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Thread: Interview with Dr. Alain Moreau, creator of Scoliosis blood test

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I think I would have a hard time believing that OPN drives curve progression. I would be more willing to believe that OPN rises as a response to curve progression.
    I agree but for different reasons.

  2. #32
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    i dont buy it...and i dont subscribe to the bacteria cause...many people dont, whether they write in or not..
    including patients with scoli...and doctors...
    furthermore, if anyone checked up on folks who are exposed to lots of bacteria when children, they might find that those people do not develop scoli!
    just sayin'...

    jess

  3. #33
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    jrnyc, did you send to me a PM some days ago?

  4. #34
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    no...i did not...one time i disagreed with something you wrote...you accused me of "attacking" you...and you said you would "block" any posts by me...so no, i certainly did not

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Flerc,
    If OPN is produced as a response to inflamation and then, once present, acts to drive progression, one would think that prolotherapy, as mentioned in your other thread, would be unsuccessful if not outright dangerous in the scoliotic patient. The whole purpose of the prolotherapy is to induce inflamation as a means to promote healing. Just a thought.
    Great roher01!, the conclusion is right if assumptions are true.
    Can we be sure at least than OPN is produced as a response to inflamation?
    what more produce Opn except the progression itself?
    Once scoliosis is triggered, mycrobacterias can produce Opn?

  6. #36
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    I don't subscribe to bacterial, viral causes in MOST IS cases. If they were caused by a pathogen, other than what caused the original germ line mutation, it wouldn't be idiopathic. For example, polio causes scoliosis in some people. Of course, we should all be clean for our own health, but I have known plenty of filth-weasels that didn't have scoliosis. However, that doesn't mean that OPN is not involved somehow. It would be awesome if we could "clean up" and get rid of idiopathic scoliosis, but we all know it's not that easy.

    PNUTTRO,
    I have a limited education to draw on compared to you (B.S. in Cell and Molecular Biology). I make my own conclusions based on what seems logical to me and from personal experience. I have experienced that I react differently to most medications than would be expected. For instance, melatonin as I had mentioned earlier. I also react unpredictably to muscle relaxants and other meds. That is too bad because I suffer horribly from muscle spasms. I would be interested to know what your reasons are. I do see the flaw, as you mentioned, with being in a range or "normal". But, with that said, I think the medical profession has trouble with many tests in general that measure quantities of substances in the blood for that very reason. As individuals we "generally" fall into a category within normal ranges for any given substance, but what if we are one that is an outlier and that is perfectly "normal" for us? I would like to see human studies that show what happens when OPN is medically reduced, not by fusion or bracing. Obviously OPN plays important roles in function that have nothing to do with scoliosis.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 06-17-2010 at 08:00 PM. Reason: nonsense sentence

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    no...i did not...one time i disagreed with something you wrote...you accused me of "attacking" you...and you said you would "block" any posts by me...so no, i certainly did not
    I did not remember to say I would "block" any posts of no one, in fact I did not know that PM can be blocked. Any way thanks for this response.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Flerc

    Think of it this way. OPN is not only an engine but it's also a speedometer. I believe this is because it performs multiple jobs inside the body. For instance it's involved in bone remodeling, the immune system, inflammation, etc.
    Dingo do you know which are all these jobs?

  9. #39
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    Something I missed earlier. Dingo mentioned that the forelimbs of mice were removed causing OPN to rise. These mice then developed scoliosis. How can it be determined that it was the OPN that caused the scoliosis and not muscle/ligament/nerve damage and the fact that the mice had to adapt to being bipedal when they, in fact, are not supposed to be? Could pain have been a driving factor also? I'm sure that their post surgical pain was not even addressed. I don't think this particular test proves anything about OPN function other than it is elevated after trauma.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Something I missed earlier. Dingo mentioned that the forelimbs of mice were removed causing OPN to rise. These mice then developed scoliosis. How can it be determined that it was the OPN that caused the scoliosis and not muscle/ligament/nerve damage and the fact that the mice had to adapt to being bipedal when they, in fact, are not supposed to be? Could pain have been a driving factor also? I'm sure that their post surgical pain was not even addressed. I don't think this particular test proves anything about OPN function other than it is elevated after trauma.
    rabbits of Sastre developing scoliosis because trauma on cartilages , remains always being quadrupeds

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    rabbits of Sastre developing scoliosis because trauma on cartilages , remains always being quadrupeds
    Which cartilage?

  12. #42
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    http://www.sastre-roca.com/metodofed.html
    Sure of vertebras : Descomprimir los cartílagos neurocentrales y epifisarios inhibidos.
    Probably of discs too:
    Modificar la orientación patológica de las fibras del anillo fibroso del disco intervertebral.
    I'm looking for the article..

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    . But, with that said, I think the medical profession has trouble with many tests in general that measure quantities of substances in the blood for that very reason.
    I disagree. Most blood tests are very good at screening people that will require further examination.

    My biggest problem with any test for scoliosis to date is that NONE of them significantly change the clinical outcome for anyone. For most people, their curve won't progress. For the remaining people, you always end up with surgery. Everyone gets x-rays.

    The most important factor is prediction of progression and Moreau's test doesn't do that. He doesn't even say that the patients with the lowest scores have the biggest curves.

    Axial claims that Scolioscore is predictive of progression, but I don't believe it yet. The statistical contributions of 52 independent factors requires a HUGE population to reach significance. It is still hard to say.

    p

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNUTTRO View Post
    The test has great sensitivity and but little specificity.

    There is nothing about this test that would make me feel better after having it done.

    The dot plot on page 607 (figure 3) [Spine. 2010 Jun 1;35(13):E601-8] shows that most controls and patients fall into the range of 85-150. These are means of 3 independent tests for each individual. They state that the variation was "typically less than 10%. So a person with a score of 100 (is actually representative of a range from 95-105). If you get a score of 100-120, this test tell you nothing about if you are a patient or a control. More than 50% of the whole population is in this range.

    Sorry, I wouldn't think my kid is out of the woods based on this test. It has zero predictive value in my mind.

    Even if I got a score of 30, then it still means that I am going to do all the same stuff that I was planning to do anyway. Watch and wait. It doesn't change anything. If you got a score over 200, do you have enough confidence in the test to just do nothing, or are you going to watch for the scoliosis anyway?

    Same thing with the genetic test. The doctors are not changing their treatment plans based on a Scolioscore. Parents are [NOT] going to change their observations of their kids.
    This is a good point. It would take quite a bit of conclusive data to have this dramatically change the treatment paradigm.

    A serious problem I see with this is that OPN is ubiquitously expressed. The patient values and control values should not have a huge overlap. If so, there would be a lot of false positives and potentially ramp up anxiety in some patients.

    What is the relationship of OPN and the menstrual cycle? What about during a growth spurt? The body uses inflammation to assist in remodeling, i.e. it's not always a bad thing. What role does OPN play in the immune system's response to bacteria? Does it play a role in anti-body production?

    If a relationship exists with progression and stability, I would see this as more an effect rather than a cause. But as this is a relatively new avenue it will be interesting to learn more about as more data is published.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Something I missed earlier. Dingo mentioned that the forelimbs of mice were removed causing OPN to rise. These mice then developed scoliosis. How can it be determined that it was the OPN that caused the scoliosis and not muscle/ligament/nerve damage and the fact that the mice had to adapt to being bipedal when they, in fact, are not supposed to be? Could pain have been a driving factor also? I'm sure that their post surgical pain was not even addressed. I don't think this particular test proves anything about OPN function other than it is elevated after trauma.
    Exactly!

    --Linda

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