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How folkscience can kill innocent babies

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Pooka1
    No it's not quite that dismal.
    It is. You have to look at the tables in your link. The "evolution only" percentages are around 15%. The number you're quoting of 40 to 50% accepting evolution includes those who believe in intelligent design.

    So, not a rousing success.

    Comment


    • #92
      Oh for heaven's sake this was about not getting kids vaccinate. Why does it have to turn into a religious/politics free for all
      SandyC

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Pooka1

        I don't think so.

        http://creationwiki.org/Decline_of_atheism

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by CHRIS WBS
          Perhaps that explains why Atheism is on the decline.
          LOL - interesting how the funniest stuff - is also usually, true! Good one Chris!

          Comment


          • #95
            arent these religious posts supposed to be kept off of forum?
            this thread should not deteriorate into one of those believe/don't believe fights!
            it is not helpful, turns people off, and does nothing to help medical information!

            Sandy C...you are so right!

            jess

            Comment


            • #96
              Back to the topic, I've scanned the Salon article (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/06/16/thimerosal), and it still seems pretty convincing. I really have not researched this area at all (although I have a child with who is somewhere on the Asperger spectrum), but there does seem to be actual science (as opposed to folk science) on the other side.

              Some snippets:

              "In May of last year, the Institute of Medicine issued its final report. Its conclusion: There is no proven link between autism and thimerosal in vaccines. Rather than reviewing the large body of literature describing the toxicity of thimerosal, the report relied on four disastrously flawed epidemiological studies examining European countries, where children received much smaller doses of thimerosal than American kids. It also cited a new version of the Verstraeten study, published in the journal Pediatrics, that had been reworked to reduce the link between thimerosal and autism. The new study included children too young to have been diagnosed with autism and overlooked others who showed signs of the disease. The IOM declared the case closed and -- in a startling position for a scientific body -- recommended that no further research be conducted."

              "So far, though, only two scientists have managed to gain access [to the database used to study vaccines and autism]. Dr. Mark Geier, president of the Genetics Center of America, and his son, David, spent a year battling to obtain the medical records from the CDC. Since August 2002, when members of Congress pressured the agency to turn over the data, the Geiers have completed six studies that demonstrate a powerful correlation between thimerosal and neurological damage in children. One study, which compares the cumulative dose of mercury received by children born between 1981 and 1985 with those born between 1990 and 1996, found a "very significant relationship" between autism and vaccines. Another study of educational performance found that kids who received higher doses of thimerosal in vaccines were nearly three times as likely to be diagnosed with autism and more than three times as likely to suffer from speech disorders and mental retardation. Another soon-to-be-published study shows that autism rates are in decline following the recent elimination of thimerosal from most vaccines."

              "In April, reporter Dan Olmsted of UPI undertook one of the more interesting studies himself. Searching for children who had not been exposed to mercury in vaccines -- the kind of population that scientists typically use as a "control" in experiments -- Olmsted scoured the Amish of Lancaster County, Penn., who refuse to immunize their infants. Given the national rate of autism, Olmsted calculated that there should be 130 autistics among the Amish. He found only four. One had been exposed to high levels of mercury from a power plant. The other three -- including one child adopted from outside the Amish community -- had received their vaccines."

              "Even more alarming, the government continues to ship vaccines preserved with thimerosal to developing countries -- some of which are now experiencing a sudden explosion in autism rates. In China, where the disease was virtually unknown prior to the introduction of thimerosal by U.S. drug manufacturers in 1999, news reports indicate that there are now more than 1.8 million autistics. Although reliable numbers are hard to come by, autistic disorders also appear to be soaring in India, Argentina, Nicaragua and other developing countries that are now using thimerosal-laced vaccines. The World Health Organization continues to insist thimerosal is safe, but it promises to keep the possibility that it is linked to neurological disorders "under review.""

              Comment


              • #97
                DPT Vaccine & Autism

                From: http://www.healing-arts.org/children...Vaccine_Autism In Affiliation with the Program in Integrative Medicine / University of Arizona College of Medicine:


                Autism spectrum disorders increased from 1 in 10,000 in 1978 to 1 in 300 in some US communities in 1999. As of February 2007, approximately 1 in 150 children—representing various communities in the United States—have an autism spectrum disorder, according to a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention working group. Known as the Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network, it includes researchers from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and 12 additional institutions. See, CDC Releases New Data on the Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorders: First and Largest Multi-site Study Provides Baseline for Future Comparisons.

                Megson proposed that autism is linked to the disruption of the G-alpha protein, affecting retinoid receptors in the brain. A study of sixty autistic children suggested that autism could be caused by inserting a G-alpha protein defect, particularly the pertussis toxin found in the DPT vaccine, into genetically at-risk children. This toxin separates the G-alpha protein from retinoid receptors. Those most at risk report a family history of at least one parent with a pre-existing G-alpha protein defect, including night blindness, pseudohypoparathyroidism, or adenoma of the thyroid and/or pituitary gland.

                Megson proposed that natural vitamin A could reconnect the retinoid receptors critical for vision, sensory perception, language processing and attention.

                Megson proposed that treating autistic children with natural cis - forms of Vitamin A could have the effect of reconnecting the hippocampal retinoid receptor pathways, critical for vision, sensory perception, language processing and attention.

                Megson noted that many autistic children needed natural, unsaturated cis forms of Vitamin A found in sources such as cold water fish (salmon, or cod liver), kidney, and milk fat, foods not commonly available in the modern diet. Instead, children depend on Vitamin A Palmitate, found in commercial infant formula and low fat milk. Unfortunately, absorption of Vitamin A Palmitate requires an intact gut mucosal microvilli surface at the right pH, in the presence of bile for metabolism. Since many autistic children already had damaged mucosal surfaces due to unrecognized wheat allergy or intolerances, their capacity to absorb vitamin A is questionable.

                Megson also argued that live viral measles vaccine depleted children of their existing supply of Vitamin A, negatively impacting retinoid receptors. Natural Vitamin A, in the cis form, is important for activation of T and B cells for long-term immune memory. Measles, mumps and rubella titers are either significantly elevated or negative, in spite of one or two doses of the vaccine given to many of these children. Fish oils contain one retinoid metabolite, alpha 14 hydroxyretroretinol that has a role in T-cell activation, vision and growth of lymphoblasts.

                Comment


                • #98
                  What's the Answer?

                  It is a fact that there are people for whom, vaccines are not safe. This is something that has personally touched my own family.

                  The challenge is to know who these people are before vaccination takes place.

                  A screening process prior to vaccination is what is needed.

                  The cost of implementation on a large scale - unfortunately, prohibitive. After all, who cares about a few cases out of several thousand people, right? That is until the "rare" case surfaces in your own family.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                    Back to the topic, I've scanned the Salon article (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/06/16/thimerosal), and it still seems pretty convincing. I really have not researched this area at all (although I have a child with who is somewhere on the Asperger spectrum), but there does seem to be actual science (as opposed to folk science) on the other side.
                    That is the Robert Kennedy piece. Someone associated with Kennedy who was on this bandwagon with him has since abandoned it. Can't recall the guy's name. The data rule out a connection between EtHg and autism and his buddy admitted it. Why Kennedy doesn't also admit it is a mystery and it undermines his credibility on everything because of it.

                    You would have to invoke a conspiracy of independent scientists so large that it strains credulity to maintain there is even a possibility of a causal connection. This goes in the column of "Disproved." Kennedy has no relevant training in this field. It is folk science in a cheap tuxedo.
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • Here's a piece written by someone with relevant training...

                      http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=220

                      The last paragraph...

                      Education and contributing to science-based medicine, what more could one ask for? Buy and read Autism’s False Prophets instead of Jenny McCarthy’s new book Mother Warriors. Your brain will thank you.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • You can find much data from around the world generated by independent scientists. That is a conspiracy size seemingly larger than the claimed CIA/MAFIA Kennedy assassination, faked moon landings and US Gov behind the 9/11 attacks put together. That, in a nutshell, is why the anti-vac folks must be wrong on this, along with the boatload of data directly disproving the hypothesis.

                        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0107181551.htm

                        Editorial: Fears About Vaccines Persist Despite Evidence

                        "In the last decade, two hypotheses on autism-immunization links were raised that have had a profound impact in the field of autism research and practice and on public health at large," writes Eric Fombonne, M.D., of the Montreal Children's Hospital, in an accompanying editorial. "One incriminated the measles component of the triple measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine, the other the amount of thimerosal (about 50 percent of which is ethylmercury) contained in most other childhood vaccines."

                        Since the 2004 Institute of Medicine report favored the rejection of both hypotheses, "more studies have accumulated that have reinforced this conclusion, one independently reached by scientific and professional committees around the world," he writes.
                        This is what it means to suggest folks are unarmed to assess scientific evidence in general but in this case, it's graph upon graph upon graph showing the autism rates continuing to climb years after EtHg removal form vaccines in several countries.

                        I can't prove all those data are not cooked. I can only talk about likelihood of it.
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • From the US Food and Drug Administration ....

                          http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac.../UCM096228#toc
                          In its report of October 1, 2001, the IOM's Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to either accept or reject a causal relationship between thimerosal exposure from childhood vaccines and the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), and speech or language delay. Additional studies were needed to establish or reject a causal relationship. The Committee did conclude that the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal-containing vaccines could be associated with neurodevelopmental disorders was biologically plausible.

                          Biologically plausible - yet no "adequate evidence" either way to support a causal relationship. I presume that means - no accurate reporting, or rather - inaccurate/flawed reporting.

                          Kind of like: it is biologically plausible that a chicken egg will hatch, but if no one "reports" it "adequately" then, "evidence" of the event doesn't exist ... meanwhile there are a bunch of chickens running around.

                          No evidence that thimerosal exposure, which is 50% mercury by weight, in childhood vaccines has a relationship to the neurodevelopmental disorders of autism, and yet ...
                          .
                          The FDA is continuing its efforts to reduce the exposure of infants, children, and pregnant women to mercury from various sources. Discussions with the manufacturers of influenza virus vaccines (which are now routinely recommended for pregnant women and children 6-23 months of age) regarding their capacity to potentially increase the supply of thimerosal-reduced and thimerosal-free presentations are ongoing.

                          Comment


                          • But . . . I *believe* the Kennedy assassination conspiracy. (I come by it honestly - my mother was way ahead of the Kennedy conspiracy crowd).

                            Yes, I see the conflicting reports. As I say, I don't really know much about this area. But, given my feelings about medical research, I'd feel more grounded seeing the actual studies, rather than the summaries and assurances.

                            The genetic thing and the explanation that there's always been the same number of autistic kids, but they used to be labelled as retarded . . . I don't know. I've seen lots of these kids (my husband used to work with autistic kids), and I can't imagine that there were generations of these kids with sudden onset of odd non-social behavior that noone bothered to report on. And I can't understand, if the condition has existed for ages and it's just a change in diagnosis, why there's not an equal number of adults being diagnosed.

                            So, anyway, I do confess that I'm kind of conspiracy prone, but some parts of this explanation aren't parsing very well. The vaccine stuff, I really don't know enough about. But, the fact that that explanation is sort of coupled with the genetic "it's always been here, you just never noticed it" makes the whole thing a little difficult to choke down.

                            Comment


                            • Nobody in this sandbox knows enough about this. Robert Kennedy clearly doesn't know enough about this. I would need to study this for at least a year non-stop, maybe more, and gather a stack of reprints and books that would fill an entire section of my home office in order to respond in a dispositive fashion with the actual data which is the bottom line here (assuming it was collected and crunched correctly and wasn't cooked of course). Quote-mining, as we all have been doing, even if done in an honest manner, is useless in a matter such as this. Of course most quote-mining is done in a dishonest manner but I don't think that is the case in this particular thread.

                              The only people who can hold forth on this from a point of knowledge are the researchers who crunched the numbers. Now any one of these papers can probably be picked apart method-wise but when you have paper after paper after paper of graphs from around the world that are going the exact opposite way than they should go if there was a causal connection between EtHg and autism then that almost certainly means something.

                              Scientific malfeasance in one instance (Wakefield et al.) does not mean there is a there there. The crush of papers holding otherwise probably does.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                                But . . . I *believe* the Kennedy assassination conspiracy. (I come by it honestly - my mother was way ahead of the Kennedy conspiracy crowd).
                                Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book with ~1,000 pages concluding there was no conspiracy. I love that guy and may read the book one day but I still think there had to be more than Oswald.

                                Although folks are mightily attached to their beliefs, it is easy to show that belief is not a way of knowing. Just pause for a minute to consider all claims that rest on belief that are mutually exclusive. Yet they are all claimed true and are all held on the basis of belief only. Q.E.D.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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