Page 5 of 12 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 167

Thread: Scoliscore - Quo Vadimus?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,058

    the cause

    Mamamax

    could I have a genetic predisposition to a given curvature (cobb angle)
    Since we don't know for sure it could be a lot of things.

    You might have a gene that...

    A) Predisposed your spine to grow curved
    B) Predisposed the muscles around your spine to pull in a particular direction which in turn caused your spine to grow curved
    C) Predisposed you to a common viral infection that damaged your nervous system and caused your spine to grow curved

    There are so many possible explanations. I think when Dr. Moreau's blood test comes out a lot of these questions are going to be cleared up.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-20-2010 at 12:08 AM.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,058

    blushing

    Mamamax

    you would have made an exceptional scientist I think.
    Thanks, now I'm blushing. I don't know how good I'd be as a scientist but if I worked in that field I'd get a job in Scoliosis research pronto. From the outside looking in it appears that a whole chunk of the field is based on silly science. Scoliscore may or may not be a good test for progression risk. However Dr. Ogilvie's assertion that AIS is triggered by heredity is going to be proven false. Except in rare cases kids aren't born to be sick. When a child is sick something happened to him/her.

    Speaking of which:
    How many years have we read stories where scientists claimed that Autism was caused by genes? WHOOPS! They were wrong. Today the focus is shifting away from heredity and towards environment.

    California's Autism Increase Not Due To Better Counting, Diagnosis

    "It's time to start looking for the environmental culprits responsible for the remarkable increase in the rate of autism in California," said UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute researcher Irva Hertz-Picciotto, a professor of environmental and occupational health and epidemiology and an internationally respected autism researcher.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    Dingo,
    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. As I studied genetics in college, there seems to be too much mounting evidence to discredit it. It used to be believe that eye color was dominant, recessive and was controlled by only a couple of genes and the two light eyed parents could not have a child with dark brown eyes. The study of genetics has come a long way. It has since been discovered that eye color is controlled by many genes and indeed two light eyed parents CAN have a brown eyed child. My sister has blue eyes, her husband has hazel eyes and they have a son with dark broun eyes. I also have a friend with LIGHT green eyes and her husband has blue eyes, they also have a child with dark brown eyes. Sorry, it wasn't the milkman, the kids look just like both parents. I think the point I'm trying to make is that genetics is a little more complicated than you are seeing it. I think scoliosis research should be pursued from all angles. Not every child is born healthy, there are MANY genetic diseases out there. I realize that your argument is that there aren't any that affecto SO much of the population. Well, maybe this is the only one because so many different genes are involved. Every curve is different, therefore mutations could be different. If you classified scoliosis according to curve type, you wouldn't have such a high percentage. I think that scoliosis is just a VERY broad term for many causes of a crooked spine. Idiopathic just means they don't know. It doesn't mean it is the same disease. I commend you. You are a very good thinker.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    2,755
    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    Maybe I'm not using the correct terminology? Actually, what I'm trying to understand is - whether or not an individual has a pre-programmed genetic predisposition for curvature. Like each of us has a genetic predisposition to achieve our maximum standing height at maturity.

    In other words - could I have a genetic predisposition to a given curvature (cobb angle). And if so, then say my spine was fused before it reached that genetic goal ... would the spine still try to reach that goal (even though it couldn't), trying to do so (fused) may be painful just as a matter of physics?

    I think that would be REALLY hard to prove, especially when they are able to move the spine around on growing children and even on adults like yourself. If this were true, your spinecor brace would cause you pain rather than alleviate it.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,251
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    If this were true, your spinecor brace would cause you pain rather than alleviate it.
    Exactly - Unless ... my unique blueprint for progression had already been achieved and my threshold for pain normal vs hyper sensitive and in the absence of any extenuating environmental factors.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,265
    Most published research studies published by scientists working in their own fields are false. There are huge swaths of knowledge as yet unavailable to scientists and not for lack of trying.

    Given that, the chances of lay people advancing the ball down the field are vanishing. It's not impossible but there is such a gaping chasm of knowledge with lay folks that if they did hit on an actual answer to any complex medial question it would almost certainly be purely by chance.

    It is thus unseemly in the extreme when lay people with no relevant training accuse working scientists of pursuing "silly" science. It merely serves to highlight the huge gaping chasm of knowledge associated with lay people about complex medical subjects.

    ETA: It is one thing to be angry and scared about your child's diagnosis and lament the lack of a cure to date. But that doesn't make it right to blindly attack the good guys working towards a cure in a shoot-the-messenger approach.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 04-20-2010 at 08:22 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,265
    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    I think the point I'm trying to make is that genetics is a little more complicated than you are seeing it. I think scoliosis research should be pursued from all angles. Not every child is born healthy, there are MANY genetic diseases out there. I realize that your argument is that there aren't any that affecto SO much of the population. Well, maybe this is the only one because so many different genes are involved. Every curve is different, therefore mutations could be different. If you classified scoliosis according to curve type, you wouldn't have such a high percentage. I think that scoliosis is just a VERY broad term for many causes of a crooked spine. Idiopathic just means they don't know. It doesn't mean it is the same disease. I commend you. You are a very good thinker.
    This is a very rational analysis in my opinion.

    Scoliosis is different than other genetic diseases in that 80% or better have such a small curve (some of which regress completely) that it doesn't affect any person's life in any way. Perhaps most of these kids NEVER AT ANY POINT realize they have it. Under those circumstances, there is no rational reason to suggest that it wouldn't rise to a incidence rate of 2-4% of the population (or better). There is no downside for 80% of people who have scoliosis. None whatsoever. The real question might be why ISN'T the incidence rate HIGHER than 2-4%, not why is it so high. Thus there is nothing in that observed incidence rate per se to undermine a genetic control as has been argued.

    The constancy of this incidence rate in space and time is a very strong argument for the genetic basis of scoliosis which, as far as I can tell, is widely accepted among researchers which are the people best positioned to know one way or the other. That doesn't mean they do know but they are clearly in the best position to know.

    That said, I think scoliosis might be a sort of birth defect like monozygotic twinning is referred to as a birth defect by some. The rate of monozygotic twinning is constant in space and time which suggests it is a birth defect that may be driven in whole or part by a very widespread (and therefore ancient) set of highly conserved genes. Maybe it just came along with the homeobox genes for general body plans. Who knows. The main difference between monozygotic twinning and scoliosis is that the former is truly and completely random whereas scoliosis has a very definite familial component, again consistent with a genetic control albeit of more recent origin. Evidence for this is the relatedness diagram showing the AIS cases are related back to he 9th generation whereas non-AIS people are related back to the 24th (on average) though the "Mormon effect" has to be ruled out for those particular data.

    I am unaware of any research to date that is inconsistent with a genetic control on scoliosis. If anyone knows of any I'd like to see it. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 04-21-2010 at 06:58 AM. Reason: spelling and minor edition
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,058

    gene expression

    Rohrer1

    I think the point I'm trying to make is that genetics is a little more complicated than you are seeing it.
    I hear what you are saying. I try to keep my ideas simple because otherwise it's hard to make a point in a thread. However even if we looked at complicated interactions between genetics and the environment the story would still the same. Organisms work tirelessly to optimize the health and fitness of their offspring.

    Environmental factors weigh heavily in modulating gene expression in humans

    By studying gene expression of white blood cells in 46 Moroccan Amazighs, or Berbers – including desert nomads, mountain agrarians and coastal urban dwellers – the NC State researchers and collaborators in Morocco and the United States showed that up to one-third of genes are differentially expressed due to where and how the Moroccan Amazighs live.

    The team uncovered specific genes and pathways that are affected by lifestyle and geography. For example, they found respiratory genes were upregulated, or turned on, more frequently in the urban population than in the nomadic or agrarian populations.

    This makes sense, Idaghdour says, as urban dwellers deal with greater amounts of pollution in the city and encounter more difficulties with diseases like asthma and bronchitis. So it stands to reason that certain respiratory genes in city dwellers go into overdrive while staying quiet in rural and nomadic populations, he adds.
    I live in Arizona which is blistering hot in the summer. I remember the day that we hit 122 degrees! My wife and I are of Northern European descent so we have very light skin. Interestingly enough our son with Scoliosis has skin that is a quarter shade darker than either of us. That's probably a result of gene expression combined with an extreme environment. His skin turned on genes to protect his body from the heat.

    And no we don't need to do a paternity test. Except for the fact that he's 4 feet tall Scott looks like my clone.
    Here is a video of Scott doin' a front flip.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-20-2010 at 11:33 AM.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,265

    Science versus folkscience

    How to tell the difference and triage claims...

    Science:
    Tentative
    Looks for disproof
    Observation determines proof
    Belief structure modified by observation
    Self modifying —attempts to correct errors

    versus

    Pseudoscience:
    Absolute knowledge
    Looks for proof
    Truth determines observation
    Belief structure unchanging
    No changes — repeats errors

    http://astro.physics.sc.edu/pseudoscience.html
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,251
    Dingo - great link. Thanks. Made me think: I used to say everything was relative ... lately it looks as if it might be better to say - It's all genetic and also relative to the environment.

    The list of environmental factors grows daily ... some are rather "out there." The human organism is the greatest mystery (perhaps) of all.

    http://www.lotusimmortal.com/experim...fect_of_co.htm

    While I don't expect to see reference to the above Quantum biology in Scoliosis Journal within my lifetime - the work does provide some food for thought ... Love the story about two wolves. Rather deep - eh?
    Last edited by mamamax; 04-20-2010 at 06:36 PM.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,251
    Dingo - your son is a Beautiful little boy! What is he saying at the end of the video? Too Cute!!

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,058

    the universe

    Mamamax

    Mostly I read about disease and illness because of my son's Scoliosis. However occasionally I read about physics. Holy smokes, the universe works in such a bizarre and unpredictable way I don't even try to understand it anymore. Conscious thought probably does have an impact on how the world operates. How or why this is true is waaaaaay over my head.

    What is he saying at the end of the video?
    Scott is saying, "Ok I want to see it" but the video cuts off at "Ok I..." He wanted to see his jump in the screen on the back of the camera.

    BTW if Scott is cute he owes it all to his mother.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,058

    News Flash

    This story came out today and I thought it was relevant to our discussion of Scoliosis and heredity.

    Prostate Cancer: Risk Increases With the Number of Affected Family Members

    For a long time now doctors have known that prostate cancer "runs in the family." Men with family members who have been diagnosed with the disease have an elevated risk of developing cancer of the prostate.
    Sounds pretty genetic, right?

    Well maybe not...

    Bloomberg: Prostate Cancer’s Worst Form Linked to Gene-Influencing Virus

    The virus was present in 23 percent of men with cancer and 4 percent of non-cancerous prostates, the researchers found. The tumors that scored highest on the 10-point Gleason severity scale were more likely to contain the virus, the study found.
    This is more evidence that just because a disease hits a family particularly hard doesn't mean it's a genetic disorder. It's easily possible that families who are hit hard by prostate cancer share a genetic susceptability to the environmental damage that triggers the disease. That may turn out to be damage from the XMRV virus discussed in the story.

    The fact that most cases of Scoliosis occur sporadically and identical twins aren't 100% concordant for the disease suggests that the environment is a key factor.
    Last edited by Dingo; 04-25-2010 at 05:43 PM.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    50
    AIS: watch the homeobox (HOX) genes that control symmetry. In AIS patients, their mutated product (multiple mutations btw) will be up or down regulated during adolescence with hormone responses. That will be the major contributing factor to severity of scoliosis in adolescents, everything else will just be collateral damage. It's pretty simple really.

    It's genetic. No doubt about it.

    And just for clarification, Rule Number 1 of bone research: never ever ever ever correlate bird data to humans. Any researcher that does so is way out of their element.

    Edit: Sorry Pooka, just read your post. Your doing it right:-)
    Last edited by Prfbones; 05-19-2010 at 12:11 PM. Reason: Pooka's post
    "The plural of anecdote is not data" --Frank Kotsonis

    Ph.D. in Bone Biology
    Harrington rod and Leuke sublaminar wires 2/1986, fused T4 to T12.
    First revision 3/1987 fused pseudoarthrosis, placed CD instrumentation from T10-T12.
    CD instrumentation removal 10/97 following breakage.
    Leuke wire removal 4/99.
    Salvage surgery; Harrington removal 1/2000, fused to L2.
    Ruptured disc, fusion extension to L4 3/2016.
    Surgeons: David Bradford, Francois Denis, Mike Lagrone

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,265
    Quote Originally Posted by Prfbones View Post
    AIS: watch the homeobox (HOX) genes that control symmetry. In AIS patients, their mutated product will be up or down regulated with adolescent hormone responses. That will be the major contributing factor to severity of scoliosis in adolescents, everything else will just be collateral damage. It's pretty simple really.

    It's genetic. No doubt about it.

    And just for clarification, Rule Number 1 of bone research: never ever ever ever correlate bird data to humans. Any researcher that does so is way out of their element.
    Hey! I mentioned homeobox genes upthread (Post #67). It occurred to me that homeobox genes might be involved based on the constancy worldwide of scoliosis prevalence (similar to the identical twinning rate is constant over the world) and after reading the comment of Ogilvie that identical twinning could be considered a birth defect and as a midline disorder, is not a good experimental model to study AIS.

    We have no AIS researchers on this group but we do have a guy who has a doctorate in muscle physiology (skevmic).

    We also have a few folkscientists who don't know that they don't know.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 05-19-2010 at 03:23 PM. Reason: damn spelling
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •