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Dealing with BLATANT Chiro misinformation 101

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  • Dealing with BLATANT Chiro misinformation 101

    Goldfinch is a zen master at this! 1,000 kudos and I genuflect in Goldfinch's general direction.

    http://www.fixscoliosis.com/forum/th...8-Measurements

    It is one Emily Litella moment after the next on there. They should have a sticky where they can post "Nevermind" posts.

    It's like they are in a parallel universe, blind to what is really happening on the scientific front of scoliosis, imagining patently absurd scenarios, reinventing wheels, etc. etc.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  • #2
    It's a productive discussion. Goldfinch - good teacher :-)

    Most of us have at least something to learn?

    Comment


    • #3
      Why should they rely on a random poster to edify them on basic facts about how surgeons work? Why don't they know this and why are they speculating wildly and wrongly?

      They clearly assume surgeons are idiots and that they know better.

      They really need an Emily Litella icon over there.
      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

      No island of sanity.

      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
      Answer: Medicine


      "We are all African."

      Comment


      • #4
        Everyone knows you can't really diagnose the problem without a hair analysis. Duh!
        Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
        Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
          Everyone knows you can't really diagnose the problem without a hair analysis. Duh!
          Excellent point!

          I suspect chiros play, "Find the subluxation" like the rest of us play Twister.
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            Why should they rely on a random poster to edify them on basic facts about how surgeons work? Why don't they know this and why are they speculating wildly and wrongly?

            They clearly assume surgeons are idiots and that they know better.

            They really need an Emily Litella icon over there.
            If I could answer such questions, I could probably solve a host of the world's problems .. just like Al Gore ;-)

            I'm guessing - some folks have no idea how surgeons work unless they work with them - like so many of us do. When they need to know - it's nice when someone like Goldfinch comes along and gently offers more knowledge.

            I don't think - they think - that surgeons are idiots. I really don't. Maybe sometimes, one can be so passionate about a thing - that other things get ignored. Ya know what I mean?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
              Everyone knows you can't really diagnose the problem without a hair analysis. Duh!
              Nuh -uh .. the only truly valuable diagnostic tool is - a cat scan (attached)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by mamamax View Post


                I don't think - they think - that surgeons are idiots.
                I think all they care about is misleading the public.
                Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                  I think all they care about is misleading the public.
                  While Clear is not my current method of choice - I do think the men in question here, care about helping people vs misleading the public. Looking forward to that published study about to come out. Someday - all information will come together and we'll all have the answers we've been waiting for. Till then, it's like everybody holds some small piece of the puzzle. That's all I know - ain't much huh?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                    While Clear is not my current method of choice - I do think the men in question here, care about helping people vs misleading the public. Looking forward to that published study about to come out. Someday - all information will come together and we'll all have the answers we've been waiting for. Till then, it's like everybody holds some small piece of the puzzle. That's all I know - ain't much huh?
                    We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
                    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here's what I think is going on.

                      Just as for the case of subluxations, Clear chiro wants to carve out a niche within the scoliosis field apart from the (huge) expertise that surgeons have.

                      But rather than rely on an imaginary entity like subluxations (no two chiros can point to the same spot on a radiograph where the "subluxation" is located) they seem to be playing the "diagnostic study" card.

                      How are they playing this card?

                      By ignorantly misrepresenting the huge range of issues surgeons consider and lying that they only consider Cobb angle ("Cobb's angle" for one of those guys).

                      By ignorantly thinking that speaking with patients gets you the full story on what surgeons consider in a case.

                      By lying about the range of scientific diagnostic approaches surgeons in fact use in the hopes of carving out another pseudoscientific niche in the field of scoliosis similar to subluxation and to inlcude modified handheld power tools.

                      By staying deliberately ignorant of many things so they can reinvent wheels like they were the first to think of it.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The bottom line problem is that Clear thinks they are actually competing with orthopedic surgeons on the science. They refute that themselves through their approach.
                        Last edited by Pooka1; 01-20-2010, 07:08 AM.
                        Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                        No island of sanity.

                        Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                        Answer: Medicine


                        "We are all African."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                          I'm guessing - some folks have no idea how surgeons work unless they work with them - like so many of us do.
                          Then why are they ignorantly throwing surgeons under the bus? Shouldn't they, if they are professionals in the medical field like they claim to be, NOT do that?

                          In short, shouldn't they know what the hell they are talking about before writing another ignorant publication?

                          The evidence-based chiros are the only hope for that field. What little I have read seems very competent. It does not appear that Clear is on the evidence-based bandwagon.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Since NSF was mentioned...

                            Stitzel (chiro) writes:

                            I'm not saying that any orthos in the US are performing surgery based solely on Cobb angle
                            How would he know one way one way or the other what surgeons do or don't do? I have been tangentially related to two fusions, one for each of my kids and I am very sure the surgeon shared with me only what I needed to know which wouldn't fill a thimble compared to the actual expertise he brought to those two cases. And even with that small amount of knowledge I have, as a parent who helped two daughters, I know far more than a chiro knows about surgery.

                            (and for all the NSF readers....I was intentionally using the term "Cobb's angle" to reinforce that it is simply one man's interpretation of how scoliosis should be measured).
                            So what? Lateral angels aren't going to measure themselves. It just comes off as yet another point of ignorance from a purveyor of an alternative treatment. My advice is stick with accepted terminology if you don't want to be ignored out of hand. And it is no coincidence that you can publish "Cobb's angle" in a chiro publication; Try publishing that in a medical journal.

                            I'm suggesting that some orthos may be making the initial recommendation for surgery solely based off Cobb angle.
                            How would he know what surgeons do and don't do? This is beyond absurd. Chiro is not a surgical specialty.

                            I am not trying to suggest that anybody is acting in an unprofessional or unethical manner.
                            He is suggesting that chiros can make surgical decisions on firmer ground than surgeons. Maybe they use (imaginary) subluxations.

                            I am not trying to suggest that anybody is acting in an unprofessional or unethical manner.
                            He is second guessing them on THEIR field (surgery) which is not his field by a MILE. If chiro is going to have a seat at the big table of scoliosis, they need to understand where their training ends and where the training of orthopedic surgeons starts.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              A chiro writes:

                              I'm suggesting that some orthos may be making the initial recommendation for surgery solely based off Cobb angle.
                              What's the evidence that starting the detailed analysis with Cobb angle is not good to do? What should surgeons be starting the analysis with if not lateral angle? What training does a chiro have to answer that? (None)

                              Questioning mainstream science from a non-evidence-based position is a common tactic from people who are blatantly pushing counterfactual material in other areas of science and medicine. If chiros want to be taken seriously then need to NOT use a tactic that is so closely associated with nonsense and concentrate on gathering evidence for their position instead. It's a "Look at the Wookie" approach when evidence for their own position is lacking.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment

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