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Thread: Drugs with anti-inflammatory properties may help scoliosis?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    I've been missing out here lately! Good find Mamamax!

    The nucleus pulposus of scoliotic discs respond to exogenous stimuli by secreting interleukin-6 (IL-6) and other inflammatory cytokines
    http://scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/S1/O1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogens
    Cooking food at high temperatures, for example grilling or barbecuing meats, can lead to the formation of minute quantities of many potent carcinogens that are comparable to those found in cigarette smoke (i.e., benzo[a]pyrene).

    Barbecuing meat was popular back when Hippocrates discovered scoliosis.... Just wondering "if" this might be the naturally occurring carcinogen at blame?

    Hamburger anyone?
    Ed
    Hey Ed :-) Heck, I don't know .. there was a lot of herpes running around in Hippocrates' time also! What confounds me - and apparently some others of far heavier weight (mentally and professionally) is, what on earth causes the genetic predisposition that would allow some to fall to the condition, and others to remain unscathed in groups experiencing similar "exposure"? I guess that's the big question. Meanwhile, that inflammatory response is quite interesting in that research into it could provide some additional treatment options? I guess this means no smoking or meat eating at your spa ... pass the garlic?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    skevimc

    Very interesting. I didn't realize that the muscles around the spine weren't doing all of the work during a rotation. But is a rotation still the best way to engage those muscles?

    Does this study from 2006 measure the same problem discovered in the rotational studies but in a different manner? For instance one policeman may use a radar gun while the other uses a lasar but both are trying to determine how fast a car is speeding.

    Geometric and electromyographic assessments in the evaluation of curve progression in idiopathic scoliosis.
    I've always liked this study. It seems to be a very easy way to determine progression risk, regardless of whether or not the EMG ratio is causative.

    The finding of increased EMG on the convex side initially led to the hypothesis that the convex side was trying to 'keep up' with the concave side. So it was suggested that the concave side was strong and the convex side was weak. But after various fiber type studies and other measurements, I don't believe this to be the case. It's somewhat complicated but it's explained in the discussion of our strength training paper.

    As far as the 'best way' to engage the muscles. The short answer is no. A back extension is the primary direction most of the paraspinal muscles function. HOWEVER, full activation of the muscle might not be the primary goal. Function specific activation is more appropriate. Training the muscles to do what they are supposed to do is as important as getting them stronger (assuming weakness). I can strengthen my legs until I'm big and bulky but that won't make me a fast runner. Same with the paraspinals, you can make them stronger with extensions but it won't mean they are able to stabilize better.

    Our assumption with rotations is that the vertebral rotation is a primary driving factor of progression (certainly this is debatable). At any rate, if the intent is to improve strength to the spinal stabilizers in a functionally meaningful way, rotational training would activate the paraspinal musculature in a way that would 'train' stabilization. This is theoretical of course. I had an aim of my dissertation that would have provided some evidence for or against this, but we didn't have the money or logistics (we needed an MRI).

  3. #48
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    I've heard that before

    skevimc

    Function specific activation is more appropriate. Training the muscles to do what they are supposed to do is as important as getting them stronger (assuming weakness). I can strengthen my legs until I'm big and bulky but that won't make me a fast runner. Same with the paraspinals, you can make them stronger with extensions but it won't mean they are able to stabilize better.
    I hadn't thought of that. That's a good way to look at it.

    Our assumption with rotations is that the vertebral rotation is a primary driving factor of progression (certainly this is debatable). At any rate, if the intent is to improve strength to the spinal stabilizers in a functionally meaningful way, rotational training would activate the paraspinal musculature in a way that would 'train' stabilization.
    You are in good company with that hypothesis. Dr. Douglas Kiester, the inventor of the internal Scoliosis brace and the patent holder on numerous other medical devices talks about rotation. (source)

    Scoliosis is not just a lateral bending of the spine. It is a lateral bend linked with rotation. For rotation to occur there must be an axis of rotation in the midline. I proved this with growing rabbits and a dog while I was still in training. What happens is while the spine grows, the back of the spine is tethered by the ligaments, while the front (where the vertebral bodies are which support the weight) grows without restraints. Eventually there is too much length in the front, and very tight structures in the back. The spine then pops off to the side creating a spiral around the tight structures in the back (which stay almost straight). As such it is growth that powers the curve. If the posterior structures can be stretched-out by hormones of pregnancy, exercise, sleep, etc. or the anterior structure shorten by dehydration of the disk, aging, hormones, etc.; then the curve would be expected to improve. After a certain amount of curve, gravity prevents spontaneous correction.

  4. #49
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    Speaking of research into Alzheimer's treatments...here's an interesting report about a protein/drug used in cancer treatment that may be useful in Alzheimer's treatment. (The possible drug, Leukine, stimulates white blood cells in cancer therapy). Read the whole story at the link, it's very interesting. Who knows what novel therapies could be found effective using already existing drugs?

    Arthritis protein 'guards against Alzheimer's disease'

    A protein produced in cases of rheumatoid arthritis appears to protect against the development of Alzheimer's disease, US scientists have said.

    In the Journal of Alzheimer's Research study, mice with memory loss given the protein fared better in tests.

    A synthetic version of GM-CSF protein is already used as a cancer treatment.
    /
    /
    The researchers have suggested the protein may attract an influx of cells called microglia from the peripheral blood supply around the brain, which then attack the characteristic plaques that form in people with Alzheimer's.

    Microglia are like the body's natural "rubbish collectors" that go to damaged or inflamed areas to get rid of toxic substances.

    The brains of GM-CSF-treated Alzheimer's mice showed more than a 50% decrease in beta amyloid, the substance which forms Alzheimer's plaques.

    The researchers also observed an apparent increase in nerve cell connections in the brains of the GM-CSF-treated mice, which they say could be a reason memory decline was reversed.

    'Crucial next stage'

    Dr Huntington Potter, who led the research at the University of South Florida's Health Byrd Alzheimer's Institute, said: "Our findings provide a compelling explanation for why rheumatoid arthritis is a negative risk factor for Alzheimer's disease."

    An artificial version of GM-CSF, a drug called Leukine, is already approved by the US Food and Drug Administration and has been used to treat cancer patients who need to generate more immune cells.

    Dr Potter added. "Our study, along with the drug's track record for safety, suggests Leukine should be tested in humans as a potential treatment for Alzheimer's disease."
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11035500

  5. #50
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    RA and Alzheimers

    Totally amazing.

    "Our findings provide a compelling explanation for why rheumatoid arthritis is a negative risk factor for Alzheimer's disease," said principal investigator Huntington Potter, PhD, professor of molecular medicine at the USF Health Byrd Alzheimer's Institute and director of the Florida Alzheimer's Disease Research Center.
    I'd always bet that disease makes other disease worse. Not this time.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Totally amazing.

    I'd always bet that disease makes other disease worse. Not this time.
    I agree...all this research really is amazing. So many puzzles just waiting to be solved.

  7. #52
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    Update

    Just got back from my daughter's brace check at her orthotist's office. He checks her brace every six months, approximately, for fit and function.

    He took a look at her latest x-ray and said her spine looked better than he'd seen it before and was very impressed with her compensatory curve. He said it looked good.

    He measured the rotation of her lower back today at two degrees. ( I think he said "Wow" when he measured it).

    And she is still growing!
    Last edited by Ballet Mom; 08-24-2010 at 06:45 PM.

  8. #53
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    Congratulations Ballet Mom .... wonderful news!! Happy for you & heart is smiling big big big :-)

  9. #54
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    Thanks mamamax!

    I'm only posting this so if any researchers may be lurking around...perhaps they might be interested....you never know.

    Hopefully they find another compound other than the isotretinoin they're using now, because the first thing the orthotist said when I told him my daughter had been on accutane was....oh, the one on tv with the irritable bowel syndrome ads?

    Anyhow, he's very interested in seeing the x-rays at the next check.

  10. #55
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    That is great news, and I have been reading most of your links...wow...takes the passion of some concerned parents to do this investigative research. letters.

    Now this is intriguing, an anti inflammatory response or possible auto immune if I may recap what I previously read in your posts.

    I wonder if there is other ways to mimic anti inflammatory response...other medicines that may be otc.

    The other ? is yor dd still taking the Accutane? Do you think once she stops the scoliosis may return? or if we can get them past the growth period it would stop....this new finding may open doors and more Questions.

    my dd does have diabetes another auto immune disease that they do not understand the cause. Is scoliosis defined as a disease? An autoimmune disease?

    oh thanks for sharing....it gives me hope.

    Are there any other children with scoliosis that have had similar results w Accutane?
    age 15
    Daughter diagnosed at age 13
    T20 l23 10-09
    T27 L27 1/2010

    T10 L 20 in brace 4/2010
    T22 L25 12/2010 out of brace
    T24 L25 7/2011 out of brace

    Type 1 diabetes- pumping
    Wearing a Boston brace and Schroth therapy
    Faith, Hope, and Love- the greatest of these is Love


  11. #56
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    This just in...

    A new study from Harvard ties Crohns Disease and Colitis to chronic bacterial infection. People with a particular genetic make-up may be more susceptible.

    Bacteria Identified That May Lead to Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Certain Individuals

    There are two principal forms of IBD: Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. Approximately 30,000 new IBD cases are diagnosed each year in the U.S.
    "In this study, we identified two microbes that instigate gut inflammation that leads to inflammatory bowel disease in mice," said lead investigator Wendy Garrett, assistant professor of immunology and infectious diseases at HSPH. "We show using both metagenomic and conventional culture techniques that an individual's genetic background influences what bacteria reside within his or her intestine. Several studies are currently underway examining the intestinal microbial communities of patients with IBD and we are looking forward to exploring the role of the Enterobacteriaceae we have identified in patients with IBD."
    So there you have it. Genes may make the body more (or less) inviting to particular microorganisms that can in turn lead to illness. The fact that microbes evolve millions of times faster than humans makes it easy to see how this could happen. Furthermore this provides an explanation of why one twin may have a mental or physical disorder while the other is healthy.
    Last edited by Dingo; 09-17-2010 at 10:32 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbluefrog View Post
    That is great news, and I have been reading most of your links...wow...takes the passion of some concerned parents to do this investigative research. letters.

    Now this is intriguing, an anti inflammatory response or possible auto immune if I may recap what I previously read in your posts.

    I wonder if there is other ways to mimic anti inflammatory response...other medicines that may be otc.

    The other ? is yor dd still taking the Accutane? Do you think once she stops the scoliosis may return? or if we can get them past the growth period it would stop....this new finding may open doors and more Questions.

    my dd does have diabetes another auto immune disease that they do not understand the cause. Is scoliosis defined as a disease? An autoimmune disease?

    oh thanks for sharing....it gives me hope.

    Are there any other children with scoliosis that have had similar results w Accutane?

    Hi Bigbluefrog,

    My daughter was diagnosed with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. Meaning they have not figured out what caused it.

    My daughter stopped taking a generic form of accutane in June. Accutane itself is no longer offered in the US due to lawsuits against the manufacturer.

    If anything, my daughter's spine and back continue to look improved. It actually looks to me as if the rotation in her upper back has also been improving, although her rotation has been improving for quite a long time. But last night I was noticing that I don't think I'd be able to tell that she had scoliosis even with a trained eye.

    I honestly doubt most OTC medicines would do anything for scoliosis. Much research is going to be necessary to determine the best drug to use should any of my daughter's experience prove to be of value. Isotretinoin (Accutane generic) is considered a blackbox drug. The highest warning available on drugs. It would not be something people should use lightly and not under doctor's supervision. It's actually scary to use it under doctor's supervision.

    I am of the opinion, however, that it is not obviously necessary to take the drug for the same amount of time that acne patients do. There may also be other retinoids that could be used that are safer. This is something that would need to be determined in testing in research studies.

    I agree, I think this is very hopeful.

    As to other scoliosis patients having similar results using accutane...I have no idea. I have to believe that my daughter's particular circumstances would have been very rare. Number one, most people don't watch their kids nearly as much as I have watched my daughter over the years, due to her being in ballet almost daily. Two, most people on accutane don't have acne bad enough this young requiring acutane treatment at this age while she's still growing (should that have any influence on her results). And three, ballet is extreme. I doubt most people would even notice the things that I notice neurologically in their kids because of the extreme balance and muscular control required in these positions. I think I just happened to be the right person, in the right circumstances at the right time.

    http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...ts/Joff450.jpg

    http://www.dance.net/topic/7408544/1...tml&replies=18

    I decided to wait until her next appt. in November to make sure the curve doesn't revert before writing my letter to Dr. Collins of NIH. I have also decided to include Dr. Lenke in the letter, seeing as he's to be head of the Scoliosis Research Society. Hopefully somebody will be interested....if the Europeans don't get there first.
    Last edited by Ballet Mom; 09-17-2010 at 01:42 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    A new study from Harvard ties Crohns Disease and Colitis to chronic bacterial infection. People with a particular genetic make-up may be more susceptible.

    Bacteria Identified That May Lead to Inflammatory Bowel Disease in Certain Individuals





    So there you have it. Genes may make the body more (or less) inviting to particular microorganisms that can in turn lead to illness. The fact that microbes evolve millions of times faster than humans makes it easy to see how this could happen. Furthermore this provides an explanation of why one twin may have a mental or physical disorder while the other is healthy.
    Hi Dingo,

    That's very interesting. It's amazing to me that a drug that reduces most of the inflammatory markers in the body can somehow cause an inflammatory disease. Perhaps this is part of the reason why. Maybe the gut bacteria are somehow changed or disrupted by the accutane treatment in some people.

    This is not the only side-effect or complication of accutane use. It is not what my daughter got. It is, however, one that wasn't listed in earlier information disclosure pamphlets that you are required to sign away your life on before you use isotretinoin and that is why the lawsuits are focusing on this issue more than others.

  14. #59
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    RA and Bacteria

    BalletMom

    Maybe the gut bacteria are somehow changed or disrupted by the accutane treatment in some people.
    Any disruption or change in gut bacteria has the potential to trigger strange side effects.

    Rheumatoid Arthritis has been tied to chronic bacterial infection in the stomach.
    Gut-Residing Bacteria Trigger Arthritis in Genetically Susceptible Individuals

    Interestingly enough when doctors cured a woman of H Pylori infection (the bacteria that causes ulcers and stomach cancer) her Rheumatoid Arthritis flared up.

    Exacerbation of rheumatoid arthritis following Helicobacter pylori eradication: disruption of established oral tolerance against heat shock protein?

    Perhaps H Pylori was filling a spot in her stomach and when doctors killed it with antibiotics another bacteria filled the spot. Maybe this is the bacteria that triggers RA. However it works this probably tells scientists something important about RA.

    This also shows why it's so hard to determine the cause of a complex health problem. In RA joint damage might be triggered by the bodies response to a stomach infection. That's not an easy thing to tie together. The first thing that researchers look at in Scoliosis is the spine. But the root of the problem could be almost anywhere in the body.
    Last edited by Dingo; 09-18-2010 at 04:05 PM.

  15. #60
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    That's amazing Dingo!

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