How folkscience can kill innocent babies

[skevimc]

That's not been my experience at all.

Against better judgment I'm going to comment on this because this could go in a very bad direction quickly. However...

You have absolutely no way of knowing why the people you see in the ER waiting room are there unless you speak to them and take their medical history. How long they have been sick. Is this their first baby. etc... Certainly this is the case for some but it's also not the case for some. You get upset when people make blanket statements about f@ith (as do I) because it doesn't represent the entire population. It is based purely on preconceived notions aka. prejudices.

[LindaRacine]

Also some posts are removed for being too factual where the facts involved fall under some societal taboo. That is the obvious reason but is never the stated reason for obvious reason.

I think Linda just wants people moving along, a sentiment with which I completely agree. She is responsible for keeping things on track and she is doing it all on a voluntary basis to her great credit.

Buttering me up will do you no good! Oh, well, maybe just a little bit. ;-)

[Ballet Mom]

Against better judgment I'm going to comment on this because this could go in a very bad direction quickly. However...

You have absolutely no way of knowing why the people you see in the ER waiting room are there unless you speak to them and take their medical history. How long they have been sick. Is this their first baby. etc... Certainly this is the case for some but it's also not the case for some. You get upset when people make blanket statements about f@ith (as do I) because it doesn't represent the entire population. It is based purely on preconceived notions aka. prejudices.

Regarding my "prejudices":


L.A. Emergency Rooms Full of Illegal Immigrants

Overburdened by the uninsured and overwhelmed by illegal immigration, public health care in Los Angeles is on life support.

Sixty percent of the county's uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens. More than half are here illegally. About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone are crowding emergency rooms because they can't afford to see a doctor.

According to the State Association of Hospitals, California's public health system is "on the brink of collapse." In Los Angeles County, patients can wait four days for a hospital bed and up to two years for gallbladder surgery.

"The hospitals are closing because of the totality of the uninsured," said Dr. Thomas Garthwaite, director of the Los Angeles County Health Department. "If you're legally a resident in California and you're poor, you have a right to basic services."

But some critics say the taxpayers can't be the HMO to the world. Last year, Los Angeles County spent $340 million to treat the uninsured; that's roughly $1,000 for every taxpayer.

"We're citizens here. Why should somebody from another country that's here illegally get anything that we can't get? I mean that's dumb, that's not right," said Don Schenck, whose son, Bill, is mentally disabled.

Though the Schencks are uninsured, and considered poor by county standards, his father had to find a way to pay for his Bill's care while thousands of others, in the country illegally, get it for free.

"It makes you feel pretty bad when you're born in that country and you're handicapped and you've got a learning disability and you can't get medical," Schenck said.

Mike Antonovich, the Los Angeles County supervisor, said the system has been "basically bankrupted."

The Department of Health has a $1.2 billion deficit. Caring for illegals is siphoning money from other services and forcing clinics, trauma centers and emergency rooms to close, he said.

"We cannot afford to have a open-door policy to encourage illegals to continue to come here and receive all the medical care, because it's too expensive," he said.

Immigrants like Yolanda Hernandez, however, argue that if there were cheap insurance plans available to her community, people would buy them.

"[Americans] have enough money to pay for insurance," she said. "They make good money and are educated. Unfortunately, we are not."


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html

[Pooka1]

...f@ith...

You are very clever Dr. McIntire... very clever. That's going to fool Linda for sure!

[hdugger]

You'll be surprised to hear () that the CDC disagrees with Fox News (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databri....htm#emergency). According to them, it's those infernal old people and people with Medicaid coverage filling up the emergency rooms.

For the purpose of our discussion (about whether the uninsured are getting routine care in emergency rooms), the important bullet point is:

"ED visits by the uninsured were no more likely to be triaged as nonurgent than visits by those with private insurance or Medicaid coverage."

The rest of the bullet points are:

"Older adults (aged 75 and over), non-Hispanic black persons, poor persons, and persons with Medicaid coverage were more likely to have had at least one emergency department (ED) visit in a 12-month period than those in other age, race, income, and insurance groups.

Among the under-65 population, the uninsured were no more likely than the insured to have had at least one ED visit in a 12-month period.

Persons with Medicaid coverage were more likely to have had multiple visits to the ED in a 12-month period than those with private insurance and the uninsured.

Persons with and without a usual source of medical care were equally likely to have had one or more ED visits in a 12-month period."

Side question: I wonder if the over-representation of Medicaid patients (who can't possibly be that big a percentage of the population) is due to doctors not accepting them as patients. That's especially bolstered by the "multiple visits" for medicaid patients. Emergency rooms are a really crummy place to get ongoing care - I can't imagine going there if you could see a doctor.

[Ballet Mom]

Not really fair to average in Southern California with the rest of the nation's emergency rooms.

Very easy for a Portlander to not know the reality of what's going on down here. I know, I grew up in Portland and visit regularly.

[Pooka1]

The point BEING.....

Folkscience, as a popular brand of ignorance from ALL quarters, is killing babies.

Next.

[hdugger]

The important point, for my position, was this:

"ED visits by the uninsured were no more likely to be triaged as nonurgent than visits by those with private insurance or Medicaid coverage."

and I don't imagine that would change by area or proportion of uninsured. In case it got lost in the thread, my position was that Latino infants were getting care further along in the disease process (thus, deferring care until the issue *was* an emergency) and that's why they were sicker.

However, according to the reports, that's not the case. Nor is it the case that infants are getting sick because children are under-vaccinated (Pooka's point). Apparently, just to spite all of us, the issue is that Latino infants are exposed to more adults than other infants, and adults (of all races and ages) tend not to be protected against whooping cough.

So, in summary, forget about vaccinating your children to protect to the herd and just stop socializing

[hdugger]

The point BEING.....

Folkscience, as a popular brand of ignorance from ALL quarters, is killing babies.

Next.

Actually, that doesn't appear to be the case. The issue is that adults are not getting vaccinated every 5 to 10 years against whopping cough (I suspect because they never thought of it, rather then that they're afraid of becoming autistic at 50). And that, apparently, Latinos socialize too much.

[Pooka1]

just stop socializing

Works for me. I am forever trying to maximize my saddle time anyway.

[Pooka1]

Actually, that doesn't appear to be the case. The issue is that adults are not getting vaccinated every 5 to 10 years against whopping cough (I suspect because they never thought of it, rather then that they're afraid of becoming autistic at 50). And that, apparently, Latinos socialize too much.

I'm taking this under consideration because I like the cut of your jib demeanor-wise.

[skevimc]

Regarding my "prejudices":

That is a cleverly worded article. Especially this sentence.

About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone are crowding emergency rooms because they can't afford to see a doctor.

This reads like 2 million undocumented aliens 'alone' are overcrowding LA county ER's and taxpayers are footing the bill. (If you interpret that differently, let me know). There were only around 2.5 million illegal immigrants in 2009 in ALL of California. So this article wants us to believe that 2 million of those immigrants live in LA county and 'alone' are crowding the ER's. Whatever... This is a pointless argument and perfectly demonstrates why I said it could get ugly really fast.

[Ballet Mom]

My point was basically that the large number of illegal immigrants in California who many have not received health care in the past and many do not have vaccinations is probably going to keep befuddling our public health system in many ways....whooping cough only one of the things. I do notice that the outbreak is confined to California.

[Ballet Mom]

I'm sure the number is very hard to pin down, it's not like they actually want to be counted. Plus the number has been dropping due to the recession.


Here's another report:

"A new study says nearly a quarter of the nation's illegal immigrants live in California, despite a nearly 4 percent drop in the state's illegal population.

A Pew Hispanic Center report released Wednesday estimates California had 2.55 million illegal immigrants in 2009, a 3.8 percent decrease from the year before. The state accounts for 23 percent of illegal immigrants in the United States.

The study also says illegal immigrants now compose 6.9 percent of California's population - the highest percentage in the country. "

http://www.presstelegram.com/breakingnews/ci_15966333

[Ballet Mom]

Of course, I'm sure we can all just sweep it under the rug and blame it on stupid demon-haunted people of faith who are the evil anti-vaxers and everyone will be happy.