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  • #16
    Originally posted by rohrer01 View Post
    Even though I have my doubts about chiropractic. I must say in their defense. They go through just as much schooling as an MD. I have a BS in Cell and Molecular Biology (a one-up on the pre-meds). There were those in my major going on to colleges of Chiropractic. They study the human body very in depth and do a LOT of cadaver work, just like MD's.
    They may go through as much schooling but what does it take to gain admittance?

    http://www.chirobase.org/03Edu/adm.html

    It is hard to believe the chiro students are performing at the same level as the medical students based on this information.

    This is a HUGE reason why only board certified pediatric orthopedic surgeons experienced with scoliosis cases would be treating children with scoliosis.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #17
      Very interesting information regarding chiropractors admission requirements. Thanks for sharing.

      It looks like for medical doctors and chiropractors, they are both required to have a 2.5 but for medical doctors the average GPA is around 3.7 (for some schools I found), with 95% of them being above a 3.2 GPA. And for some chiropractor schools (the ones I found) only 25% were above a 3.5 with the average closer to 3.0-3.5.

      Next time I go to a chiropractor I will be concerned whether he or she was the 2.5 student or the 3.5 student. I guess we can conclude that there are some chiropractors who are smarter and more disciplined than some medical doctors, but much harder to find.

      Comment


      • #18
        The average minimum GPA required for chiro school is 2.38. That's like a "C."

        The average GPA admitted is 2.90. So assuming a normal distribution around that number, about HALF of those admitted had a GPA of < 2.90. That means half had a GPA < "C+."

        There is no damn way I would be comfortable taking my kid to a chiro given that. Not even for free.

        YMMV.
        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

        No island of sanity.

        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
        Answer: Medicine


        "We are all African."

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by michael1960 View Post
          Very interesting information regarding chiropractors admission requirements. Thanks for sharing.

          It looks like for medical doctors and chiropractors, they are both required to have a 2.5 but for medical doctors the average GPA is around 3.7 (for some schools I found), with 95% of them being above a 3.2 GPA. And for some chiropractor schools (the ones I found) only 25% were above a 3.5 with the average closer to 3.0-3.5.

          Next time I go to a chiropractor I will be concerned whether he or she was the 2.5 student or the 3.5 student. I guess we can conclude that there are some chiropractors who are smarter and more disciplined than some medical doctors, but much harder to find.
          I don't know where you are getting these numbers. Can you post the source? Is it a chiro college or association? We have already seen fallacious numbers from chiro associations.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #20
            I never went to a back crusher....I would just shy away and turn the other direction when I would hear anything about asking about my back. I knew I had the best dr in the country working with me so I wasn't worried about that end of it. A chiropractor couldn't do much more if I had the world's best dr working with me (Dr. Lenke in St. Louis).
            Rita Thompson
            Age 46
            Milwaukee Brace wearer for 3 years in childhood
            Surgery Mar 1st - 95 degree thoracic curve
            Surgery by Dr. Lenke, St. Louis, MO
            Post-surgery curve 25-30 degree

            Comment


            • #21
              You should know that I would not use some fallacious numbers from some chiro association. By the way the information your referenced came from a journal whose purpose is dedicated to the advancement of chiropractic health care. Also, it is from 1997 (13 yr. old study), most of the colleges require a 2.5 like medical doctors. However, the average GPA is much greater for medical doctors. I don't think I ever questioned that point.

              I also noticed that when some chiro sites use 13 yr. old medical studies to discuss all the bad surgeries from the 80s and 90s we discredit them, but then we use a 13 yr. old chiropractic study, it is ok.

              I pulled my data from the first internet site I found from a chiropractic college campus (Palmer) presenting pre-admisison GPAs. I grabbed data from the first campus on the list for a 2008 quarter.

              2.5-3.0 28
              3.0-3.5 40
              3.5-4.0 22

              I put the average at the middle section since 28 below and 22 above. Probably would had been more accurate to be 3.0-3.25, something like that. It is hard to tell since we do not have actual data. If you look at my points, I did not question any of your findings. Only said it was very interesting.

              Except, that we all have to assume that some chiropractors are smarter than medical doctors!

              By the way, what is the reason for 100,000-200,000 medical deaths per year due to medical errors? That is a lot of people dying from medical incompetence!

              Always enjoy the conversations on chiropractors vs medical doctors.

              Thanks

              Comment


              • #22
                Ouch! I didn't mean to open a can of worms this large. They all have their places. I did go to my chiropractor today and talked to her about my progression and possible surgery. They teach in chiropractic schools that they can "cure" scoliosis. I didn't argue the point with her. I did say that I wondered if the loosening of my thoracic spine could have sped up the progression that would have happened anyway. She agreed that there was no way to know for sure (which I feel is a humble statement). She said she never advocates surgery, however I have tried every conservative thing out there and am just one of those rare cases. She said that she hoped it helped me and was still willing to help with the non-fused regions of my spine when I'm done. She also adjusts other body parts. I sprained my ankle and she did a wonderful job making it feel better.

                I guess, when I was at university, I was surprised to see that a young man sitting next to me in organic chemistry (and definitely seemed smarter than me and I am in the 3.5 - 4.0 range with honors) was studying to be a chiropractor. I guess it changed my view a bit, since I had bad experiences as a younger person, so assumed that they were not educated. I realized that they are educated. We must realize that whatever the profession a person chooses, SOMEONE always comes in LAST in their class. On the contrary, SOMEONE always comes in FIRST, too.

                I think chiropractic has its place, just not with every spine. So my final word of caution is choose your healthcare wisely. If you choose chiropractic and see improvement, then maybe you are one that it works for. If no improvement, don't do it. If you choose not to go the route of a chiropractor, be careful and select a doctor from the SRS. I have had bad experiences with MD quackery, DO quackery and Chiropractic quackery. There are good and bad ones of all sorts out there. My personal feelings for sure are to stick with the standards of the Scoliosis Research Society. They seem to have the best.

                Sorry if I upset anyone. Not my intention at all.
                Be happy!
                We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                but we are alive today!

                Comment


                • #23
                  I'd like to put my 2 cents in here also. I've been having chiropractic care regularly for the last eight years, and in the last eight years my scoliosis curves progressed rapidly. Also being a licensed massage therapist, I am amazed at the amount of times that chiropracters bring you in and adjust you without having the person massaged first. The tissue should be warmed up and made more pliable by a massage therapist first who would work in the chiropractors office, and then you should be adjusted. But most chiropractors that I've worked with, adjust first - that is not good.
                  Lynette - 44 years old.

                  Pre-surgery thoracic 55 degrees
                  Pre-surgery lumbar 85 degrees

                  Post-surgery thoracic 19 degrees
                  Post-surgery lumbar 27 degrees

                  Surgery April 1st 2010.

                  Posterior spinal fusion from T9 to sacrum.
                  Dr. Cronen at University Community Hospital - Tampa, FL.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    ...and maybe having things "speed-up" may not sound good. A progressive scoliosis is never a good thing. I look at it in this positive light. I have ALWAYS had pain and NOTHING ever really helped with flare-up except heavy meds. Exercise reduced the frequency of flare-ups but not the pain involved. My curve was always too small to do anything about. Now, because of a "bad" thing, I may be able to get it fixed. It's kind of a paradox, don't you think? I am really hoping that I can finally have surgery and get some relief. Thank you all for sharing your heartfelt feelings on the matter. I hope you all have a GREAT night.

                    I wish I knew 10 years ago what I know now. My daughter was diagnosed with scoliosis at about age 11. Our GP sent her to an ortho doctor who measured her curves in the teens or low 20's - I can't remember now. At her last visit at about age 12, he told her she was done growing and her curve was so mild it would never progress and he wouldn't even consider it scoliosis. Stupid me believed him. Now I can't even get her to consider getting it checked, just to have a baseline. She says, "I don't have scoliosis." I can see her curve, but it does not hurt her. She says if her back ever hurts, then she'll get it checked. I can understand not wanting to be exposed to the x-rays, but a baseline from a legitimate specialist isn't going to hurt her (for crying out loud, she has insurance that will cover 100%!). She's 20 years old, so I can't make her decisions for her anymore. I just should have informed myself better is all. At least, from this discussion, she says she's not going to go to the chiropractor as much. She doesn't think they should treat scoliosis. That's what she recently told me anyway.
                    Be happy!
                    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                    but we are alive today!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'm reminded of the old joke: What do you a call a person who graduates last in his class at medical school?

                      Doctor. (The same could be said of chiropractors, of course.)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        AHHHHHH!!!
                        Be happy!
                        We don't know what tomorrow brings,
                        but we are alive today!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by joyfull View Post
                          I'm reminded of the old joke: What do you a call a person who graduates last in his class at medical school?

                          Doctor. (The same could be said of chiropractors, of course.)
                          That's a good one. I have used it.

                          Yeah but in this case, the person who graduates last in his class at the worse medical school is likely miles ahead of the person who graduates last in his class at the best chiro school.

                          There are honest competent chiros. But those are not the ones claiming to be able to treat scoliosis in kids and adults.
                          Last edited by Pooka1; 03-30-2010, 04:53 PM.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            As with any Doctor, the difference between different Chiropractors is very vast. Some adjust you right when you walk in the door, some use diagnostic techniques to see if you need adjusting. We've found a great Chiropractor, who also practices the Pettibon technique. Both my kids have scoliosis, but I see him, too (btw, chiropractors have helped me IMMENSELY, but I don't have Scoliosis, so I don't apply to this "debate") Anyway, my children are rarely ever adjusted because their hips are in alignment when they go in - as long as they are balanced, he just has them do their therapy (involving weights placed strategically on the body to retrain the body's way of holding itself). I feel he uses a lot more evidence and science to back up his work and he always takes the time to discuss why he does things (we discuss the physics, as I'm an Engineer and value that type of discussion). Anyway, just my 2 Cents worth. We use a balanced approach of bracing, Pettibon/Chiropractic, and soon Schroth.
                            Tina

                            • Mom of Cynthia, age 8, 67 degree curve, former Spinecor Patient and current Cheneau Brace wearer
                            • Mom of Vaughn, age 5, 18 degree curve - not yet braced, but closely monitored
                            • Wife of Andy, adult with 26 degree curve, diagnosed as a teenager, no bracing or surgery

                            www.scoliosisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com
                            www.EmBracedInComfort.com

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that we go to one of the top Pediatric Orthopedists in our State - also part of our balanced approach.
                              Tina

                              • Mom of Cynthia, age 8, 67 degree curve, former Spinecor Patient and current Cheneau Brace wearer
                              • Mom of Vaughn, age 5, 18 degree curve - not yet braced, but closely monitored
                              • Wife of Andy, adult with 26 degree curve, diagnosed as a teenager, no bracing or surgery

                              www.scoliosisfamilyadventures.wordpress.com
                              www.EmBracedInComfort.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Tina

                                I want to compliment you on your multi-disciplinary approach to scoliosis. Maybe it is an engineer thing. I am an engineer from school and we have done many of the same things. We are doing some Pettibon therapy, recently learned some Schroth exercises, utilizing the SpineCor brace and Boston brace. And investigating our VBS options.

                                We have seen 4 different pediatric orthopedic surgeons and 3 different chiropractors. I am always looking for the common treatments or suggestions within the orthopedic surgeons and within the chiropractors, and common treatments/suggestions across all of them. We have narrowed it down to 2 pediatric orthopedic surgeons and 1 chiropractor that we are working with at this time.

                                Our experience working with the chiropractor is much more about physical therapy/exercise than spinal/neck adjustments. While most orthopedic surgeons we have worked with do not recommend physical therapy/exercise, most have commented that it will not hurt. And even within the orthopedic surgeons one will recommend a brace and the other will not recommend it.

                                The one chiropractor that we have worked with the most supports the Clear method, Pettibon method, and SpineCor brace. As I look back to our therapy it is more Pettibon than anything else, including all of the home exercises.

                                I respect the approach that you are taking.

                                I too have been very involved in trying to fully understand how it all works, but I do get a bit confused when I see common treatments/suggestions contradict each other. For example, the muscles around the spine. Which ones should be stretched vs which ones should be strengthened? I hear several different "theories" on it.

                                In some cases some of the work that we have done with the chiropractor has resulted in loosening up the spine, which resulted in a greater curve, but then 6-8 weeks later, the increased curve was reduced and then improved compared to when we started. So, what role does "loosening up the spine" play in helping or hurting the curve progression. Does it make a brace more effective? No research studies available for that (or wearing two braces).

                                Sorry for the rambling. Thanks for sharing with us everything you are doing.

                                Thank You

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