't convinced can't remember why. I'll contact them again, thanks for that link.
    Well reading that one paper, they are not claiming to correct the structural part of any curve, just any postural component. Because only one patient, out of hundreds perhaps, had a dramatic result, it is very likely that something about her, rather than the PT, was the reason. I am guessing she is very limber or a contortionist or had a very flexible curve or something.

    The main issue even if it worked that well for everyone is the constant and large amount of exercise. What happens if you get sick and can't exercise? Do you lose everything you gained? That would slay me.

    But the bottom line problem is the same as the bottom line problem for Scrhoth in Germany... if it worked then everyone in Italy at least (or Germany in the case of Schroth) and then around the world would be using it and there would be no fusion surgeries. But we don't see that result. Schroth is still fringe in Germany and fusions go on as ever. I am sure the same is true for Italy even though SEAS has been around for several years though not as many as Schroth (90+ years).

    Good luck.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    Flerc, I never meant that was your case, I'm sure you can't possibly have any interest, no more than we all have, that's to say finding a solution to our problems..
    Alistair, is good to read what you are saying now..itís also really good to talk with someone from Italy. I really want to visit it someday, and not only to talk with the SEAS team.. itís the main country of my ancestors!.

    See you.

  5. #50
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    How lucky you are! I never could get the birth certificate of my great grandfather, so it's impossible for us..

  6. #51
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    Italy is overrated! ^_^

    I'm writing an email to Isico as we speak explaining my condition and asking them to be as frank as possible on what they could do for me. I'll probably go for a first visit in any case as they're quite close to where I live, but I want to be open from the outset, I don't take lightly these talks about reverting/redressing curves, this needs investigating... I'll let you know. Have a lovely weekend you all.
    Last edited by Alistair; 10-09-2011 at 02:45 PM.

  7. #52
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    Improving scoliosis with exercise, take with a pinch of salt!

    Okay, here I am again, this time with hopefully a more meaningful update.

    I went to ISICO for a first visit, I found a very competent Doctor who didnít mind my direct questioning, we spoke openly about their method (which, together with the Schrothís and another one used in Eastern countries which I donít recall the name, is one the three recognized methods to be effective in their own way).
    It turns out, as Iíve always sustained, that correcting a spine curvature is pure BS, what they can do through specific exercises (SEAS) is give you a better posture and better muscles, this, in the case of patients who have suffered sudden deteriorations in their conditions, can help the spine getting back or around to pre-deterioration, you will most likely have a better posture and better flexibility, that is it, but forget reverting curves unless you're adolescent and wearing a brace or have an operation.

    So, for me, unfortunately, the case is now closed, thereís no way a spine can be corrected and Iíll do whatever I can to contrast those who say otherwise, itís just a matter of honesty and openness, the Internet is full of rubbish about ďnewĒ solutions, this just gives false hopes, when I read about people correcting a spine and getting taller it shoud make me laugh, but it doesn't, it just makes me angry and sad.

    I'm 37, I have a 29į curvature and a nasty rib hump, I exercise daily (light weights, cardio, pilates, swimming) and nothing was prescribed to me by ISICO, except to continue exercising as I'm doing now as my back muscles are fine, have a visit every 3/4 years hoping there's no deterioration. Be very aware of what you read, even on this very forum, there's nothing worse as giving false hopes to patients who already have a lot on their minds.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    It turns out, as Iíve always sustained, that correcting a spine curvature is pure BS, what they can do through specific exercises (SEAS) is give you a better posture and better muscles, this, in the case of patients who have suffered sudden deteriorations in their conditions, can help the spine getting back or around to pre-deterioration, you will most likely have a better posture and better flexibility, that is it, but forget reverting curves unless you're adolescent and wearing a brace or have an operation.
    SEAS admits this in their publications. I don't know if Schroth does. Chiro doesn't to my knowledge.

    Be very aware of what you read, even on this very forum, there's nothing worse as giving false hopes to patients who already have a lot on their minds.
    Good advise.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alistair View Post
    So, for me, unfortunately, the case is now closed, thereís no way a spine can be corrected and Iíll do whatever I can to contrast those who say otherwise, itís just a matter of honesty and openness, the Internet is full of rubbish about ďnewĒ solutions, this just gives false hopes, when I read about people correcting a spine and getting taller it shoud make me laugh, but it doesn't, it just makes me angry and sad.

    I'm 37, I have a 29į curvature and a nasty rib hump, I exercise daily (light weights, cardio, pilates, swimming) and nothing was prescribed to me by ISICO, except to continue exercising as I'm doing now as my back muscles are fine, have a visit every 3/4 years hoping there's no deterioration. Be very aware of what you read, even on this very forum, there's nothing worse as giving false hopes to patients who already have a lot on their minds.
    It feels like it's the rare patient who is able to get past the BS and form a common sense opinion. Congratulations and welcome to the club.
    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Dilbert
    I'm sarcastic... what's your super power? --Unknown
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    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
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  10. #55
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    Curve improvement in 10 yr old doing Schroth (adapted)

    Hi
    I'm just reading through this thread now, but am answering an early post now.

    07/07/11: 10 yr old daughter diagnosed T44, L42
    Did 3 wks Schroth (physiotherapist was awful, peddles unauthorised brace, dangerous)...we read and applied Schroth ourselves straight from the book since.
    We adapted the Schroth, particularly the RAB and added several more symmetrical exercises to balance muscle groups.
    13/10/11: improvements, T34, L27
    Looking to start wearing a Spinecor brace within 3 - 4 weeks.

    We've really just started and believe we can improve the curves significantly without a brace, even more in the Spinecor. Proprioception has been a particular focus; my daughter's posture is now excellent, head aligned, pelvic perfectly horizontal (it was tilted 20 degrees in July), prominent posterior ribs were causing winged scapula which is completely gone now...

    One week ago, after the 'good news' on improvements, we got the results of an MRI. Chiari 1 malformation and Syringomelyia (brain hernia and fluid on spine). What a week. Once again, we've refused surgery after much research.

    We have many areas to explore re. exercising, stretching, bracing, but feel we have a solid framework on which to expand. We have x-rays and MRI scans for all stages to date. We would eagerly participate on discussion with others seriously interested in ERADICATING scoliosis...we exercise to completely correct rather than hope for halting progression on achieve small curve reductions (for us, to do otherwise would be to accept defeat before we start).

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    So, what we know is that exercise *can* work (and that's also been shown with the SEAS studies), but there is not yet a clear protocol that you could train physical therapists to.
    I believe physios can be trained to apply the Spinecor physiotherapy program.

  12. #57
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    Curve improvement in 10 yr old doing Schroth (adapted)

    Many thanks PMhdugger for your informative reply. We're at a very early stage regarding the Chiari and Syringolemyia (SM). Found out about this 7 days ago and, after much input medical friends and our own research, feel that, for our daughter, surgery is not a viable alternative (i.e., she'd be having multiple operations a year for 6 - 8 years ON TOP of spine surgery). Simply isn't an alternative for us.

    We have a brain scan scheduled tomorrow then a consultation with a neurosurgeon and a neurologist. I'll listen, but have already decided that we'll monitor SM and Chiari in 3 months and closely monitor any symptoms while we continue to correct her scoliosis. SM can dissipate or be assimilated by the body; we don't know yet if the fluid is in the spinal canal or in a syrinx. I've even read that spontaneous rupture can ease the problem. With the Chiari (depending on how much it has descended, there's a fighting chance that with growth, especially between 10 - 12, the differential ratio of brain growth to skull growth can see the Chiari ascend). We're also researching how scoliosis can reduce flow and thereby cause or exacerbate the blockage in the Chiari. Even assuming that the Chiari was the cause of the SM and the scoliosis (which hit her from nowhere between Jan and June), reverse engineering from the symptom to cause is logical (i.e., straightening curves increases the flow by stopping the reduction in flow, alleviates the Chiari and, with my daughter youth, see the Chiari not progress or even ascend).

    Our daughter has always trained; champion cross country runner and was really getting into track with our 13 yr old daughter (who is the National Champion at 1500). She now does 2 - 3 hours physio at home with my wife and I (my other daughter and my son join in). 8.5 degrees thoracic correction and 14.5 lumbar correction, completely corrected pelvis, completely corrected hyper-lordosis (that was actually stopping her eating) and hugely improved posture. She's gained 7 lbs of muscle in 12 weeks (this after losing weight while constantly ill for six months). Not a day of illness for almost 4 months, looks like a gymnast, most competitive person I've ever met in my life.

    In addition to exercise and healthy eating, she uses a dictaphone to record Scroth style corrections every 15 minutes at school. Her conscious mind is almost not required now--on auto-pilot, her subconscious alerts her to uncorrected ribs and posture, etc. It only takes 90 seconds to perform her corrections; she then feels "topped up" to hold them for 15:00 while studying.

    Re. Schroth, we modified the exercises a lot. With RAB, we now avoid "left and up" as this deviates the lumbar curve. The right rib cage and lung are (from MRI scans) more compromised than her left lung, which was minimal 3 months ago. With a solidly held corrected posture, for example, she can breathe high into both lungs, then right angle this down into the lower distorted 11th and 12th on each side (or up when elongating and tensing/muscle mantle. After weeks of aymmetrical work to activate dormant left thorac muscle groups and lower right lumbar groups, we've seen tremendous erector spinae, quadratus lumborum, psoas, latissiumus dorso, trapezious and rhomboid improvements. Many exercises for these groups we now do symmetrically as the opposite side formerly overstretched muscles have relaxed and are capable of equal function as those newly enervated.

    Her core is like that of a gymnast. Hamstring flexibility is low. Working on that.

    Striking me tonight was this difference: holding a straight pole across her upper back, arms outstretched on the pole, she squats while bending forward (legs and lumbar exercise); there is ZERO rotation doing this, but great muscular exercise. However, when all scoliotic kids do the Adams forward bend test, the rotation is maximised. I will ponder on this for many days for deeper insight into the muscle groups for the distortion in Adams and the lack it when using a pole. Identifying what's responsible will I feel enable me to ascertain exactly what muscles are causing the rotation.
    Last edited by TAMZTOM; 11-10-2011 at 07:33 PM.

  13. #58
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    [QUOTE=hdugger;128627]Does she have any problems in the vertebrae themselves? My son (and many kids with syrinx/congenital scoliosis) have oddly formed or fused vertebrae which make it harder to control the curve. Even with surgery, my son is unlikely to get a really good correction because some of his vertebrae are malformed and fused.

    I don't know, Hdugger. The lack of treatment and discussion has been horrendous recently--we're in the UK where they "don't do alternative treatments", know little about bracing, etc. It has been quite an ordeal, but we're beginning to get input now. I will certainly inquire about this (i.e., demand that someone with knowledge go over the x-rays and scans with me). Thanks.

    That said, exercise and massage have been very effective in improving his posture and making him feel better.

    Best of luck to your daughter![/QUOTE]


    We were actually refused a massage by an assigned physiotherapist (senior rotational) who opined that we don't do relaxing massages...I am on the trail of those who can do deep massage to enervate important deep muscles (e.g., psoas on lumbar concavity. I'm pleased that you son found these therapeutic and increased his health.

  14. #59
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    Supine vs Standing

    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Does she have any problems in the vertebrae themselves? My son (and many kids with syrinx/congenital scoliosis) have oddly formed or fused vertebrae which make it harder to control the curve. Even with surgery, my son is unlikely to get a really good correction because some of his vertebrae are malformed and fused
    I'm hoping to get our paediatrician and (friend of a friend) neurosurgeon to scrutinise our x-rays and MRI scan sometime this week, hdugger. In the interim, I've analyzed them. I cannot detect any wedged or fused vertebra (from 2 sets of x rays, 1 MRI); I do see wedging of the intervertebral disks, but, as even the most wedged disks change shape (some even with parallel surfaces) between the different scans, at first (ignorant) look, nothing seems permanently malformed.
    Interestingly, I've calculated all the Cobb angles again (the medical DVDs with the scans have a comprehensive set of measuring tools, including one enabling Cobb angle measurement).
    X-rays (standing): T35 / L27
    MRI scan (supine): T27 / L24
    Does this difference seem fairly common, or does it suggest an extremely flexible spine (hyper flexibility). Does it suggest a muscular deficit (can't hold body weight when erect) or asymmetrically overly tight muscles distorting the spine?

    Any insight appreciated.
    Tom

  15. #60
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    Tom,

    the measurement changes when supine you mention are extremely common--they are attributed to the forces of gravity, so please, no worries on that front for your daughter!



    Quote Originally Posted by TAMZTOM View Post
    I've calculated all the Cobb angles again (the medical DVDs with the scans have a comprehensive set of measuring tools, including one enabling Cobb angle measurement).
    X-rays (standing): T35 / L27
    MRI scan (supine): T27 / L24
    Does this difference seem fairly common, or does it suggest an extremely flexible spine (hyper flexibility). Does it suggest a muscular deficit (can't hold body weight when erect) or asymmetrically overly tight muscles distorting the spine?

    Any insight appreciated.
    Tom
    Gayle, age 47
    Boston brace as a teen for AIS
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation, TLIF at L4/5.
    Feb 2012 major A/P revision for broken rods


    mom of Leah, 12 y/o, diagnosed Jan '08 with 26* thoracic JIS (age 6)
    4/08 26 degrees, brace 16 hrs/day
    9/08 17 deg. OOB - brace discontinued
    9/09 30 deg, resuming brace
    5/10 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    5/14 stable 4 yrs post-op, 14* T

    also mom of Torrey, 9 y/o son, 12* T, decreasing spontaneously (from 19*)

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