How folkscience can kill innocent babies

[Pooka1]

Not even wrong

http://www.physics.buffalo.edu/whkin...evenwrong.html

# Lancet retracts a 1998 paper linking MMR vaccines to autism in the wake of a ruling by the British General Medical Council against the study's principal author, Andrew Wakefield. The GMC cited misconduct including unauthorized lumbar punctures and colonoscopies to 11 children. (Autism/vaccine advocate Barbara Loe Fisher responds with a paranoid screed, which is particularly ironic considering her history of attempting to silence critics with lawsuits.)
# Wakefield has now been stripped of his medical license.

This is a good place to start trying to make sense but everything should be checked out... some of this might be mistaken.

[skevimc]

http://www.physics.buffalo.edu/whkin...evenwrong.html

# Lancet retracts a 1998 paper linking MMR vaccines to autism in the wake of a ruling by the British General Medical Council against the study's principal author, Andrew Wakefield. The GMC cited misconduct including unauthorized lumbar punctures and colonoscopies to 11 children. (Autism/vaccine advocate Barbara Loe Fisher responds with a paranoid screed, which is particularly ironic considering her history of attempting to silence critics with lawsuits.)
# Wakefield has now been stripped of his medical license.

This is a good place to start trying to make sense but everything should be checked out... some of this might be mistaken.

This is the part that gets me. When the original paper was published it certainly was one of those things where, if true, would be a game changer. Or at least cause the vaccine makers to re-assess what they put into the vaccines. So a decade goes by and all of that happens. In the mean time a celebrity's kid 'gets' autism and certainly someone must be to blame. (Well, someone except the celebrity who spent years and several surgeries with silicone bags (which have been shown to leak) planted in her chest.) Panic ensues. And when the findings don't hold up and the journal retracts, the panic remains.

When we find out our soap-box (or research paper) is factually incorrect, we should all take a lesson from Rosanne Rosannadanna and learn this phrase. "Never mind".

[Ballet Mom]

I don't generally comment on matters of faith. Immigration is a hot button with me.

Immigration is a hot button issue...period. Not just for you. There is nothing that makes me angrier than people who wish to exploit their nanny, housekeeper, gardener, employee and not pay a living wage to them and expect to shift all their most expensive employment costs to people not involved with the transaction...(i.e. the bankrupt taxpayers), including education, medical, foodstamps, medicaid, emergency services, legal and judicial services, translation services, prison costs etc.

And in the process cause American workers to be unable to compete because they're required to follow employment rules, pay taxes, get licenses and insurance and would actually rather not have to live with other families in a crowded apartment. In addition to bringing gang activity with them, changing our culture and now requiring anyone to speak Spanish in order to be able to get a job.

[Pooka1]

This is the part that gets me. When the original paper was published it certainly was one of those things where, if true, would be a game changer. Or at least cause the vaccine makers to re-assess what they put into the vaccines. So a decade goes by and all of that happens. In the mean time a celebrity's kid 'gets' autism and certainly someone must be to blame. (Well, someone except the celebrity who spent years and several surgeries with silicone bags (which have been shown to leak) planted in her chest.) Panic ensues. And when the findings don't hold up and the journal retracts, the panic remains.

Yes Jenny McCarthy is leading the folkscience parade in this area. It's a shame. Someone recently pointed out that on some TV shows, scientists are given a few sentences to explain this area and on the same show, McCarthy is given several minutes to explain her specious reasoning. This is TV being used in a blind leading the blind leading the naked fashion.

When we find out our soap-box (or research paper) is factually incorrect, we should all take a lesson from Rosanne Rosannadanna and learn this phrase. "Never mind".

Concur. Actually science might be the only field where you gets points for proving yourself wrong. That is just to say that dogma is not allowed and will eventually be rooted out and discarded.

[Ballet Mom]

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2006/08/folk-science/

"Why our intuitions about how the world works are often wrong" by Michel Shermer

Here is an excerpt...

The research section of this scoliosis forum is stocked stem to stern with folkscience.

Why don't you just drop it. Scientists are so pompous and arrogant these days we're more likely to have a civil war than bow down to our scientific overlords.

[mariaf]

Immigration is a hot button issue...period. Not just for you. There is nothing that makes me angrier than people who wish to exploit their nanny, housekeeper, gardener, employee and not pay a living wage to them and expect to shift all their most expensive employment costs to people not involved with the transaction...(i.e. the bankrupt taxpayers), including education, medical, foodstamps, medicaid, emergency services, legal and judicial services, translation services, prison costs etc.

And in the process cause American workers to be unable to compete because they're required to follow employment rules, pay taxes, get licenses and insurance....

I have to tip my hat to you, Ballet Mom. I could not have said that any better myself.

In addition, many of those who employ these nannies and housekeepers, while they are very well off financially, often know of legal loopholes and such to avoid paying their fair share of taxes. And so once again, the families where mom and dad hold down 3 or 4 jobs between them, pay the price...literally. No wonder most working families have a hard time making ends meet these days.

[Ballet Mom]

Why don't you go find a faith healing forum?

It's pretty clear why the Soviet Union was a disaster.

[foofer]

Ladies,

Could you please take it outside?

[PNUTTRO]

For Foofer.

If you have an opinion, just state it. Don't complain that you don't like the flow of the conversation.

Personally, I was astonished at the prejudice that Ballet Mom exhibited in this thread. It never would have come out without the discussion about vaccines. Remarkably, I saw a few very outspoken individuals that are very fixed in their opinions having a good discussion and unforeseen agreement.

Carry on.
p

[Pooka1]

If you have an opinion, just state it. Don't complain that you don't like the flow of the conversation.

<lower lip slowly protruding and starting to quiver...>

STOP! I love you both (platonically of course) and it scares me to see you two disagree!

[Ballet Mom]

If you have an opinion, just state it. Don't complain that you don't like the flow of the conversation.

Personally, I was astonished at the prejudice that Ballet Mom exhibited in this thread. It never would have come out without the discussion about vaccines. Remarkably, I saw a few very outspoken individuals that are very fixed in their opinions having a good discussion and unforeseen agreement.

Carry on.
p

Please state specifically what prejudice you're talking about? The fact that I am aware of who is in emergency rooms here? Or aware of people exploiting illegal immigrants? Or are you just insulted that I said that scientists were arrogant?

[Ballet Mom]

True compassion, true realization that people are victims of their circumstances to a great extent, does not come naturally to some. Everyone is parochial but only some recognize this and try to overcome it. Others recognize it and make no attempt whatsoever to overcome it. Some never recognize it.

Her worldview does not conduce to true understadning, true compassion, an honest regard for minimizing suffering, etc. etc. etc.

That's absolutely ridiculous. It doesn't do anybody any good to have the United States collapse in bankruptcy. Just wait until the bankers have their way with our uncontrolled spending. You'll see true suffering. Including researchers in their ivory towers.

[hdugger]

Personally, I was astonished at the prejudice that Ballet Mom exhibited in this thread.

Oh goodness yes. The foibles of others never cease to shock, amaze, and amuse me. Thank goodness I have none myself.

Excuse me while I go and bask in the wonder and glory that is me

[skevimc]

We have to always keep in mind that people are not their ideas. Ideas, all ideas, can and must be on the table for criticism. People can start making sense at any time (and are sincerely invited to do so).

I would also offer up that there is criticism and then there is criticism. One is good for discussion and the other is really just ridicule masquerading as criticism, which is antithetical to discussion.

[hdugger]

There is criticizing people for what they are and there is criticizing people for what they think.

I have not found either kind of criticism of people very effective in improving my little corner of the world. In fact, I'd call "criticism of people for what they think" the most corrosive force at play in our civic sphere. If it were a force of good, our political life would be in its glory days. That it is not, proves, I think, my point.