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  • #16
    Originally posted by bas2101 View Post
    In my daughter's case, no one ever said, or even remotely suggested that Schroth would cure her scoliosis. I have never heard of any Schroth patient receiving this advice. So, really, hearing this would be much more surprising to me than being told Schroth is not a cure.

    Since my daughter is braced, and many adolescent Schroth patients are, there is no way to tell what Schroth has done versus bracing; she did have a 8-10 degree reduction. However, over the last 6 months she has hardly done any Schroth; not only does her back look worse, but she has been a bit out of breath during exercise. It was always made clear to us that in order to maintain a reduction, decent posture, and normal lung function, she would have to continue Schroth (most importantly after bracing terminates) for the rest of her life. I do not know if all Schroth patients receive this advice, but considering the magnitude of my daughter's curve (now 60T), it was the advice we heard. I imagine kids with greater reduction who get below a certain degrees, would not have to exercise their entire lives. Schroth is hard to keep up. But, for those who chose to, I highly suggest it.
    Okay I stand corrected. I have not gotten that impression from the testimonials except from the adults who are doing it only for pain relief. But like you state, I would like to know what they are telling patients who haven't had their growth spurts and have somewhat smaller curves. Are they telling them exercise and wear the brace for a few years and then walk away?

    I'm very sorry your daughter's curve is still progressing. Maybe when she is done growing it will slow down?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
      That rings a bell. And that assumes 1/2 a day will hold the curve which is hypothetical only at this point. I would not doubt it would make a big dent in the pain though. So the question is with the evidence case IN HAND, would Linda, Pam or the others embark on it (prior to their surgery of course). I question that anyone would do that NOW.
      I'm not certain I understand that. What adult with a pre-surgical curve and in some pain *wouldn't* try an alternative method? In their case, it's not even an alternative (since they're pre-surgical) - it's the only method. So, do you settle on a course of long-term pain meds, or do you try some kind of structured exercise? I'd guess that, if it were covered by insurance, *most* people would try it.

      Am I missing some risk here? Other then cost, why wouldn't you try it and see if it helped? Even if there were no chance that it would hold the curve, what's the downside to trying it for pain relief?

      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
      I guess the main problem is we don't even know if consistent Schroth can hold off progression even though it probably helps pain.
      Yes, that's exactly the problem. There are certainly some tantalizing results, but there's been so little research that we don't have any idea what kinds of curves it holds.

      But, again, if you're an adult with a pre-surgical curve, there's no risk aside from cost. If you try it and it doesn't diminish the pain, then you stop. If you try it and it diminishes your pain but your curve continues to increase, then you get the surgery you would have had anyway. And, if you try it and your curve holds and your pain stops, then you've found a lower risk alternative to surgery.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by hdugger View Post
        I'm not certain I understand that. What adult with a pre-surgical curve and in some pain *wouldn't* try an alternative method? In their case, it's not even an alternative (since they're pre-surgical) - it's the only method. So, do you settle on a course of long-term pain meds, or do you try some kind of structured exercise? I'd guess that, if it were covered by insurance, *most* people would try it.

        Am I missing some risk here? Other then cost, why wouldn't you try it and see if it helped? Even if there were no chance that it would hold the curve, what's the downside to trying it for pain relief?
        Your hypothetical included that it was a given that it would both hold the curve and help with pain. Those things are not known yet with Schroth. I don't know if they would do 1/2 hour a day for some possible pain relief and an unproven and really unknown ability to hold the curve. That last part doesn't apply to Pam because her curve held at ~50* for about 2 decades and might have done so the rest of her life.

        But, again, if you're an adult with a pre-surgical curve, there's no risk aside from cost. If you try it and it doesn't diminish the pain, then you stop. If you try it and it diminishes your pain but your curve continues to increase, then you get the surgery you would have had anyway. And, if you try it and your curve holds and your pain stops, then you've found a lower risk alternative to surgery.
        Yes but the attrition rate is apparently extremely high. It's like how it is theoretically possible to avoid progression during the growth spurt by confining kids to bed for 2 years. It's physically possible but the cure is worse than the condition.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
          Your hypothetical included that it was a given that it would both hold the curve and help with pain. Those things are not known yet with Schroth. I don't know if they would do 1/2 hour a day for some possible pain relief and an unproven and really unknown ability to hold the curve. That last part doesn't apply to Pam because her curve held at ~50* for about 2 decades and might have done so the rest of her life.
          I guess I'm saying that it's pretty easy to find out. And, if you're in pain, you're likely trying things already to ease the pain. So, why not try something that might also hold the curve. Again, I hate to be dense, but I don't see any reason why you wouldn't (other then cost).

          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
          Yes but the attrition rate is apparently extremely high. It's like how it is theoretically possible to avoid progression during the growth spurt by confining kids to bed for 2 years. It's physically possible but the cure is worse than the condition.
          But . . . it's only in your example that the cure is worse then the condition. 1/2 hour of exercise a day clearly does not equal being confined to bed for 2 years. Exercise isn't awful - it's just a little tedious. People don't drop out of regular exercise because it's onerous (as in your hypothetical) - they drop out because they get busy with other stuff. So, again, what have they *lost* by trying. What's the downside?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by hdugger View Post
            I guess I'm saying that it's pretty easy to find out. And, if you're in pain, you're likely trying things already to ease the pain. So, why not try something that might also hold the curve. Again, I hate to be dense, but I don't see any reason why you wouldn't (other then cost).



            But . . . it's only in your example that the cure is worse then the condition. 1/2 hour of exercise a day clearly does not equal being confined to bed for 2 years. Exercise isn't awful - it's just a little tedious. People don't drop out of regular exercise because it's onerous (as in your hypothetical) - they drop out because they get busy with other stuff. So, again, what have they *lost* by trying. What's the downside?
            I guess I just question whether many people will even try if it isn't guaranteed to work for pain. It's hard to get motivated for exercise when you are not hurting; I wonder how many people will do so when they are in pain rather than lay down. My lumbar hurts sometimes and the last thing that sounds good at that point is PT! I don't want to even move.

            And for all we know, much of the attrition rate might be driven by not only this issue but the issue of the pain not being relieved enough to justify a 1/2 hour of daily of PT.

            Hey! I'm just guessing and extrapolating from my situation. And I don't have nearly the amount of pain most other people here likely have. Or at least it is probably more intermittent.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
              I guess I just question whether many people will even try if it isn't guaranteed to work for pain. It's hard to get motivated for exercise when you are not hurting; I wonder how many people will do so when they are in pain rather than lay down. My lumbar hurts sometimes and the last thing that sounds good at that point is PT! I don't want to even move.
              And now, for a brief message from our medical researchers . . .

              bad, bad, bad girl! Get out of that bed *right* now! It's only going to make it much worse in the long run.

              Seriously, according to everything I've read, anything other then a very brief bed rest is the worst thing you can do for most back problems. Of course, ignore this advice entirely if your doctor has recommended bed rest for your back problems. Otherwise, I demand that you get up right now and start walking around.

              . . . we now return to our previously scheduled discussion.

              We haven't actually gotten to the key critique of my recommendation, which is how you decide if the structured exercise regime you're trying is likely to do anything for either pain or progression. Unfortunately *all* we seem to have is some anecdotal evidence. Schroth *appears* to help with pain (based on the anecdotes), and some as-yet-to-be-named mixture of various exercise program seems to help hold the curve (or, at least, reduce it in some cases which we assume means that it's holding it in other cases). But, while exercise *in general* seems to have some affect on pain/progression, which exercise to do *specifically* is still way up in the air.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                And now, for a brief message from our medical researchers . . .

                bad, bad, bad girl! Get out of that bed *right* now! It's only going to make it much worse in the long run.

                Seriously, according to everything I've read, anything other then a very brief bed rest is the worst thing you can do for most back problems. Of course, ignore this advice entirely if your doctor has recommended bed rest for your back problems. Otherwise, I demand that you get up right now and start walking around.
                Hey! I'm not actually complaining about my lumbar. You sort drew that out of me using that voodoo that you do.

                All I really care about is that, to date, it never hurts when I'm riding I guess because that is like sitting and sitting doesn't trigger the pain. And I ride pretty much every day these days.

                . . . we now return to our previously scheduled discussion.

                We haven't actually gotten to the key critique of my recommendation, which is how you decide if the structured exercise regime you're trying is likely to do anything for either pain or progression. Unfortunately *all* we seem to have is some anecdotal evidence. Schroth *appears* to help with pain (based on the anecdotes), and some as-yet-to-be-named mixture of various exercise program seems to help hold the curve (or, at least, reduce it in some cases which we assume means that it's holding it in other cases). But, while exercise *in general* seems to have some affect on pain/progression, which exercise to do *specifically* is still way up in the air.
                Very nuanced response there.

                Look, I think knowing that surgery for pain alone has a pretty bad track record might help swell the PT ranks. But it can only work so much I think before folks just start using drugs. And for the kids not in pain, DON'T DO DRUGS!

                I don't think the bottleneck is deciding which PT program... they are probably all similar i their ability to address pain. The problem is the attrition rate. There are some reasons for the high attrition rate of Schroth and likely other PT modalities that was reported upthread. We can only surmise what those reasons are.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Beatriz Torres View Post
                  Hans R. Weiss MD . Orthopedic Surgeon , and Physical Medicine Rehabilitation is in his new clinic offering to patients from abroad his " Best Practice " and Physio-logic program in Gensingen , Germany.
                  www.scoliosis-dr-weiss.com

                  Hi Bea - Thanks for this posting. Have you any idea what Dr. Weiss is up to now that he is in practice for himself? I would imagine his time would be somewhat freed up for projects he otherwise would not have had time for. Will be interesting to watch what he does in the near future. I wrote to him recently looking for some clarification regarding Formetric terminology - he was quite friendly and referred me to a friend of his. I really appreciate what he has added to the literature.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by beauvais View Post
                    Dr. Morningstar works with my entire family and is wonderful. My understanding is that Pettibon and CLEAR are similar, but that Pettibon emphasizes more long-term work and effect than CLEAR (no 2 week clinics or anything), but I'm not totally clear, so I emailed the link to Dr.Morningstar and am hoping he'll expand a bit on this forum.
                    Hi Tina - Did Morningstar get back to you? I'd like to know more too. He actually participates on another forum that I also belong to .. seems very intelligent, well educated & well spoken.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                      Very nuanced response there.

                      Look, I think knowing that surgery for pain alone has a pretty bad track record might help swell the PT ranks. But it can only work so much I think before folks just start using drugs. And for the kids not in pain, DON'T DO DRUGS!

                      I don't think the bottleneck is deciding which PT program... they are probably all similar i their ability to address pain. The problem is the attrition rate. There are some reasons for the high attrition rate of Schroth and likely other PT modalities that was reported upthread. We can only surmise what those reasons are.
                      Well, it requires a lot of nuance

                      I suspect that all PT is not equal. In fact, I suspect, since we've seen reductions in people using such different methods, that it's probably some simple set of exercises that's shared among the different effective methods that's actually making a difference. OR, it's some kind of awareness of how they're holding their body all the time. Either way, I don't think 30 minutes a day is necessary - I think it's probably a few simple exercises plus the added awareness. But, without knowing exactly *what* is making a difference, it's hard to cut the time down substantially.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bas2101 View Post
                        In my daughter's case, no one ever said, or even remotely suggested that Schroth would cure her scoliosis. I have never heard of any Schroth patient receiving this advice. So, really, hearing this would be much more surprising to me than being told Schroth is not a cure.
                        My brace provider (Dr. Lamantia) is certified in Schroth through the German Clinic and appears on their list of providers. He never in any way ever suggested that Schroth (or my Spinecor brace) was a cure either - I don't recall anyone ever saying that. Unfortunately I don't live close enough to his NYC office to participate in a workshop ... but I'll get there one day!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by spiritofbamboo View Post
                          Its still there. Horray!!!
                          I think one of the reasons it is "fringe" is because when some one decides to do that program, they must be totally committed and dedicated to the process. Most people are not up to the challenge. They want the easiest way to deal with "the problem." It is easy to give up when things are challenging and "hard". For many it is easier to have someone "fix" the problem.
                          The Schroth method of Physical Therapy for Scoliosis is sound in theory and practice, intuitive, individually applied and yet rigorous in its foundation. It helps scoliotic patients function better, even if the curves are not entirely straightened out. There is no claim that it cures scoliosis, but it does improve function and posture. (Look at the images in the book.) This kind of a program demands from the participants total involvement and responsibility for the results. Only a certain number of people with scoliosis will succeed with the program because it is too hard for a greater number of patients.

                          Which sounds more enticing? Do exercises for the rest of your life to maintain or reduce the curves, or get a brace for a couple of years and then be done, or have surgery and not have to worry about it for the rest of your life? And then what do the long term outcome studies show?

                          Why do you think Schroth exercise program is not a viable and good way of approaching non-surgical intervention? Lack of appropriate studies and statistics only means that the studies haven't been funded and/or done. It doesn't mean that the work is not valid, successful, or a good alternative.
                          Great posting - we don't get lot of people here with first hand experience with Schroth so I'm always glad to see someone like yourself adding to the conversation. Agree with what you say about statistics and studies etc ... it is very frustrating to me to wait for the literature to catch up with current reality. I have the book you spoke of and there is a lot of great information in it. Have you been to the clinic in Germany? Would love to here more about your experience with it.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                            I suspect that all PT is not equal. In fact, I suspect, since we've seen reductions in people using such different methods, that it's probably some simple set of exercises that's shared among the different effective methods that's actually making a difference. OR, it's some kind of awareness of how they're holding their body all the time. Either way, I don't think 30 minutes a day is necessary - I think it's probably a few simple exercises plus the added awareness. But, without knowing exactly *what* is making a difference, it's hard to cut the time down substantially.
                            Martha immediately comes to mind as I read this. Where was she last we asked? At 45 min a day? I do wonder if less time would be just as effective. She really is something to watch - publishing every four years, and not hitting an end point yet. I guess any exercise heightens body awareness, so exercise specific to scoliosis would not be any different - and could be unique to each individual. Will be looking to see what SEAS brings to the table this year at SOSORT .. looks like a few PTs are participating this year as well.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I know in my case, considering the pain I am in any form of exercise would be impossible. I have tried swimming and PT and the next day am in agony. So as an adult who is in pain, Schroth would not work for me.
                              Operated on in 1966, harrington rods inserted from T4 to L3, here in Australia. Fusion of the said vertebrae as well. Problems for the last 14 years with pain.
                              Something I feel deeply,"Life is like money,you can spend it anyway you wish, but can only spend it once.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by hdugger View Post
                                I'm not certain I understand that. What adult with a pre-surgical curve and in some pain *wouldn't* try an alternative method?
                                One who had tried several other alternatives without success.
                                Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                                Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

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