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Where are all the published documents on Schroth?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by hdugger
    I'm not sure this holds up for adult scoliosis. Because significant adult curves *never* reduce spontaneously, a single proven testimonial of an adult with a moderate or larger curve (over 30 degrees) which reduces by at least 10 degrees is a very significant finding.

    That is, the invariable normal progression of the disease in adults acts as the control group against which you can compare the extraordinary event of a curve reduction.
    But reducing a curve temporarily even by 10* is not so amazing, is it? You can get 10* just standing differently or from morning till night in some folks.

    And then we have the fact that some of these claims come from folks OTHER THAN board-certified orthopedic surgeons so skepticism is required for many claims.

    The question is... how many adults have reduced their curves permanently with or without continued PT. You can't show that in principle even.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #17
      I've decided to take the advice given in Linda's signature

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by hdugger
        I don't believe we're idiots, but you are certainly free to disagree.
        I am very sure she means me and not you.

        People with an MPH are by definition NOT idiots.
        Last edited by Pooka1; 11-12-2010, 06:54 PM.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by hdugger
          I mean whatever method is commonly used in experiments to measure an increase or reduction in curves. I don't know the protocol, but I assume there is one. What is Betz using to show his reductions, for example. Or, what do surgeons normally use to decide that a curve is progressing?
          Not sure what these surgeons do but I can only assume they measure the radiographs themselves and look for any change greater than 6*. If someone else measured it, then they probably look for a change greater than 10*. That's my guess. All this presupposes the patient is standing exactly normal to the (collimated) beam.

          Anyway, whatever those people are using for studies and decisions is good enough in this case. We can't give all of these other xrays a pass and suggest that the patients in exercise studies are just standing funny.
          I think the studies conducted by non-surgeons do not necessarily have rad staff who are necessarily "up" on the importance of standing correctly or the same from radiograph to radiograph. I think one thing in SEAS's favor in that one report at least was they had some blinded readers, no? I think that was them. If so it is a big plus in their favor of any results they found.

          Sorry, I can't quite parse that sentence. I have no complaint with continued exercise, so I don't need to show permanent reduction without exercise.
          Spoken like someone who doesn't have to do the aforementioned PT for the rest of their life. Or sweat not being able to do PT due to sickness, boredom, turpitude, etc. etc.

          For long-term reduction with exercise, I ended up with 6 data points, I think, on our last go-round.
          Last we knew. And that is six out of how many hundreds/thousands? If you increase the odds enough then spontaneous reduction in adults starts looking palatable.
          Last edited by Pooka1; 11-12-2010, 06:59 PM.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by hdugger
            I don't believe we're idiots, but you are certainly free to disagree.
            sorry hdugger - I was not addressing you. This was addressed to Pooka1. With humor of course!

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by hdugger
              Well, then I'm just giving them a pass because they're fellow Italians
              Roger that! Like the Italians :-)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by hdugger
                I don't think you're an idiot either. In fact, I've always been puzzled by Linda's tagline - I'd be hard-pressed to identify any idiots on this forum.
                I have my guesses.

                Actually, I do. I got run over by a car when I was very little, and have a permanent structural (I think) imbalance somewhere in my pelvic structure which throws off the musculature in my lower back and legs. As long as I'm fit and active, I'm totally fine. But if I don't do regular exercises and stretches, I get repeated severe muscle injuries which pretty much lay me up. It's not scoliosis by any means, but I do have some sense of what the "permanent PT" side of the equation looks like.
                Okay point taken. But what if you could trade in your mandatory PT to be able to function for an operation that would permanently relieve you from having to exercise for the rest of your life. An operation where you wouldn't ever again be reliant on PT to feel good. Would you opt for that? Wouldn't most people? I suggest so.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by hdugger
                  I don't think you're an idiot either. In fact, I've always been puzzled by Linda's tagline - I'd be hard-pressed to identify any idiots on this forum.
                  By the way, just to be clear, I said Mamamax thought I was an idiot (joking of course), not that I thought Linda thought I was an idiot.

                  Linda's sig line may not even refer to anyone in particular or even to someone on this forum. We can't know.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by hdugger
                    I wouldn't even be tempted. Exercise is simple and generally beneficial, and surgery is fraught with dangers. Really, not even a close call for me.

                    But, I'm not faced with the pain and dangers of scoliosis - I never hurt when I'm not moving, and nothing in my structural problems affects my internal organs. So, my decision not to have surgery is in no way equivalent to the choice someone with scoliosis makes.
                    Fair enough.

                    If I had to generalize from my surgeries and those of my kids, parents, brothers, etc., I would characterize surgery as a quick fix that has an excellent safety record.

                    And my guess is that is likely a fair assessment of most surgeries done today.
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                      By the way, just to be clear, I said Mamamax thought I was an idiot (joking of course), not that I thought Linda thought I was an idiot.

                      Linda's sig line may not even refer to anyone in particular or even to someone on this forum. We can't know.
                      Yeah my comment was in jest - born from frustration. Apologies Pooka1, I'm sure you're not at idiot. Sometimes our conversations are very frustrating - my comment was the stress talking. Which, probably makes me the idiot Hence, I seldom argue with myself

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                        Yeah my comment was in jest - born from frustration. Apologies Pooka1, I'm sure you're not at idiot. Sometimes our conversations are very frustrating - my comment was the stress talking. Which, probably makes me the idiot Hence, I seldom argue with myself
                        Mamamax, please do not think this needs saying. All of this is present but unspoken always.

                        On this forum especially, I try to always follow the advice of to be hurt and forgive is saintly. But it is better to understand and not to be hurt at all.

                        Other forums about less critical matters, I have other guiding principles.
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                          Mamamax, please do not think this needs saying. All of this is present but unspoken always.

                          On this forum especially, I try to always follow the advice of to be hurt and forgive is saintly. But it is better to understand and not to be hurt at all.

                          Other forums about less critical matters, I have other guiding principles.
                          Well I disagree (what's new?) I do think it needs to be said. Truth is - scoliosis and all that it implies, can make for some emotional conversation - from the discussions we have with our doctors, to the sometimes conflicting opinions we offer in forum. I agree that the only sanity is forgiveness. Also agree it is better to understand and not be hurt at all. The disconnect is that there is no real understanding of the idiopathic. The "understanding" becomes subjective, and the subjectivities almost too numerous to count. Anyway, it is a new day and life goes on. ;-)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                            A tiring discussion - but here goes ...

                            Where are all the long term studies? Of anything!

                            If I were to have surgery today, there are no long term studies available for the method that would be used.

                            If I were to sign into inpatient treatment at the large Schroth clinic in Germany, there would be no long term studies available.

                            How do we get studies? There's a topic worth exploring. Answer: Industry Funding, University support, industry sponsored trials, etc, etc, etc. Surgery is bigger money - way bigger money. Example: Medtronic is able to pay a single surgeon 1.35 Billion dollars for the invention of one conic screw http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/23/bu...erland&emc=rss

                            There is no funding for Physical Therapy/Rehabilitation that would support trials and studies on a comparative level - much less pay big money for an invention, say a decent brace that performs well. This very topic was addressed at SOSORT 2010 with a call to hopefully level the playing field in the future. Meanwhile, those in private practice cannot begin to financially fund their own trials.

                            As always, the answer to most things is: Money.

                            Pooka1 - your Quackwatch reference is misleading and outdated. Schroth does not appear on the Quackwatch alert list, and never has. And we have no idea who the so called consultant is that you reference - a reason the identity was left off the "opinion" from an unknown source?

                            Thank YOU!! My feelings exactly. I believe that money is what makes pursuing research papers, simply to be recognized in this recession is not going to be enough of a motivator.

                            I have been though surgery...its not the ideal treatment. Scaring, complications, being laid up, long term complications, one of my friends daughters rods broke...talk about complications.

                            Surgery is and should always be a last option...only considered if person is suffering and the outcome outweighs the many disadvantages.


                            Is it just me? Or does it appear that some on line here with surgery success...see that as an only option for treatment...if your eyes only see one option...you can't be open to other treatments..and I mean this in the kindest way. I do appreciate your vigor for fairness and making sure people see the quacks out there...but in your desire for ...what exactly is your goal here? Truth? Good health? Honest treatments? Testimonies that work?
                            Does the X-rays showing Martha's success do nothing for you?

                            Dare to dream....there are two methods of treatment...eastern and western medicine..treat the symptoms with pills /sugary or get to the bottom of the disease and see the WHOLE person. I believe Eastern medicine can be beneficial...but western medicine is still needed. Heart surgery, western medicine...diet exercise, life changes...treat the whole body..there r no quick fixes in life. Surgery should be last option. Anyway my reason for posting is not so much for your comments..although I do enjoy the lively debate.

                            This is to spark the researching community to know that there is indeed a need for documentation and changes. Even if its as Pooka like to say disprove benefits of exercise..unfortunately I do believe your going to lose that one....Exercise is beneficial in all situations..its a no brainer.

                            Can it reverse scoliosis! Come on people...I know we have intellectual lurkers here....
                            age 15
                            Daughter diagnosed at age 13
                            T20 l23 10-09
                            T27 L27 1/2010

                            T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
                            T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
                            T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

                            Type 1 diabetes- pumping
                            Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
                            Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
                              Is it just me? Or does it appear that some on line here with surgery success...see that as an only option for treatment...if your eyes only see one option...you can't be open to other treatments..and I mean this in the kindest way.
                              No I'm sure you aren't alone. But you and they are wrong about why I say surgery is the only proven option. I say it because it is a fact for those in surgery territory or approaching it. There are no proven conservative treatments after thousands and thousands of patients tried it and were studied over decades.

                              I do appreciate your vigor for fairness and making sure people see the quacks out there...but in your desire for ...what exactly is your goal here?
                              Stop people from wasting money on unproven treatments who aren't aware there is no proven conservative treatment that decreases the need for surgery. Everyone has to have a hobby.

                              Truth?
                              That and being factual. But that is specifically NOT what some come here for.

                              Good health?
                              Okay.

                              Honest treatments?
                              Yes exactly.

                              Testimonies that work?
                              These are worthless.

                              Does the X-rays showing Martha's success do nothing for you?
                              Why is she the lone person to do this? She was not trying to reduce her curve. She was trying to stop getting chest infections and embarked on anything and everything to expand her chest cavity. She was blind-sided by the curve decrease.

                              Think of all the adults (and kids) who tried to decrease their curves and failed. You are only counting the EXQUISITELY RARE(!) hits and ignoring the ocean of misses. Hawes has an asymmetrical chest cavity. That is not the case or main problem in many scoliosis cases. It makes no sense that her methods would even hope to work on someone with a Lumbar curve let's say.

                              Dare to dream
                              Dare to collect data. Getting alternative treatment purveyors to do this is like pulling teeth. Clear admits they have no results but is still charging people as they do their "research." Schroth is in the worst position now because they were in a position to prove their PT decreases the need for surgery and never did so.

                              I think you are inadvertently shooting the messenger here.
                              Last edited by Pooka1; 11-13-2010, 04:33 PM.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
                                Thank YOU!! My feelings exactly. I believe that money is what makes pursuing research papers, simply to be recognized in this recession is not going to be enough of a motivator.

                                I have been though surgery...its not the ideal treatment. Scaring, complications, being laid up, long term complications, one of my friends daughters rods broke...talk about complications.

                                Surgery is and should always be a last option...only considered if person is suffering and the outcome outweighs the many disadvantages.


                                Is it just me? Or does it appear that some on line here with surgery success...see that as an only option for treatment...if your eyes only see one option...you can't be open to other treatments..and I mean this in the kindest way. I do appreciate your vigor for fairness and making sure people see the quacks out there...but in your desire for ...what exactly is your goal here? Truth? Good health? Honest treatments? Testimonies that work?
                                Does the X-rays showing Martha's success do nothing for you?

                                Dare to dream....there are two methods of treatment...eastern and western medicine..treat the symptoms with pills /sugary or get to the bottom of the disease and see the WHOLE person. I believe Eastern medicine can be beneficial...but western medicine is still needed. Heart surgery, western medicine...diet exercise, life changes...treat the whole body..there r no quick fixes in life. Surgery should be last option. Anyway my reason for posting is not so much for your comments..although I do enjoy the lively debate.

                                This is to spark the researching community to know that there is indeed a need for documentation and changes. Even if its as Pooka like to say disprove benefits of exercise..unfortunately I do believe your going to lose that one....Exercise is beneficial in all situations..its a no brainer.

                                Can it reverse scoliosis! Come on people...I know we have intellectual lurkers here....
                                You're welcome .... and yes, the documented addition to the literature/story of Martha Hawes gives me a great deal of encouragement for the future. She continues to publish every 4 years ... and word on the street is: There are more Martha's out there. Personally, I've made an appointment with an osteopath, we will discuss her. There is another forum member here who is now working with Martha's osteopath. Hope to hear from her soon!

                                Comment

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