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Thread: Muscular question to Dr. McIntire

  1. #76
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    Feet are related with 2 important issues involved in Balance: Structure and Propioception. Osteopathy is a discipline involved in both issues.
    It seems that podal captors are very important and an improvement may be achieved with Osteopathic techniques.
    (Abstract of the Thesis in page 7 is in English)
    http://scientific-european-federatio...AGALINA_EN.PDF
    Last edited by flerc; 10-02-2011 at 01:31 PM.

  2. #77
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    scary to tamper

    Quote Originally Posted by whatishappening View Post
    I have Mortons feet. Discovered by my pedoratrist. In fact my back problems first surfaced as foot problems. And my feet aren't the same: the first metatarsal does not bend to 90 degrees on the right foot. Long story but this may have caused my rotated spine- among about another dozen possibilities. I got into orthotics in January. That is when things got so much worse. Unlike you I rolled onto my big toes- you could even see thier inside edges were all calloused. So the orthotics propped me up and basically rotated my pelvis furthur counterclockwise- and I think this was basically either wringing out my L4 nerve or my IT band like a washcloth.

    I had no idea that the human body was a dynamic self-adjusting machine before all of this. Which makes its scarey in deciding how to tamper with it- like some mad scientist.
    I love the way you put this. I would love to know how many of us started out unbalanced with these metatarsal situations. It seems the more common response to it is the inner pronation of the foot. And what havoc that plays above. I just last week had my first appointment with the Scoliosis Rehab Schroth therapists. They do know how to start in activating the gentle exercising to nudge the spine to get straighter. Interestingly I had only two weeks before, discovered (how can we be so dense!?) about my muscle imbalance and the trigger points that are utterly so simple to deal with when you know about them from the Trigger Point therapy Workbook by Clair Davies. It was the first time in I don't know how many years that I could drive someplace and not be so crippled when I got there that I could not stand up or walk after getting out of my van. I have been thinking about that real hard in the realm of how much difference should I make so quickly category. It is a walk along a narrow path to think one's way through this. I was so sore in places I have not been sore in that I was discouraged all over again. But we will discuss that tomorrow at my appointment. It is kind of like the Mad Scientist! At least I know how to tamper with it now. Have been reviewing my anatomy and just got my Frank Netter Anatomy Atlas so I can really picture those muscles. Even if we can't un-curve, we can at least keep moving and functioning when we can manage our muscles. Perhaps within that management for ourselves we can stop a not-too terrible curve from progressing.
    Does anybody have any experience with the very interesting SpineCor Brace?
    G
    Last edited by gail govan; 10-02-2011 at 01:47 PM. Reason: typos!

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by gail govan View Post
    I love the way you put this. I would love to know how many of us started out unbalanced with these metatarsal situations. It seems the more common response to it is the inner pronation of the foot. And what havoc that plays above.
    Why do you think pronation of the ankle is cause by toe length? It seems to just be one of a suite of characteristics that sometimes go together... scoliosis, pronation of the ankles, etc. My daughters have scoliosis and highly pronated ankles but do not have the toe issue you describe. It is not possible to ascribe cause and effect to these things.

    Why do you think pronation of the ankles plays "havoc" above? These two things appear together because they have the same genetic cause. It is impossible and wrong to say one caused the other.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by gail govan View Post
    ..... I would love to know how many of us started out unbalanced with these metatarsal situations. It seems the more common response to it is the inner pronation of the foot. And what havoc that plays above. .....

    I am really wondering now if the unbalanced pronation is not a response to the spine. Someone may have a very small scolioisis with large rotation- like, they born like that or developed it as an adolesant. Then as the person ages and lives life without knowing they have scoliosis, their rotation increases (because they naturally feed into it) and their feet and hips become unbalanced to keep the person standing up straight. I know in my heart this is true for me. As much as I don't want to face it. I am really coming to this concluion at lezst for me, because the more I attempt to balance my feet and pelvis, the spine (lower part-) is rotating more to the right and the upper part is rotating more to the left. The more I straighten the pelvis and feet the more the line between the 2 sides of my abs becomes crooked- the upper abs line is more to the left and the lower abs line is more to the right. Also, it seems the more the front of my ribs want to stick out and the more my mid back is arching. Plus the more I try to square my pelvis the whole right side of my body seems to be contracting. It sounds like science fiction and I must sound like a nut on the internet but this is happening.


    Anyway, I don't think muscles imbalances just happen by chance. Maybe they are protecting us.
    Last edited by whatishappening; 10-03-2011 at 01:09 AM. Reason: took something out

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Why do you think pronation of the ankle is cause by toe length? .......

    This is the characteristic of Mortons foot. It's the odd way the foot works as it rolls through when walking, because the *head* of the first metatarsal is closer to the body, the foot must pronate more- it's biomechanics- I don't fully undersand it. I don't think Mortons foot is related to scoliosis but differences between the feet might- am not an expert on that. You can google Mortons foot for an explanation of why it causes excessive pronation. Mortons foot used to be considered a royal foot because it is not meant for a lot of walking. The Statue of Liberty has a Mortons foot.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatishappening View Post
    This is the characteristic of Mortons foot. It's the odd way the foot works as it rolls through when walking, because the *head* of the first metatarsal is closer to the body, the foot must pronate more- it's biomechanics- I don't fully undersand it. I don't think Mortons foot is related to scoliosis but differences between the feet might- am not an expert on that. You can google Mortons foot for an explanation of why it causes excessive pronation. Mortons foot used to be considered a royal foot because it is not meant for a lot of walking. The Statue of Liberty has a Mortons foot.
    I am still skeptical. It sounds like folk science. I just googled a bit but couldn't find a reputable medical source to back the claim. I know for a fact pronation of the ankles can occur without Morton's foot and is correlated with (is?) congenitally flat feet (both my daughters and myself). It seems much more likely that the long second toe is controlled by the same gene suite (or whatever) that controls ankle pronation. Some things cause other things biomechanically but this one seems like a stretch to suggest that because there are definitely cases of pronation without Mortons foot. The question is... are there cases of Mortons foot without pronation of the ankle. That still wouldn't put the question to bed but it might advance the ball down the field.

    Anyway, pronation of the ankles does correlate with certain scoliosis cases because both traits are part of the same genetic syndrome. I wanted to throw that out there just the clarify the point if you were trying to connect Mortons foot or ankle pronation as causes of scoliosis.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    .................Anyway, pronation of the ankles does correlate with certain scoliosis cases because both traits are part of the same genetic syndrome. ......
    thank you- I had no idea...

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gail govan View Post
    As a dentist, I studied the body, and the spine, and seem to have forgotten that this system is such a dynamic and all pervasive and interdependent system. Good luck to us all. Gail
    I think it would be interesting for you. http://gruporie.com/index.php?seccion=ATM
    The summary is in English and the clinical case is about somebody with scoliosis.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatishappening View Post
    This is the characteristic of Mortons foot. It's the odd way the foot works as it rolls through when walking, because the *head* of the first metatarsal is closer to the body, the foot must pronate more- it's biomechanics- I don't fully undersand it. I don't think Mortons foot is related to scoliosis but differences between the feet might- am not an expert on that. You can google Mortons foot for an explanation of why it causes excessive pronation. Mortons foot used to be considered a royal foot because it is not meant for a lot of walking. The Statue of Liberty has a Mortons foot.
    There are obvious physics reasons to believe that some anomalies in arches might increase the loading cycle. And Physics is Physics!
    I’m not sure the same could not be say about Mortons foot.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    That's an interesting lecture/presentation. It definitely hits on the concepts I have talked about here and in the other articles, i.e. assuming progression is driven from the rotation of the vertebrae, it is rotational strengthening that would be the most beneficial. This is also assuming that improving rotational stability can help reduce/control progression. Too many assumptions for sure, but still shows that if PT or exercise has any hope of working for AIS, the movements and strengthening HAVE to be functional and specific.
    Kevin, I'm asking again about this point because I heard that probably only ligaments holds the spine in a static way, that is, if all the muscles would be cutted in a cadaver with scoliosis, sitting against the wall , the curve would not increase nothing, but if ligaments would be cutted it would collapse. Others said me that this experiment was done (probably not with scoliosis) and that was what happened. Do you know if it is true?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Kevin, I'm asking again about this point because I heard that probably only ligaments holds the spine in a static way, that is, if all the muscles would be cutted in a cadaver with scoliosis, sitting against the wall , the curve would not increase nothing, but if ligaments would be cutted it would collapse. Others said me that this experiment was done (probably not with scoliosis) and that was what happened. Do you know if it is true?
    Hi Flerc... Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this.

    If I understand correctly, I think that is reasonably correct. The ligaments are definitely the primary static component that keeps the spine stable. Without the ligaments the spine would have a very hard time functioning. It's like that with any joint. The ligaments attach the bones together to make a joint. Then the muscles further stabilize once things start to move, as well as provide movement. The ligaments' role during movement is to create resistance on the muscles' origin point and restrain range of motion so the bone on the insertion point can move.

    In a scoliotic spine, the muscles bones and tendons all change shape and an argument can be made for any of the 3 being the cause OR just being misshapen by some other force. One thing is for sure, a spine needs to have all 3 functioning properly (among many others) to have the best chance of avoiding progression and/or injury.

  12. #87
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    Hy Kevin, I started my thread PT as a scoliosis treatment, there I asked some questions so please if you could check it out.
    And about the ligaments holding the spine in static way, that assumption makes me to think that ligaments are the primary ones that we need to "strenghen" if we want to avoid progression. And also, too much mobility and flexibility in spine theoreticaly is not good in that case, because then ligaments are looser?
    I assume that torso rotation in part works because it strenghtens the muscles around the spine and ligaments too. Maybe when the spine is under that rotational force which torso rotation produces, it really activates and strenghtens the muscles and ligaments to hold the spine from too much rotation and injury.
    In your study the patients excercised just 3 times a week, that is small amount of time spent excercising, and that excercise is so simple that if you have torso rotation machine at home, you can do that excercise 3 times a day with no problems. I wonder what kind of results would that produce in scoliosis patients?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    Hi Flerc... Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this.

    If I understand correctly, I think that is reasonably correct. The ligaments are definitely the primary static component that keeps the spine stable. Without the ligaments the spine would have a very hard time functioning. It's like that with any joint. The ligaments attach the bones together to make a joint. Then the muscles further stabilize once things start to move, as well as provide movement. The ligaments' role during movement is to create resistance on the muscles' origin point and restrain range of motion so the bone on the insertion point can move.
    Kevin!! How great is to read you here again really!
    Even not being good to know your reply. If muscles are not part of the static structure, then any change we can do in them, would not change that structure, they could not improve that structure, not at least in a direct way. This would be absolutely clear about tone and strenght, but what about lenght.. Suppose you can shorten every muscle of the spine all what you want. Those (specifics) now very much short muscles, would not holds the spine with less degrees? If the answer if no, then definitely it would not have any sense in expecting some improve geting any muscular change.. except it could impact in ligaments, joints or tendons.. żand fascias?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    In a scoliotic spine, the muscles bones and tendons all change shape and an argument can be made for any of the 3 being the cause OR just being misshapen by some other force. One thing is for sure, a spine needs to have all 3 functioning properly (among many others) to have the best chance of avoiding progression and/or injury.
    Why it have to do with progression? How we may know if they are functioning properly?
    You are the only one that can and don't has any problem in replying this kind of questions.. surely impossible to find another Kevin! We really need you.

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