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Thread: What is SOSORT up to lately?

  1. #1
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    What is SOSORT up to lately?

    Preliminary program for their 2010 meeting...

    http://www.saac.chu-sainte-justine.o...m_SosortV3.pdf

    I think the "Mark W. Mornings" is a misprint of Mark W. Morningstar, evidence-based chiro guy.

    Lenke is apparently talking.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  2. #2
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    That's interesting, I thought Mark Morningstar was something to do with the Clear Institute, but it looks like he works with the Pettibon Institute instead. Does anyone know the difference between the two please? There must be a difference because one of them was suing the other a while back.

  3. #3
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    It's interesting that, despite the pending law suit, that Morningstar and the Clear chiros are cordial and publish together.

    The main difference I see is that Morningstar is claiming to be evidence-based but Clear is not.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #4
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    Has anyone seen Clear's latest newsletter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by joyfull View Post
    Has anyone seen Clear's latest newsletter?
    I haven't. Is there something interesting to discuss in it?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #6
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    Dr. Morningstar works with my entire family and is wonderful. My understanding is that Pettibon and CLEAR are similar, but that Pettibon emphasizes more long-term work and effect than CLEAR (no 2 week clinics or anything), but I'm not totally clear, so I emailed the link to Dr.Morningstar and am hoping he'll expand a bit on this forum.
    Tina

    • Mom of Cynthia, age 8, 67 degree curve, former Spinecor Patient and current Cheneau Brace wearer
    • Mom of Vaughn, age 5, 18 degree curve - not yet braced, but closely monitored
    • Wife of Andy, adult with 26 degree curve, diagnosed as a teenager, no bracing or surgery

    www.scoliosisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com
    www.EmBracedInComfort.com

  7. #7
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    It's also interesting to see that Weiss is absent. Even if he will attend but isn't presenting, that is still somewhat uncharacteristic.

    On a total side note, whenever I see Manuel Rigo's name I always say it in the voice of the character from Ghostbusters II that Peter MacNicol played.

    "He is Vigo! You are like the buzzing of flies to him! "

    It's an obscure reference. And I know it's Rigo and not Vigo. Doesn't make it any less funny for me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    It's also interesting to see that Weiss is absent. Even if he will attend but isn't presenting, that is still somewhat uncharacteristic.

    On a total side note, whenever I see Manuel Rigo's name I always say it in the voice of the character from Ghostbusters II that Peter MacNicol played.

    "He is Vigo! You are like the buzzing of flies to him! "

    It's an obscure reference. And I know it's Rigo and not Vigo. Doesn't make it any less funny for me.
    I like your sense of humor. Sardonic.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by skevimc View Post
    It's also interesting to see that Weiss is absent. Even if he will attend but isn't presenting, that is still somewhat uncharacteristic.

    On a total side note, whenever I see Manuel Rigo's name I always say it in the voice of the character from Ghostbusters II that Peter MacNicol played.

    "He is Vigo! You are like the buzzing of flies to him! "

    It's an obscure reference. And I know it's Rigo and not Vigo. Doesn't make it any less funny for me.
    Hans R. Weiss MD . Orthopedic Surgeon , and Physical Medicine Rehabilitation is in his new clinic offering to patients from abroad his " Best Practice " and Physio-logic program in Gensingen , Germany.
    www.scoliosis-dr-weiss.com
    BT

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beatriz Torres View Post
    Hans R. Weiss MD . Orthopedic Surgeon , and Physical Medicine Rehabilitation is in his new clinic offering to patients from abroad his " Best Practice " and Physio-logic program in Gensingen , Germany.
    www.scoliosis-dr-weiss.com
    Someone from Europe came on here and said Schroth was still a fringe treatment even in Germany. And it's been around ~90 years.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Someone from Europe came on here and said Schroth was still a fringe treatment even in Germany. And it's been around ~90 years.
    Its still there. Horray!!!
    I think one of the reasons it is "fringe" is because when some one decides to do that program, they must be totally committed and dedicated to the process. Most people are not up to the challenge. They want the easiest way to deal with "the problem." It is easy to give up when things are challenging and "hard". For many it is easier to have someone "fix" the problem.
    The Schroth method of Physical Therapy for Scoliosis is sound in theory and practice, intuitive, individually applied and yet rigorous in its foundation. It helps scoliotic patients function better, even if the curves are not entirely straightened out. There is no claim that it cures scoliosis, but it does improve function and posture. (Look at the images in the book.) This kind of a program demands from the participants total involvement and responsibility for the results. Only a certain number of people with scoliosis will succeed with the program because it is too hard for a greater number of patients.

    Which sounds more enticing? Do exercises for the rest of your life to maintain or reduce the curves, or get a brace for a couple of years and then be done, or have surgery and not have to worry about it for the rest of your life? And then what do the long term outcome studies show?

    Why do you think Schroth exercise program is not a viable and good way of approaching non-surgical intervention? Lack of appropriate studies and statistics only means that the studies haven't been funded and/or done. It doesn't mean that the work is not valid, successful, or a good alternative.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofbamboo View Post
    Most people are not up to the challenge.
    Do they tell you this BEFORE you commit and write the check or after you commit and write the check? Do they tell people the actual attrition rate of people who couldn't keep up with the program? You say "most" can't do it. What if it s 90%? Should they tell people that up front or not?

    There is no claim that it cures scoliosis[...]
    I think this will come as news to some folks.

    Only a certain number of people with scoliosis will succeed with the program because it is too hard for a greater number of patients.
    What is that number that succeed? Is it 10%? More or less?

    Which sounds more enticing? Do exercises for the rest of your life to maintain or reduce the curves,
    Are they admitting that you have to exercise the rest of your life? Or do they claim for kids at least that using Schroth and perhaps a brace through the growth spurt is sufficient and the exercises can then be stopped? I think it will come as news to some that they say you have to exercise the rest of your life. I doubt a single person would sign up if they said that. What if you can't exercise due to illness? Do you lose all the benefits (and all the money)?

    Why do you think Schroth exercise program is not a viable and good way of approaching non-surgical intervention? Lack of appropriate studies and statistics only means that the studies haven't been funded and/or done. It doesn't mean that the work is not valid, successful, or a good alternative.
    Well, look at the points upthread. But also if something has been around for ~90 years and worked, don't you think there would be oodles of evidence on their website, it would spread by word of mouth alone, it would be the most popular treatment, and surgery would be a thing of the past? We don't obtain those results though. I'm skeptical.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I think it will come as news to some that they say you have to exercise the rest of your life. I doubt a single person would sign up if they said that. What if you can't exercise due to illness? Do you lose all the benefits (and all the money)?
    Raising hand in proxy for my son - yes, he'd be willing to a bit of exercise every day in order to maintain his curve. I think, when we had a show of hands earlier, there were several (including Linda and Pam) who would have been willing to do up to 1/2 hour of exercise a day if it both held the curve and reduced the pain.

    On the effects of illness, I think we can only hypothesize. My hypothesis is that, if the exercise holds the curve, then having to stop exercise would start the curve progression at that point. So, if you had a 50-something degree curve and you'd held that for 10 years, then stopping exercise would put you back on that gradual 1 degree a year progression (assuming that, for some reason, you could never start exercising again). Assuming you *could* start exercising again, you'd halt the progression again at whatever point you re-started the exercise.

    But, this is obviously hypothetical. It's *possible* (although I don't know by what mechanism) that your curve would be silently progressing all the while you were exercising and then, when you stopped after 10 years, you would already be 10 degrees further along. Again, I can't figure out what physiological mechanism would cause this to happen, but I have to consider it as a possibility.

  14. #14
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    In my daughter's case, no one ever said, or even remotely suggested that Schroth would cure her scoliosis. I have never heard of any Schroth patient receiving this advice. So, really, hearing this would be much more surprising to me than being told Schroth is not a cure.

    Since my daughter is braced, and many adolescent Schroth patients are, there is no way to tell what Schroth has done versus bracing; she did have a 8-10 degree reduction. However, over the last 6 months she has hardly done any Schroth; not only does her back look worse, but she has been a bit out of breath during exercise. It was always made clear to us that in order to maintain a reduction, decent posture, and normal lung function, she would have to continue Schroth (most importantly after bracing terminates) for the rest of her life. I do not know if all Schroth patients receive this advice, but considering the magnitude of my daughter's curve (now 60T), it was the advice we heard. I imagine kids with greater reduction who get below a certain degrees, would not have to exercise their entire lives. Schroth is hard to keep up. But, for those who chose to, I highly suggest it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    Raising hand in proxy for my son - yes, he'd be willing to a bit of exercise every day in order to maintain his curve. I think, when we had a show of hands earlier, there were several (including Linda and Pam) who would have been willing to do up to 1/2 hour of exercise a day if it both held the curve and reduced the pain.
    That rings a bell. And that assumes 1/2 a day will hold the curve which is hypothetical only at this point. I would not doubt it would make a big dent in the pain though. So the question is with the evidence case IN HAND, would Linda, Pam or the others embark on it (prior to their surgery of course). I question that anyone would do that NOW.

    On the effects of illness, I think we can only hypothesize. My hypothesis is that, if the exercise holds the curve, then having to stop exercise would start the curve progression at that point. So, if you had a 50-something degree curve and you'd held that for 10 years, then stopping exercise would put you back on that gradual 1 degree a year progression (assuming that, for some reason, you could never start exercising again). Assuming you *could* start exercising again, you'd halt the progression again at whatever point you re-started the exercise.

    But, this is obviously hypothetical. It's *possible* (although I don't know by what mechanism) that your curve would be silently progressing all the while you were exercising and then, when you stopped after 10 years, you would already be 10 degrees further along. Again, I can't figure out what physiological mechanism would cause this to happen, but I have to consider it as a possibility.[/QUOTE]

    I guess the main problem is we don't even know if consistent Schroth can hold off progression even though it probably helps pain.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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