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  • #31
    No, you are not rambling. I have not heard of these techniques. If, in the case of an adult, the spine could be loosened, as I believe mine was, then a brace just might work! So many are quick to say you are done growing so bracing is pointless. Well, yes it is, IF you are only using the brace to stabilize a growing spine. BUT, to loosen a stiff spine, brace it, then tighten it back up sounds like we might be on to something here. I would venture to say that it would be VERY difficult to find a "team" of doctors knowledgeable enough and willing enough to work together to try this approach, at least for those of us in the general population. I might mention it to my doctors anyway, just so I can hear them laugh at me.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

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    • #32
      My chiropractor makes no claims, and says that for scoliosis, the Dr. has to be gentle. I have let him adjust me (and I get a massage thrown in also, for the one co-pay!) and really I just go for the massage, but I trust him with the "gentle" cracks (just 3). I showed him my x-ray. Anyway... for what that's worth. I used to go regularly but then moved further away, and then a few years later found out my curve had worsened, so I wondered if that was the culprit, but recently I've gone back that one time- seems no harm done. I may continue once a month or so.
      34L at diagnosis; Boston Brace 1979
      Current: 50L, 28T

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      • #33
        Well, I went back to my chiropractor. She did adjustments on my curves and my neck but left the lumbar region alone. I think with the possibility of a fracture, she doesn't want to risk it. It didn't send me into spasms like I was afraid would happen, but I did get pain in different areas than I have been fighting for the last month or so. I just figure, if it helps with the pain, even though the curve may be increasing from it, I am okay with it. I would like to have the surgery because I truly believe the pain is coming from the curves. This way maybe I can get my surgery sooner. I may be repeating myself here. Sorry if I am.

        One thing about my chiropractor that I really like is the fact that she feels the muscles around the area she is going to adjust. If there are ANY muscle spasms there at all, she will not even attempt to adjust until she has massaged the spasm out. Well, with one exception. She went after my neck once and it didn't budge but hurt like the dicken's! She then spent about 10 minutes massaging it and THEN got good adjustment there. It sent very strong nerve shocks down both arms, which was quite disturbing. Made me nervouse. I'm always afraid of getting paralyzed. There are definitely risks involved with chiropractic care. I think I had to sign a waiver saying that I wouldn't sue her if there was damage done, since it is the nature of therapy that accidents can happen. I don't think I will be taking my son back to see her, though.
        Be happy!
        We don't know what tomorrow brings,
        but we are alive today!

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        • #34
          Chiro's dirty secret - neck cracking and stroke

          http://www.chirobase.org/

          Dangers

          * Chiropractic's Dirty Secret: Neck Manipulation and Strokes (link to another site)
          * Canadian Neurologists Warn against Neck Manipulation (posted 3/13/02)
          * Coroner's Jury Concludes That Neck Manipulation Killed Canadian Woman (posted 1/22/04)
          * Malpractice Is an Inevitable Result of Chiropractic Philosophy and Training (1979) (posted 11/7/98)
          * Neck911USA.com (link to information about neck manipulation)
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #35
            Pooka1,
            I think your logic is working! If I won't take my son back, why would I go???? The arm thing scared me pretty bad and she didn't even seem phased by it. Hmmmm......
            Be happy!
            We don't know what tomorrow brings,
            but we are alive today!

            Comment


            • #36
              So many people swear by chiro's though. Why, if they are causing more harm than good. Why would insurance companies even touch them?
              Be happy!
              We don't know what tomorrow brings,
              but we are alive today!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                So many people swear by chiro's though. Why, if they are causing more harm than good. Why would insurance companies even touch them?
                There are honest chiros and insurance should cover them as massage therapists. There is nothing unique to chiro that other physical therapists don't do despite their claims. Thus they can help people with short-term issues. I was helped a bit during my herniated disc episode by an honest chiro who admitted the pain would go away when the vertebra fused on their own whether or not I came in for treatment. Insurance should pay for these short-term, very limited uses of chiro.

                Chiros should be disallowed by law to treat scoliosis in kids and should be heavily discouraged from treating scoliosis in adults.
                Last edited by Pooka1; 04-04-2010, 02:30 PM.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                  Pooka1,
                  I think your logic is working! If I won't take my son back, why would I go???? The arm thing scared me pretty bad and she didn't even seem phased by it. Hmmmm......
                  By the way, it's not my logic and I'm not trying to "work" this forum.

                  The facts speak for themselves.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    She did say something to me that kind of bothered me. She said, that she wished that she could have gotten her hands on me thirty years ago, but that was before they learned that chiropractic could cure scoliosis. As far as I know they have always claimed to be able to cure any disease - if they were "true" followers of the inventor of chiropractic (I can't remember the guys name for some reason). I have had so many chiropractors and D.O.'s tell me that they could cure me. I NEVER believed any of that, except when I was 16 and super gullible. I pretty much go to her because it feels good to get the knots rubbed out and popped. I know a lot of people that crunch each other, which a chiro will tell you NEVER to do. However, when they work on you it is also "blindly". I was upset at my chirpractor for attempting to adjust my lower back several times when I told her I fell on ice, because she didn't take an x-ray or anything and only made it feel worse. She doesn't touch it now that the doctor said it could be fractured. There are a lot of red flags there, but so are there with any chiropractor or D.O. that I've been to. There is a very popular D.O. here that I remember going to a seminar to learn to specifically treat scoliosis. It never made sense to me. So all in all, I guess when I go it is for the massage relief, which I am teaching my daughter to do at home.
                    The shooting nerve sensation down my arms REALLY scared me and still does. But I guess not enough to keep me from going back. She does seem to give me relief with those painful muscle spasms and headaches. I suppose I should have told her I was upset for trying to adjust my lower back. Open communication is the best if anyone is going to have a good relationship with his or her doctor. I will ask the neurosurgeon and the pain doctor about continuing with chiropractic when I see them on the 8th. I want to feel better, but I don't want to be crippled either. I have always had mixed feelings about chiropractic. I told mine right to her face when I started seeing her that I would give it one more shot, but have always felt it was quackery. Kind of straight forward but she took it well and has worked very hard with me.
                    I hope you don't really think that I think you are trying to work the frorum into getting people to go along with your ideas, because I don't. I just said that because this has ALWAYS been a questionable topic to me, and when I hear a strong argument either way it really can sway me to some degree, because I'm not staunch in my belief in it one way or the other. I'm sure no one else feels that way about you either. You are just as concerned about others as the rest of us are. You just happened to be strong in your convictions about this therapy, and have taken the time to educate yourself on it, which is what I SHOULD be doing as well. I appreciate your information.
                    Be happy!
                    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                    but we are alive today!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Pooka1, see your private message.

                      The Chiropractor guy's name is Palmer. I don't know why I can never remember that!
                      Be happy!
                      We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                      but we are alive today!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
                        I hope you don't really think that I think you are trying to work the forum into getting people to go along with your ideas, because I don't. I just said that because this has ALWAYS been a questionable topic to me, and when I hear a strong argument either way it really can sway me to some degree, because I'm not staunch in my belief in it one way or the other. I'm sure no one else feels that way about you either. You are just as concerned about others as the rest of us are. You just happened to be strong in your convictions about this therapy, and have taken the time to educate yourself on it, which is what I SHOULD be doing as well. I appreciate your information.
                        Hey no problem! I responded to your PM and thanks for sending it by the way.

                        My posts are too factual for many around here. It took me a while to realize that some folks don't want to know the straight dope sometimes. Some react with ignoring me and some are quickly persuaded. I don't think either of those reactions is appropriate for those seeking facts.

                        My intention is just to make folks think FOR THEMSELVES. Some folks have never done that before it seems. There have been some patently ridiculous exchanges in evidence of this.

                        Just THINK. That's my hope for folks here and everywhere. If folks would do that there would be less pseudoscience in the world.

                        You are thinking for yourself and have voiced your opinion to your chiro. That's very good! The facts about chiro are on your side in that. Chiro claims are nonsense when they go beyond massage.
                        Last edited by Pooka1; 04-04-2010, 07:50 PM.
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                          Chiros should be disallowed by law to treat scoliosis in kids and should be heavily discouraged from treating scoliosis in adults.
                          Well said! I feel particularly strong that a chiro should never touch a child with scoliosis...period.
                          mariaf305@yahoo.com
                          Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
                          Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

                          https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

                          http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Cracking back

                            Speaking of cracking backs, I am wondering if anyone else experiences cracking of their backs. I am learning new postures through practicing the exercises in the book I am using (Curves, Twists, and Bends), and from sitting on my balance ball chair. I will ask my Dr. in a few weeks but I thought I'd throw it out here (and in case I forget to ask him)- I am constantly hearing cracks, as I pull up out of my curves, now that I am able to stretch out of them somewhat. As I push out of my left lumbar curve, I hear my back crack all the way up, from lumbar, to thoracic, to neck, and lastly, my jaw readjusts. I am wondering if this is at all harmful. Thanks....
                            34L at diagnosis; Boston Brace 1979
                            Current: 50L, 28T

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Fact based? Come on Pooka1, the last time you promoted "fact based" points you did not have any facts. You should be careful telling members you are using facts to base your comments/opinions. They may actually start to believe you and trust you.

                              The last time we discussed this I mentioned that 100,000-200,000 people die each year due to medical errors. I don't know but I would guess that a much smaller number die per year from chiropractic care.

                              I have used chiropractors since I was 16. Relocating my shoulders, fixing a pinched nerve in my hip, removing the pain from migraine headaches, etc. My 14 year old son complained for a couple years of his hip hurting. I took him to an pediatric orthopedic for x-rays (always my first trip). They said nothing was wrong with him. My son continued to complain, especially when playing soccer. I went to a chiropractor and he offered to check my son and showed me how one leg was shorter than another, due to his hip be out of place. He did his adjustment, my son felt a "pop" by his hip, and has never complained again. Would I use this chiropractor for my daughter? NO. But I would consider a chiropractor that is trained in the methods that I believe are worth trying (i.e. Schroth, Pettibon, SpineCor, etc.)

                              I agree it is important to find an honest chiropractor (and medical doctor). But unfortunately there is no listing for honest vs dishonest chiropractors as well as medical doctors, except those expressed by patients.

                              Regarding children with scoliosis. Sorry, Maria, you know I am not going to agree with you. Many (maybe most) orthopedic surgeons feel that bracing does not work (very similar to chiropractors) and so they recommend letting scoliosis take its natural course until surgery is required at approximately 30-35 degrees for stapling, or 35-45 degrees for stapling and growing rod (hybrid rod), or 45+ degrees for growing rods (if not mature skeleton) or spinal fusion for mature skeleton. And in some cases, growing rods until they mature and then spinal fusion.

                              Many of us are not yet willing to give up on non-surgical methods which include bracing and physical therapy. Bracing (hard or flexible) is done with an orthotist or a chiropractor (flexible brace only).

                              When it comes to physical therapy: Schroth, Pettibon, etc or exercises like Pilates, Yoga, etc. we are all still hoping that these will work, and willing to try them to avoid surgery. What is the risk of using these methods? Dr. Betz, Dr. Durrani, and other orthopedic surgeons do not see a risk in these methods. The do not feel they will help, but also do not feel they will hurt.

                              So, who performs Schroth and Pettibon? Who provides the SpineCor flexible brace (which was recommended by Children's Hospital pediatric orthopedic surgeon and supported by Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani for my daughter to wear part-time)? Primarily physical therapists (for Schroth) and Chiropractors for Pettibon and SpineCor (and some chiropractors are now getting trained in Schroth). So, if you want to try one of these non-surgical methods, who are you supposed to see?

                              When my daughter sees a chiropractor he/she does not focus on spinal/neck adjustments. They don't "crack her neck". They use methods that have shown some positive results to decrease the curve. Does it work for everyone? No. Neither does bracing. Neither does surgery.

                              And let's not forget, we have orthopedic surgeons, like Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani, putting nickel, titanium, stainless steel, etc. implants into our children and they are not sure of the long term affects. When Dr. Betz did stapling on children with curves over 35 degrees he was experimenting. He was "hoping" it would work, turns out it did not work for some. So these children had to have a growing rod (hybrid rod) installed and are now subject to surgeries every 6 months. This could be 10-15 surgeries for a child. Every surgery puts a child at risk.

                              Let's all keep an open mind that neither the medical doctors, physical therapists, or chiropractors have the solution. And, spinal fusion, unfortunately, in my mind, is the absolute last solution, but it is the only surgical method recommended by the Scoliosis Research Society (SRS). As we have discussed the SRS does not recommend vertebrae body stapling and it does not recommend the flexible brace. Does this mean they are not effective? Only time will tell. But I see chiropractors and orthopedic surgeons experimenting on our children.

                              Until our children are required to have surgery, like my daughter Syd, we are going to pursue non-surgical methods. And, the path to these non-surgical methods will lead us to physical therapists as well as chiropractors.

                              So, let's not condemn the chiropractors, but only condemn the bad chiropractors and condemn the bad orthopedic surgeons (and other medical professionals).

                              With Dr. Betz and Shriners Hospital, we have found good ones! But it is not without trial & error for many of us. Dr. Betz was the 3rd orthopedic surgeon in our journey and Dr. Durrani is our 4th.

                              OK. Sorry, could not sit back and once again read the chiropractor bashing. I have no invested interest other than to provide the idea that we should be well educated in our decision making and we should be open to new ideas. I could very easily claim that my daughter reached 36 degrees (from 23) by following the advice of the first orthopedic surgeon to do nothing (watch it) and then following the advice of the second orthopedic surgeon to do nothing after he did not recognize the curve had progressed because the x-ray was improperly taken. It was a chiropractor that initially recognized the x-ray was wrong and diagnosed Syd with a 36 degree curve (and confirmed by orthopedic surgeons 3 and 4). Was this medical incompetence? What if we would had braced her at 23? She may be below 20 or below 15 today. But now we are fighting a 36 degree curve. I am very thankful to the competence of the chiropractor who knew how to take and read an x-ray properly.

                              The emphasis should be on finding the "good one" who is practicing the non-surgical methods for scoliosis that each of us believe in. Let's not get wrapped up in who performs it. If you do not like the "spinal/neck cracking" then just tell your chiropractor you are interested in specific methods and not in their spinal adjustments. Just like we tell a medical doctor we are interested in trying bracing before surgery.

                              And again, what about the 100,000-200,000 deaths per year due to medical errors? The medical field is full of incompetence and a bad medical professional (surgeon, nurse, etc.) is probably just as likely, or maybe more likely, to negatively impact your child's health or life, than that of a chiropractor.

                              Michael

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                              • #45
                                My insurance covers chiropractic care but not massage therapy. As far as chiropractic bashing, everyone is entitiled to their opinions. However, there are many very scientific things that are discovered by what starts out to be folklore. Chiropractic, definitely seems to have its roots in what I think are some pretty shady beliefs, but it works for some people.

                                People used to "believe" in spontaneous generation, that flies were produced by rotting meat. That was considered FACT until someone actually covered the meat and saw that the flies were coming and laying eggs on the cloth covering the meat. Is this irrelevant? No. Things are believed and tried out to see if it holds true. It's the scientific method. The problem that many see with chiropractic is that no one seems to be able to "prove" that subluxations exist. We either don't have the technology or the smarts to prove it, or it really doesn't exist and some other force is at play here. We know that some chiropractors get good results for some things, like my sprained ankle mentioned earlier. What exactly was the mode of action that made it work? I don't know. It wasn't the placebo effect, because I didn't think she would do anything but make it worse. Something took place in there. On the flip side, my scoliosis got worse after a year and a half of treatments. What happened in there? No one knows.

                                I think this whole argument can be argued until people are blue in the face. The FACTS are that we don't know how chiropractic works because no one can figure out what happens when a joint pops. I do believe that there is some placebo effect for people who chronically go in with aches and pains, but hey, MD's play upon this phenomenon as well. Maybe some day someone will come up with a way to figure this all out. Until then, let us do what helps us. For me, sprained ankles, YES. Scoliosis, NO. Sorry, I just feel that this message thread has helped to enlighten me. Until I find out how it works, I think I'll hold off for now.

                                Michael - you had a good point with the MD's doing the same thing. We all just need to be balanced. A therapy that works for one person, may not work for another, be it medical or chiropractic or whatever.

                                I see there are some heated views here that have obviously been discussed before. Like I said before. I didn't mean to open a can of worms this BIG.
                                Be happy!
                                We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                                but we are alive today!

                                Comment

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