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  • #31
    Originally posted by mamamax View Post
    You're welcome .... and yes, the documented addition to the literature/story of Martha Hawes gives me a great deal of encouragement for the future. She continues to publish every 4 years ... and word on the street is: There are more Martha's out there. Personally, I've made an appointment with an osteopath, we will discuss her. There is another forum member here who is now working with Martha's osteopath. Hope to hear from her soon!
    I have never worked with an osteopath. How is that going for you?

    It is good to know that there are people with success and Yes I believe testimonies are one way to see results. SCientific results are measured and yes Schroth does gather scientific results, AIR flow capacity is measured, lung function increased, curves and cob angles are measured. IF I could show my dd X-rays showing the improvement..it would still not impress some.
    Where are the research papers discrediting the success of schroth therapy!!!

    Actually I have never heard of a negative testimony from a Schroth participant...mmm interesting....ok Surgery gals...have you ever tried schroth? Not clear! SCHROTH so it would be intriguing just the same to hear their side as well.
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post



      Why is she the lone person to do this? She was not trying to reduce her curve. She was trying to stop getting chest infections and embarked on anything and everything to expand her chest cavity. She was blind-sided by the curve decrease.

      Think of all the adults (and kids) who tried to decrease their curves and failed. You are only counting the EXQUISITELY RARE(!) hits and ignoring the ocean of misses. Hawes has an asymmetrical chest cavity. That is not the case or main problem in many scoliosis cases. It makes no sense that her methods would even hope to work on someone with a Lumbar curve let's say.

      .

      Who are the misses? oceans of misses? Did you have a negative experience with Schroth? Actually I admire your passion for making sure the treatment is real and not a waste of money, very kind of you to look out for those seeking for answers.

      IT would be good to hear those misses post here.

      Most Scoliosis patients have asymmetrical lung or chest concavity, including my daughter. I also have son with Pectus execuvtum....Deformity of the chest wall. It is quite common in young men. HE also has scoliosis...not so rare.

      Do you have research papers showing that schroth does not work? I would like to read them. I can't seem to find any data on exercise not being beneficial for scoliosis. Another scientific paper I am looking for is long term expectations on pt who had surgery...how are they doing?

      Anyway we are in alternative therapies.....and my dd get X-rays in Dec. It will be interesting, hopefully we have stabilized.
      age 15
      Daughter diagnosed at age 13
      T20 l23 10-09
      T27 L27 1/2010

      T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
      T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
      T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

      Type 1 diabetes- pumping
      Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
      Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
        Who are the misses? oceans of misses?
        All the people who still had surgery despite doing Schroth. Weiss doesn't have the Nobel so we know these people are the vast majority, if not everyone, who has tried Schroth.

        Did you have a negative experience with Schroth? Actually I admire your passion for making sure the treatment is real and not a waste of money, very kind of you to look out for those seeking for answers.
        No but Weiss tried it for over 10 years and with 30,000 patients and as of 2009 admitted that the efficacy of PT as a treatment to avoid surgery was still an open question.

        IT would be good to hear those misses post here.
        There are people on this forum who say they tried Schroth and still needed surgery. Hopefully they will chime in but I doubt these are reading this thread on pubs for Schroth of all things.

        Most Scoliosis patients have asymmetrical lung or chest concavity, including my daughter.
        Where did you get this idea? Neither of my daughters has an asymmetric chest cavity and they had fairly large T curves.

        I also have son with Pectus excavatum....Deformity of the chest wall. It is quite common in young men. He also has scoliosis...not so rare.
        No actually PE is quite rare and is sometimes associated with Marfans. The fact that your son has BOTH PE and scoliosis is very consistent with Marfans and I strongly suggest you get that evaluated.

        Further, the fact that you have two children with scoliosis and one has PE is consistent with familial Marfans which accounts for ~75% of the cases. If my daughters have Marfans, they will be in the 25% of people who have a spontaneous mutation.

        Do you have research papers showing that schroth does not work?
        That's not how it works. There is so much nonsense out there on the wing that nobody has time to disprove it all. The purveyors have to pony up evidence and third parties have to verify it. That's how it works.

        It's not looking good for Schroth with OVER 30,000 patients and still no evidence.

        I can't seem to find any data on exercise not being beneficial for scoliosis.
        There's a reason for that.

        Another scientific paper I am looking for is long term expectations on pt who had surgery...how are they doing?
        Hopefully well. But it's not like the great run of kids have any choice whether or not to have surgery so it's practically a moot point. The future is very hopeful based on what is known though.

        Anyway we are in alternative therapies.....and my dd get X-rays in Dec. It will be interesting, hopefully we have stabilized.
        I certainly wish you luck and hope your daughter stays stable. It is a crime that she has both Type I diabetes and scoliosis. It's a crime any kid has either of those or any other condition. If I think about those kinds of situations too long I just get mad although there is no point.
        Last edited by Pooka1; 11-16-2010, 08:29 PM. Reason: damn spelling...
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #34
          just to be clear...

          I wrote...

          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
          But it's not like the great run of kids have any choice whether or not to have surgery so it's practically a moot point.
          I mean the great run of kids in surgery territory have little choice. A very hopeful but unknown future beats the hell out of the known present.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bigbluefrog View Post


            Where are the research papers discrediting the success of schroth therapy!!!
            Excellent!

            From what I see of the literature - if Schroth did not provide benefit - we would be reading about that in the literature, which is a body of debate, in and of itself.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by mamamax View Post
              Excellent!

              From what I see of the literature - if Schroth did not provide benefit - we would be reading about that in the literature, which is a body of debate, in and of itself.

              Look, there is TOO MUCH to refute when considering the universe of these types of claims. I wanted to post "The Periodic Table of Irrational Nonsense" but because it would likely offend those of more delicate sensibilities, I will refrain. But you can look it up and see for yourself that there are 118 separate pieces of this stuff. And they are discovering more all the time!

              #59 - Symbol Cp is chiropractic

              #6 - Symbol A is Astrology

              #33 - Symbol Av is Antivaccination

              #88 - Symbol By is Bunyips (What the heck are Bunyips anyway???)

              #98 - Symbol Ag - Angel therapy

              And so on. Who has the time to deal with 118 of these things and counting!
              Last edited by Pooka1; 11-16-2010, 09:36 PM. Reason: spelling!!!!
              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

              No island of sanity.

              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
              Answer: Medicine


              "We are all African."

              Comment


              • #37
                That's funny Pooka1 - I do admire your sense of humor.

                There is however, still nothing negative in the literature regarding Schroth. There is a ton of literature however, which indicates its benefit. Now, those who author the literature - love to debate, endlessly. So far no one (in the literature) is pointing out any negative aspects to Schroth or SEAS (for hdugger).

                Comment


                • #38
                  lol...gals.

                  great just great, now pooka has me looking up marfans
                  age 15
                  Daughter diagnosed at age 13
                  T20 l23 10-09
                  T27 L27 1/2010

                  T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
                  T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
                  T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

                  Type 1 diabetes- pumping
                  Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
                  Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    pooka!!!!! shame on you!!!! my kid does not have that...where do u get this stuff from....

                    and it is mild its very common...Pectus excavatum occurs in an estimated 1 in 150-1000 births, with male predominance (male-to-female ratio of 3:1). Occurrences of the condition in family members have been reported in 35% to 45% of cases. anyway his is mild!

                    Oh yes I do agree it is wrong to have two chronic illness...but honestly she is doing great with both, she has embraced life not her afflictions.

                    I still think Schroth rocks!
                    age 15
                    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
                    T20 l23 10-09
                    T27 L27 1/2010

                    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
                    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
                    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

                    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
                    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
                    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                      That's funny Pooka1 - I do admire your sense of humor.

                      There is however, still nothing negative in the literature regarding Schroth. There is a ton of literature however, which indicates its benefit. Now, those who author the literature - love to debate, endlessly. So far no one (in the literature) is pointing out any negative aspects to Schroth or SEAS (for hdugger).
                      You are shifting the goalposts. PT obviously has benefits. The question on the table is has it let anyone avoid surgery for life. That is far from proven. If it was proven and applicable to all, then there would be no surgery. If it was proven for a certain cohort then we may or may not know that depending on the size of the cohort.

                      If Schroth worked to lower the need for surgery then Weiss would have published that and everyone would be doing Schroth, even in their sleep. I'd like to see Weiss publishing the percentage of people in various curve and Risser categories who go on to surgery after using Schroth. I will bet you is it indistinguishable from the natural history or he would have published it in Spine (and the front page of hte NTY Times) by now. But we don't obtain that result.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
                        pooka!!!!! shame on you!!!! my kid does not have that...where do u get this stuff from....

                        and it is mild its very common...Pectus excavatum occurs in an estimated 1 in 150-1000 births, with male predominance (male-to-female ratio of 3:1). Occurrences of the condition in family members have been reported in 35% to 45% of cases. anyway his is mild!

                        Oh yes I do agree it is wrong to have two chronic illness...but honestly she is doing great with both, she has embraced life not her afflictions.

                        I still think Schroth rocks!
                        Okay. I am telling you both my daughters had moderate cases of PE as toddlers that resolved completely as adolescents. And they have scoliosis. And they are being monitored for emergent Marfans.

                        Look at the list of skeletal features of Marfans.

                        Ask a medical geneticist about the incidence in the population of PE TOGETHER with scoliosis. She will mention Marfans per what I know about that.
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Pooka1 - I have to say that you probably know more about Marfans than anyone else on this board (and probably more than my general practitioner). I was actually shocked to learn that one need not be overly tall to have it - short folks can get it too. I learned that many years ago when my youngest sister at the time (5'5") had a host of medical problems and Marfans was suspect (per doctors at Duke University) as well.

                          I'm glad your kids are doing well and "outgrew" the pectus thing - a small miracle. As for chest wall deformity, I think it is pretty well established that this goes along with scoliosis - though it may not be to any great degree (generally speaking), with small curves and young people; and getting progressively worse with curvature progression and age. I'm finding it very curious that improvement in chest wall be it by Schroth, SEAS, CLEAR, or any other PT-like thing, seems to also have the added bonus of reduction in curvature (with rare exception). Interesting.
                          Last edited by mamamax; 11-17-2010, 05:53 PM. Reason: typo

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                            You are shifting the goalposts. PT obviously has benefits. The question on the table is has it let anyone avoid surgery for life. That is far from proven. If it was proven and applicable to all, then there would be no surgery. If it was proven for a certain cohort then we may or may not know that depending on the size of the cohort.
                            Well maybe the goalposts need a little shifing :-) The question: does Schroth (or any other PT/Rehabilitation) avoid surgery for life? Answering this is no small feat - this would require patient tracking throughout a lifetime and this does not exist (either non surgically or surgically). case in point - I had cervical fusion when I was 20. My surgeon tracked me for five years and that was it. There is no body of literature tracking those like myself who have had this procedure done throughout a lifetime and to my knowledge, lifetime medical tracking simply does not exist.

                            I still think there is a case to be made for lack of negative literature regarding Schroth. Many have been trained in this therapy - including physical therapists and none of them are speaking out against it. In today's world, with the Internet, if there were negative things to be said about this therapy - I would certainly think someone would be doing that. We don't see it do we? Nor do we see competitors - such as the SEAS folks, publishing material that would prove their methods superior by comparison, as would be expected in the literature.

                            If Schroth worked to lower the need for surgery then Weiss would have published that and everyone would be doing Schroth, even in their sleep. I'd like to see Weiss publishing the percentage of people in various curve and Risser categories who go on to surgery after using Schroth. I will bet you is it indistinguishable from the natural history or he would have published it in Spine (and the front page of hte NTY Times) by now. But we don't obtain that result.
                            Actually, if you study the Schroth literature, Weiss does show that Schroth appears to reduce the need for surgery in many cases. What's missing is the lifetime thing - and that is missing across the board - for everything in the medical literature.

                            The biggest question in my mind, is how do we determine which cases will respond to what without a lot of trial and error. This question always brings me back to Martha Hawes and her unexpected results following chest wall improvement. In my world that means *maybe* the chest wall thing is a key to unlocking those answers. Possibly those who can improve their chest wall can avoid surgery, the trade off being a life time of attention; and those who cannot, may require surgical intervention. Just a guess/pondering.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
                              I have never worked with an osteopath. How is that going for you?
                              I once actually used an osteopath as my primary care physician - seems like 100 years ago - when I was in my 20's :-) He did not treat me in any way for my scoliosis as I was asymptomatic at the time.

                              Martha enlisted the aid of an osteopath in her journey and I decided to took into this (got a referral from my spine doctor, more specifically will be seeing his own osteopath). So I'll have to let you know. Also looking into some PT on the 19th and will probably follow up with the osteopath a week or so after that.

                              Here's a decent article on what is an osteopath: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy

                              Thanks for your comments in this thread, they have been very encouraging to me & at my age I'll take all the encouragement I can get!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                                Actually, if you study the Schroth literature, Weiss does show that Schroth appears to reduce the need for surgery in many cases.
                                If that is based on just reducing the average curve size for a group of people and then saying it is below the surgical threshold then I don't think it addresses the surgery avoidance issue. Here's why.

                                Recall the recent publication from Katz et al. claiming a dose-response curve for hours of brace wear. While everyone is looking at that highlighted result, what is clearly missed is what is arguably the bottom line... does wearing a brace reduce the need for surgery? Because the percentage of patients in the Katz study who went on to need surgery even in the short term was similar to that of other bracing studies and natural history studies, what is apparently going on is that the average size of curves that would not go on to surgery ANYWAY is being reduced. The bracing had no apparent effect on keeping kids off the surgery table.

                                WRT kids, I suggest people brace and(or) do PT for the express purpose of avoiding surgery due to progression. Now it may be the case that reducing curves that would not have gone on to surgery in the short term anyway actually avoids surgery in the long term for those curves, who knows. That would be hard to show. But what has been shown (though not highlighted) is that neither bracing nor PT lowers the need for surgery even in the short term in a large cohort. And if that is true for the strongest study to date (Katz arguably) then it is true for all the others.

                                Similar to Bill Mahre's "New Rules," I am calling for journals to have a rule about authors publishing this one statistic (surger avoidance) along with anything else they want to publish because that is the actual bottom line for kids and parents.

                                In adults, it seems that PT is effective at keeping some folks of the surgery table for pain. So that's a completely different matter.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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