Scoliscore - Quo Vadimus?

[Prfbones]

Go take a look at the data from the 1930's to the mid-1960's, before surgical corrections. These data contain valuable information on the natural progression of scoliosis without surgical fusion to stop the curve from becoming it's 'termainal' curve.

The data we gather today on curve severity can't be used for that purpose because we no longer know how truly severe a curve will get because we have medical interventions.

So go take a look at the old data on PUBMED. I think you'll find it very interesting.

[mamamax]

Old Data

Prfbones - I'd be interested in seeing this old data - I'm a collector of sorts. Could you post the links for us? Thanks.

[Dingo]

worse among males

Prfbones

Go take a look at the data from the 1930's to the mid-1960's, before surgical corrections. These data contain valuable information on the natural progression of scoliosis without surgical fusion to stop the curve from becoming it's 'termainal' curve.

All the data I see today suggests that Scoliosis is worse among adolescent girls when compared to adolescent boys. However it sounds like you know a lot about this stuff. I'm with Mamamax. Could you post a link to one of the old studies that found that Scoliosis was worse among males? I love to read new things, even if it's from an old study.

[Dingo]

untreated scoliosis

Prfbones

The Prediction of Curve Progression in Untreated Idiopathic Scoliosis during Growth

...a study was undertaken at the Twin Cities Scoliosis Center (Fairview Hospital, Minneapolis, and Gillette Children’s Hospital, St. Paul, Minnesota). The information on all juvenile and adolescent patients with idiopathic scoliosis who were seen between 1970 and 1979 was reviewed using the computerized data-base maintained at the Center.

This study of 727 children found that girls progressed at a slightly higher rate than boys. 25% of girls progressed while 18% of boys progressed. However in this sample that difference was considered statistically insignificant. The data is very thorough and there is no mention that boys had more severe curves.

[Prfbones]

The simple answer is no, I can't post it because it's against the law. You either have to go to a medical library that carries older resources or purchase the copies of the manuscripts from the publishers. Data isn't free, you have to pay for access.

BUT, if memory serves, the Moe textbook actually discusses the data in a chapter of that seminal book. So if you can get a hold of that, you can see some of his meta-analysis on the subject.

[hdugger]

The simple answer is no, I can't post it because it's against the law. You either have to go to a medical library that carries older resources or purchase the copies of the manuscripts from the publishers. Data isn't free, you have to pay for access.

BUT, if memory serves, the Moe textbook actually discusses the data in a chapter of that seminal book. So if you can get a hold of that, you can see some of his meta-analysis on the subject.

I'm fairly certain fair use laws would permit you to post a paragraph or two, with attribution, within the context of a discussion about the topic.

Some relevant snippets of fair use:

"Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered "fair", such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work."

And here are some examples

"quotations of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment
quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations;"

[Dingo]

top drawer

Prfbones

The simple answer is no, I can't post it because it's against the law. You either have to go to a medical library that carries older resources or purchase the copies of the manuscripts from the publishers. Data isn't free, you have to pay for access.

The law prohibits you from quoting a few relevant paragraphs and posting the name of the study they came from? Wow! That's some high level stuff. Does the public have access to the abstracts on catalogues like Pubmed or is it even above that? I've heard whispers of research like that. These are the kinds of studies that would blow people's minds.

You and LindaRacine are good friends. You might not want to risk trouble because of your position at the university. However maybe you could forward this information to Linda and she could post it. Even if you can only get us the name of the study through some type of back channel that didn't compromise your job it would be a big help to the parents on this board.

[hdugger]

Actually, I can locate the Moe text. Can you tell me which chapter? (They're listed here - http://www.amazon.com/Textbook-Scoli.../dp/0721655335 - under the "Look Inside This Book" link). I tried looking through the index, but nothing jumped out at me.

[Dingo]

Csi

hdugger

Wow, several days and no response. I think prfbones would like to show us the research but like she said, doing so would put her in serious legal jeopardy.

I can't post it because it's against the law.

Every piece of scientific evidence I've seen points to the fact that Scoliosis is worse among females. However if prfbones says it's worse among males, I'll take her word for it. According to her signature she's a professor and according to LindaRacine she's not PNUTTRO.

That's good enough for me.

[PNUTTRO]

And I can post anything I like because Dingo has me on his ignore list too.

I think we should make a club.
p

[Pooka1]

And I can post anything I like because Dingo has me on his ignore list too.

I think we should make a club.
p

I would join except that, "I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member." -- Groucho Marx

[PNUTTRO]

I totally missed the part where Dingo accused Prfbones of being me--that's wonderful.

[Pooka1]

I totally missed the part where Dingo accused Prfbones of being me--that's wonderful.

Life holds many wonderful little perks.

[PNUTTRO]

Ignore me please.

For the record. Regarding the Scolioscore (and many other genetics tests), the test give the clinician and patient some information. At this time, however, it really doesn't change the way that doctors will be treating patients. Newton himself in the video says that you must admit, that you just don't know. I think that unless a genetic test gives you treatment options, it is a lousy genetic test.

The Scolioscore test was initiated using related individuals in Utah. Because they have extensive family histories. I don't know if their sample base has changed over time with the addition of new families. We could be seeing a sample bias here. Not sure--because Axial won't publish anything. If anyone has contrary information, I'd like to see it. So for the patient that scores a 3, it could be that she just doesn't have the same genetic background as the group that was used to establish the test.

I wanted to throw out there that scoliosis is a genetic disorder and there are likely multiple genetic factors involved. There is a relatively new hypothesis that common diseases may be caused by a combination of very rare alleles. Most of our genetic knowledge is now based on the common allele causing rare diseases.

Funny thing that Dingo keeps harping that scoliosis is not genetic, but he likes Dr. Moreau's idea of using blood cells for a functional test of OPN activity of musculature. It isn't a "genetic" test, but it argues that the same protein has similar activities in multiple tissues, so therefore the genetics plays a role.

p

[PNUTTRO]

question of bracing efficacy and scolioscore

Why not do a retrospective study with the scolioscore? Both Ogilvie and Newton said it is a waste of time. I disagree.

There are thousands of patients that progressed past 40 degrees before having surgery. There are thousands of patients that maybe should have braced, but didn't. There are less (harder to find) people that did nothing and nothing major happened. There are those that braced and had successful outcomes. Let's see how this test stands up.