Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 31

Thread: Exercise helps patients with MS and Schizophrenia

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    948

    Exercise helps patients with MS and Schizophrenia

    There is debate about whether exercise and fitness helps children with Scoliosis. However exercise has been found to benefit patients who suffer from many different diseases. This includes diseases that on the surface don't appear to have any relationship to physical fitness.

    Exercise Helps Protect Brain of Multiple Sclerosis Patients, Study Suggests

    "We found that aerobic fitness has a protective effect on parts of the brain that are most affected by multiple sclerosis," said Ruchika Shaurya Prakash, lead author of the study and assistant professor of psychology at Ohio State University.
    "Physically fit MS patients had fewer lesions compared to those who weren't as fit and the lesions they did have tended to be smaller," Prakash said. "This is significant and can help explain why the higher-fit patients did better on tests of brain functioning."
    Schizophrenia: Regular Exercise Guidelines Still Apply

    Regular exercise can play an important a role in improving the physical and mental wellbeing of individuals with schizophrenia, according to a review published in The Cochrane Library. Following a systematic review of the most up-to-date research on exercise in schizophrenia, researchers concluded that the current guidelines for exercise should be followed by people with schizophrenia just as they should by the general population.
    The researchers found that exercise programmes improved mental state for measures including anxiety and depression, particularly when compared to standard care.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-12-2010 at 09:50 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    We know that practically everyone can benefit by engaging in some form of physical fitness routine. I'm not quite following how you are linking these study articles to scoliosis.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    948

    fitness

    rohrer01

    It's fascinating to me that a high level of aerobic fitness would protect the brain from damage caused by MS. It's not something I would have put together.

    But like you said,
    We know that practically everyone can benefit by engaging in some form of physical fitness routine.
    And you are right. The MS study shouldn't necessarily be a surprise. We don't always know the way in which fitness helps but the bias should always be in favor of it.

    But have a quick read through the posts in this thread. (Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis) For many people the bias is decisively against exercise. This is true even with multiple scientific studies that show a clear benefit to strength training. Morover evidence is mounting that the muscles in the spine may be the prime instigator for curve progression.

    But inspite of that many people (including doctors) flat out reject exercise for Scoliosis. On my son's first visit to a spine specialist/surgeon I asked him if exercise would help and his answer was unequivocal. He shook his head and said, "exercise has no impact on Scoliosis."

    No doubt there are probably many doctors who would say the same about exercise and Multiple Sclerosis.
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-12-2010 at 05:33 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    rohrer01

    It's fascinating to me that a high level of aerobic fitness would protect the brain from damage caused by MS. It's not something I would have put together.

    But like you said,


    And you are right. The MS study shouldn't necessarily be a surprise. We don't always know the way in which fitness helps but the bias should always be in favor of it.

    But have a quick read through the posts in this thread. (Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis) For many people the bias is decisively against exercise. This is true even with multiple scientific studies that show a clear benefit to strength training. Morover evidence is mounting that the muscles in the spine may be the prime instigator for curve progression.

    But inspite of that many people (including doctors) flat out reject exercise for Scoliosis. On my son's first visit to a spine specialist/surgeon I asked him if exercise would help and his answer was unequivocal. He shook his head and said, "exercise has no impact on Scoliosis."

    No doubt there are probably many doctors who would say the same about exercise and Multiple Sclerosis.
    Bold added by me. I was surprized to read this statement almost word for word on the SRS website. Since I was diagnosed in 1985, exercise was always pushed as the only treatment for me since I couldn't be braced. It didn't have much of an impact that I'm aware of except to prevent progression maybe. I can't even say that for sure, because I am progressing. However, maybe it slowed it down. I have always been a proponent for exercise. If a person just lays around being a slug, you can usually spot them. They are very flabby and unhealthy looking (whether thin or not). Even an overweight person that is active looks to have more tone and strength to them. Just my personal observation.
    I have a quite unique situation with my curve, as I stated in a different thread I have only found one scoli doc that has ever seen a curve pattern similar to mine, and believe me, I have seen plenty. The PT's have had a hard time coming up with any exercises that have done me any good. Back when I was young, however, I did aerobic exercise and strength training. They had one piece of equipment that helped my pain and I have never seen it since. It was two uneven bars. One bar came across the pelvis and I can't remember if the other bar came across the ankle or the knee area. But anyway it was tilted a bit and you would just "lean over" and bring yourself back up using your back muscles. I don't know if I could even do it now because I have progressed 10* since then and am in a considerably more amount of pain.

    I guess the reason for my story here is, I think they need to put more research into specific exercises for scoliosis, and more than that, they need to focus on specific curve patterns. I also find it hard to believe that exercise has no impact on scoliosis. That is unless a person quits. Then they can't expect the exercise they did as a kid to do them any good if they become a lazy adult. But, hey, look at the majority of the adult population. We are lazy and weak compared to children. I used to fly across the monkey bars. Today I can't even barely hang on. What happens to us? I often wondered if it was because we become lazy or is it that our body proportion changes so much that we are less able. A person "trained" in boot camp could certainly fly across the monkey bars right after they get out of training, but it doesn't last long after training because they don't keep it up.

    This really is a good topic, I just didn't understand where you were going with it. We need to STAY as active as possible. The first thing I did when I found out I was progressing (after a good cry, of course) was to get more active. It's only common sense.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,901
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Bold added by me. I was surprised to read this statement almost word for word on the SRS website.
    As far as I now, PT is indicated for pain in subsurgical curves and non-progressing curves. I think it might have a better track record than surgery in these cases but I don't know that.

    When the SRS says PT doesn't work I am very sure they mean there is no evidence it prevents progression. The only thing that has been shown to do that is fusion though I think VBS might have amassed enough evidence by now also.

    To my knowledge there is no conservative treatment that has been shown to halt progression permanently. If there was then nobody would ever be fused.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    As far as I now, PT is indicated for pain in subsurgical curves and non-progressing curves. I think it might have a better track record than surgery in these cases but I don't know that.

    When the SRS says PT doesn't work I am very sure they mean there is no evidence it prevents progression. The only thing that has been shown to do that is fusion though I think VBS might have amassed enough evidence by now also.

    To my knowledge there is no conservative treatment that has been shown to halt progression permanently. If there was then nobody would ever be fused.
    Bold added by me.
    I disagree, sorry. Yes, there are those people that will need to be fused no matter what they try as I'm sure is the instance with your daughters. But you can't make a blanket statement for everyone. My son had a mild case of scoliosis at about age 8 and it is completely gone now.

    The statement listed PT along with other alternative therapies. It basically stated that the only benefit from these methods were to treat pain symptoms. I'll have to go on their website and quote it again. I quoted it on another thread. I disagree with their statement, though. I honestly can't believe that they could just use a blanket statement like that, simply because they don't know who would benefit and who would not. I agree that there are cases that WILL progress no matter what other intervention is done. But I also believe that there are cases that could be held stable IF the person keeps up their routine of exercise. In MY particular case, there are few exercises that can strengthen the muscles around my curves as even Skevimc has recognized from what I have told him. No PT program has ever helped me. But my son's scoli is gone. Was it spontaneous or due to being physically active? How could one ever prove such a thing scientifically? I will say that I had no particular routine of exercise for him. He was just an active little boy and I promoted that with ALL of my children. My daughter progressed, but she is mild.

    Here is the quote from the SRS:

    "Alternative treatments to prevent curve progression or prevent further curve progression such as chiropractic medicine, physical therapy, yoga, etc. have not demonstrated any scientific value in the treatment of scoliosis. However, these and other methods can be utilized if they provide some physical benefit to the patient such as core strengthening, symptom relief, etc. These should not, however, be utilized to formally treat the curvature in hopes of improving the scoliosis."

    I did have a few degrees of improvement with the electrostimulation. However, it was discontinued after a couple of months. I don't know the reason why. It could have been that my mother couldn't afford to keep taking me for therapy. PT has NEVER had any effect on my particular curve because they could never find an exercise to specifically target my problem area. In my case, it seems chiropractic was the culprit in causing curve progression, unless it was lifting my grandson on my now weaker muscles. I find that hard to believe, though.

    I think more research needs to be done on specific exercises on specific curve patterns. I know that there has been some done already, but to make a blanket statement like that is pretty bold. It's like telling the rest of the scientific community, "Don't bother trying. It won't work." As you well know, scientists need to be very open minded people, but as you've also stated, not so open minded that your brain falls out. It's just after reading Skevimc's posts, I think there is a lot of research left to be pursued. I also believe that if exercise could be utilized in halting or reversing progression, the person would have to be 100% compliant their whole life. That is NOT likely to ever happen. I know I don't want to "live" my disease every day. Even though it is with me every day, sometimes I would just like to forget about it, especially on days when I don't hurt so much. So, maybe this is why they make that statement???

    Bottom line is exercise is good for everyone whether it helps scoliosis or not.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 05-12-2010 at 07:38 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,901
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Bold added by me.
    I disagree, sorry. Yes, there are those people that will need to be fused no matter what they try as I'm sure is the instance with your daughters. But you can't make a blanket statement for everyone. My son had a mild case of scoliosis at about age 8 and it is completely gone now.
    Cases are known to stabilize, regress and even regress completely doing NOTHING. The Greek study documented this.

    I honestly can't believe that they could just use a blanket statement like that, simply because they don't know who would benefit and who would not.
    If the evidence isn't there then it is perfectly acceptable to make a blanket statement saying the evidence isn't there. That is all they are doing. The evidence either is in hand or it isn't. Not both.

    But my son's scoli is gone. Was it spontaneous or due to being physically active? How could one ever prove such a thing scientifically?
    Exactly.

    Here is the quote from the SRS:

    "Alternative treatments to prevent curve progression or prevent further curve progression such as chiropractic medicine, physical therapy, yoga, etc. have not demonstrated any scientific value in the treatment of scoliosis. However, these and other methods can be utilized if they provide some physical benefit to the patient such as core strengthening, symptom relief, etc. These should not, however, be utilized to formally treat the curvature in hopes of improving the scoliosis."
    Completely defensible and totally in line with the data in hand. Anything else would be incorrect and inconsistent with the state of the evidence.

    I think more research needs to be done on specific exercises on specific curve patterns. I know that there has been some done already, but to make a blanket statement like that is pretty bold. It's like telling the rest of the scientific community, "Don't bother trying. It won't work." As you well know, scientists need to be very open minded people, but as you've also stated, not so open minded that your brain falls out. It's just after reading Skevimc's posts, I think there is a lot of research left to be pursued.
    The blanket statement concerned the state of evidence NOW, not whether that can or will ever change.

    I also believe that if exercise could be utilized in halting or reversing progression, the person would have to be 100% compliant their whole life. That is NOT likely to ever happen. I know I don't want to "live" my disease every day. Even though it is with me every day, sometimes I would just like to forget about it, especially on days when I don't hurt so much. So, maybe this is why they make that statement???
    Could be but I think some PT modalities do claim that lifelong PT is not required.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    I guess it is the way it is written that bothers me. It's like slamming the door, at least for the layman. In the scientific community I suppose people would automatically know that the statement really means:

    "Alternative treatments to prevent curve progression or prevent further curve progression such as chiropractic medicine, physical therapy, yoga, etc. have not demonstrated any scientific value in current clinical studies in the treatment of scoliosis. However, these and other methods can be utilized if they provide some physical benefit to the patient such as core strengthening, symptom relief, etc. These should not, however, be utilized to formally treat the curvature in hopes of improving the scoliosis."

    Bold is added by me.
    I can't speak for everyone, but their statement may be technically allowable, but for us layman sounds like the other therapies can't have any value other than for palliative care, which is misleading, especially if something is found to help later on. Thank you for clarifying this for me.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,745
    OK, maybe it's just been a long day...3 hours on the train to NYC, 4 & a half hours back (Amtrak, in the dark ages of 2010, was down to ONE track this evening for trains bound north towards MA )...but i say..

    exercise shmexercise! my curves progressed after herniating discs during a very minor movement, my pain then progressed to the point of going from 4 times a week exercising (for years) to zero times a week!

    and this is my professional, personal, medical and well researched conclusion...and i know, you may say i didnt do the "right kind" of exercise, or you may say "well, it works for children"......or more likely because it is 2 a.m. on the east coast & i've had little sleep in the last 3 days....or because i've been in excruciating pain the last 10 days...but still i say....

    exercise schmexercise!



    jess
    Last edited by jrnyc; 05-13-2010 at 01:04 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,901
    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    exercise schmexercise!
    This is in agreement with the SRS statement about the state of the evidence for PT permanently halting progression.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,745
    aha...research proven by reality!


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,901
    Quote Originally Posted by jrnyc View Post
    aha...research proven by reality!

    Very good!

    I'm thinking an honorary doctorate might be in order...
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Bruno, CA
    Posts
    271
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Here is the quote from the SRS:

    "Alternative treatments to prevent curve progression or prevent further curve progression such as chiropractic medicine, physical therapy, yoga, etc. have not demonstrated any scientific value in the treatment of scoliosis. However, these and other methods can be utilized if they provide some physical benefit to the patient such as core strengthening, symptom relief, etc. These should not, however, be utilized to formally treat the curvature in hopes of improving the scoliosis."
    It is certainly an appropriate comment based on the current evidence. The problem I have with this statement/idea is that it creates a clinical dogma that has become extremely difficult to overcome. Or to put it another way, because most clinicians respond with "exercise won't help scoliosis" it makes it difficult to get a clinician on board with a controlled exercise trial (assuming the money was there, which is a big assumption).

    From my own study, while the doctors and nurses supported the project, it was clear that the project was viewed as "Isn't that cute, a little exercise study". The study wasn't really given a chance to fail or succeed. I kind of got the 'left over' patients. Those that either outright refused a brace, poor brace candidates (high thoracic curves) or didn't have a high risk for progression. It frequently felt like "well, we're not sure what to do so let's try the exercise study."

    Now I will say that I had/have a great relationship with the doctors in the study. They are excellent clinicians, surgeons and have published and progressed the management of scoliosis in major ways (not to mention they are genuinely good people). They have also been very supportive of my career and training efforts. So I don't want to seem like I'm criticizing them. I'm pointing out that, if these clinicians who were funding an exercise study weren't even willing to put a major recruitment effort into the study, how likely is a clinic to do this if they have NO financial investment?

    All of that being said... I have no idea how organizations/websites should word their statement on exercise. I guess including a statement mentioning groups like SOSORT and the effort to study the effectiveness of conservative treatments, including a strong focus on exercise based therapies, would go a long way to begin changing the way clinicians view exercise, i.e. It's an ongoing question not an absolute certainty. I would definitely like to see a more proactive statement concerning exercise from the research societies, SRS, IRSSD, NSF(??). If the response to the question "will exercise training help my curve?" became "There aren't any well controlled studies to show that exercise therapies will affect curve progression. However, there are a number of groups that are actively studying this." To me, this would be a huge victory.

    Just my $.02
    Last edited by skevimc; 05-13-2010 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    948

    drug

    Skevimc

    Imagine the money and attention you would have received if your study had been on a drug or surgery for Scoliosis and produced identical results.

    For patients with 20 to 40-degree curves, survivorship from main curve progression of >or=6 degrees was 100% at 8 months
    I've got nothing against VBS and if someday my son needs it I'll get it for him. But the survivorship for VBS is nowhere near 100% at 8 months. VBS probably costs $100,000, has all of the risks associated with surgery and the longterm risks are unknowable. Inspite of that guess where the research money flows?
    Last edited by Dingo; 05-13-2010 at 03:37 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    8,901
    The survivorship (progress less than 6*) for ice cream therapy at 8 months for 15 patients with the same curves as in that study given the average rate of progression is probably 100% (or more).

    If these kids were not in a growth spurt there is no a priori reason to think their curves would get worse during any 8 month period even doing nothing. My one kid had one documented 6 month period out of brace where her curve did not move and she didn't do a lick of PT much less targeted PT. She would have been counted as a "survivor" yet she didn't do any treatment whatsoever.

    Control groups, a sense of the natural history of scoliosis, and a sense of proportion... more than just good ideas.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •