The Curious Case of Martha Hawes

[mamamax]

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/pdf/1748-7161-4-27.pdf


Synopsis of her results:

Increase in height: 2 cm between 1990 and 2005

Improved pulmonary symptoms: Vital capacity in 1996 = 1.6 liters (71% predicted), 2005 = 3.99 liters (115%). Relief from respiratory symptoms including dyspnea and recurrent respiratory infection was maintained.

Improvement in torso symmetry: In 1992, there was a 12+2 cm difference between the left and right hemi-thorax at maximum inhalation, and a 10+1 cm difference at maximum exhalation. By 2005, reduction to 2+2 cm and 1 +1 cm, respectively. Rib prominence reduced from 18 +3 to 11 +2 degrees.

Increase in sagittal plane Cobb magnitude: Cobb angle of the sagittal thoracic curvature increased from 17+2 degrees in 2001 to 33+3 degrees in 2005.

Decrease in coronal plane Cobb magnitude: From 1990 through 2005 the magnitude of Cobb angle for the primary thoracic curve declined by >10 degrees.

Table 2 which shows cobb measurements (using three comparative methods) from 1990-2005 clearly shows a progressive reduction in curvatude - hdugger reports from a recent email to Martha, that she continues to maintain her correction with 1 hour of exercise daily (as is outlined in her memoir).

Table 1 outlines her methods of treatment - none of which involve 4 hours a day of exercising for years and years - a myth that I'm glad to see set to rest in this report. From 1964-1974 she used calisthenics for about 30 minutes daily; 1974-1991Calisthenics, stretching, plus aerobics (biking, jogging) 60 min daily; 1991 Deep tissue massage 60 min daily; 1992-2001 Daily home mobilization exercises (no strengthening or aerobic) + some other intermittent therapy; 2001-2005 daily mobilization, strengthening & aerobic exercise 40-50 min daily.

The work of Martha Hawes not only demonstrates that contrary to past opinion, adult curves can be reduced significantly through non surgical methods - and that reduction can be maintained.

[LindaRacine]

Until this can be reliable reproduced and verified, it's just anecdotal.

[hdugger]

But, anecdotal is good enough for a disorder which never reverses on its own. It is proof that scoliosis *can* be reversed through non-surgical means, even though there is not enough information yet to show exactly how it was reversed.

Four data points so far. Still looking for more.

[Pooka1]

I don't think we can say it never reverses on its own. It may have done so in the Hawes case. Just because she happened to be doing all that stuff doesn't mean it was causal. This is why controls are necessary to have complete confidence in the conclusions. It may happen but this may be the first documented case.

Also the fact that she has never done any "targeted" exercise like Schroth is simultaneously consistent with a spontaneous reduction and that Schroth is ineffective.

Also, the perennial question of permanence and getting incapacitated if the reduction is PT dependent.

Can you list out the other three data points?

One is a chiro claim of a teenage girl who is also wearing a brace, yes? I think the jury is WAY out on that one and it is too early to say at this point.

The yoga woman... does she have radiographic evidence or do we just have her word?

Who is the fourth person?

[Pooka1]

It is proof that scoliosis *can* be reversed through non-surgical means, even though there is not enough information yet to show exactly how it was reversed.

It is well known that scoliosis can appear to be reversed under various definitions of "temporary" through bracing and standing funny, among other things.

I'm, wondering if there is something funny about the business of taking in a deep breath that Hawes was instructed to do. I wonder if the earlier radiogragh didn't have her do that whereas teh later ones did.

Again, I would like to hear what surgeons say about the case.

[Pooka1]

Until this can be reliable reproduced and verified, it's just anecdotal.

Okay I'd like to hear from the pre-surgical people on this site... after having read that testimonial, is anyone jumping on that bandwagon expecting the same result?

[mamamax]

But, anecdotal is good enough for a disorder which never reverses on its own. It is proof that scoliosis *can* be reversed through non-surgical means, even though there is not enough information yet to show exactly how it was reversed.

Four data points so far. Still looking for more.

I would agree that anecdotal information should not be dismissed in the search for answers.

I keep looking for data points myself. I wear the Spinecor orthosis - this is what is called a dynamic brace, or one that effectively acts as physical therapy when wearing during normal daily activities (as I understand the design as explained by the inventors).

I am experiencing progressive small reductions, at the age of 60, and now nine months into treatment. So far, there is only one published study regarding adult use: http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/2/S1/S23


Conclusion:
These findings suggest the use of a flexible strapping orthosis (Spinecor) is an effective tool in the management of adult scoliosis. Long term studies are necessary to determine the sustainability of these early positive results.

Results:
Patients were separated into three groups based on curvature location: Thoracic (T), Thoracolumbar (TL) and Lumbar (L). T-tests were performed using the initial and follow-up Cobb measurements of AP radiographs for each of the three groups. The maximum (T) reduced from 94 degrees to 77 degrees (-12.2%) following a minimum of three months of treatment. The maximum (TL) measurement reduced from 31 degrees to 23 degrees (-13.4%), and the (L) minimum reduced from 17 degrees to 11.1 degrees (-15.3%). The patients in the "Thoracic" group (n = 20) had a mean average change of -5.27 degrees. The "Thoracolumbar" group (n = 3) had a mean average change of -6.0 degrees. The Lumbar group (n = 15) had a mean average change of -4.40 degrees.

Data Points for me: The work of Martha Hawes shows that adult curvature reduction and stabilization can be achieved through non surgical means using exercise as defined by the AMA, and physical therapy does fall under said definition - the Spinecor orthisis is dynamic and by this definition according to the inventors, can act as a form of physical therapy. There exist published accounts of adult reduction using the spinecor orthosis, I'm experiencing this myself - hence, data points relative to the work of Hawes, non surgical means, and exercise.

[Pooka1]

Those are all in brace.

[mamamax]

Those are all in brace.

No they are not.


Study design
Twenty-three adults between the ages eighteen and sixty-five years, seeking treatment for adolescent onset idiopathic scoliosis (AIS) were fitted with the Spinecor Orthosis [1] after being exposed to an anterior-posterior (AP) full spine and lateral full spine radiograph, with a minimum of three months between exposures and a maximum of one year. Measurements of the radiographs were performed using a digital inclinometer in order to reduce error and all projections were exposed without the orthosis.

[Pooka1]

No they are not.


Study design
Twenty-three adults between the ages eighteen and sixty-five years, seeking treatment for adolescent onset idiopathic scoliosis (AIS) were fitted with the Spinecor Orthosis [1] after being exposed to an anterior-posterior (AP) full spine and lateral full spine radiograph, with a minimum of three months between exposures and a maximum of one year. Measurements of the radiographs were performed using a digital inclinometer in order to reduce error and all projections were exposed without the orthosis.

When they don't state how long they were out of brace I assume it's 5 minutes. If it was a few days they would have said so.

Those are essentially in brace measurements as far as can be determined.

[mamamax]

Data Points for me: The work of Martha Hawes shows that adult curvature reduction and stabilization can be achieved through non surgical means using exercise as defined by the AMA, and physical therapy does fall under said definition - the Spinecor orthisis is dynamic and by this definition according to the inventors, can act as a form of physical therapy. There exist published accounts of adult reduction using the spinecor orthosis, I'm experiencing this myself - hence, data points relative to the work of Hawes, non surgical means, and exercise.

Not to quote myself :-) but ... a data point, is a data point, is a - data point.

[jrnyc]

Is martha hawes a one time, one person thing? has this ever occurred with even ONE other person? cause...in the lyme disease community, there was a woman named linda, out in minnesota, who recovered from severe lyme disease with one round of antibiotics..she wrote a BOOK about it!! we used to call her "the miracle cure"...we were in awe that anyone really really ill with lyme in their brain could get better that easily!

maybe martha hawes is the scoliosis "miracle cure"..that does not mean it works for anyone else...until it does, what else do you call it? an anomaly? a freak occurrence...just darn good luck? i read about this woman for pages & pages on forum...but dont understand where the repetition of the results is...it is as if some people cling to this one situation as if it means anyone or everyone could be "saved" in the same manner...i think it is kinda sad...

jess

[hdugger]

Four data points related so far, all four credited to exercise and (maybe) massage:

* Martha Hawes, discussed here
* Elise Miller, who did extensive yoga in her 20s to reduce her curve and does an hour a day to hold it
* The SEAS study, one adult reducing a curve by over 10 degrees and holding that reduction for a year with 30 minutes a day of exercise
* One teenage on this forum who reduced her curve around 15 degrees doing targeted Schroth exercise for 30 minutes a day.

If there are documented cases of spontaneous reduction in a curve that have held for a year, I haven't heard of them. The scientific literature rather emphatically states the opposite.

As to a bandwagon, there's none to get on. Again, I assume my son will end up having surgery. But I believe that, as we learn more about exercise and scoliosis and start to nail down exactly what works, how it works, and how long it holds, that will become an effective treatment for some.

[jrnyc]

when "documented" is stated...documented by whom? is there an impartial agent who can assess such things...cause i just dont trust the self described cures...some days i actually think my scoli is getting better...the next day i dont...i am not saying people are not truthful..i am saying that one cannot be objective about one's own body...especially when hoping for an improvement....

just asking...is there objective measurement somewhere of these "changes" or "improvements"? must one be under 21 years old for it to work?

jess

[hdugger]

when "documented" is stated...documented by whom? is there an impartial agent who can assess such things...cause i just dont trust the self described cures...some days i actually think my scoli is getting better...the next day i dont...i am not saying people are not truthful..i am saying that one cannot be objective about one's own body...especially when hoping for an improvement....

just asking...is there objective measurement somewhere of these "changes" or "improvements"? must one be under 21 years old for it to work?

jess

I think I've scattered the links hither and yon, but the Hawes report has several xrays read by several practioners, as does the SEAS study. I don't have much info on Elise - Linda would know more, as she's been in contact with her. The forum member was measured both before and after by her orthopedic surgeon.

One data point (the forum member) is a teenage, Elise was in her early 20s, I think the SEAS woman was in her mid twenties or 30s but I have to go back and check, and Martha saw her improvment well into adulthood - 30s or 40s.

Again, I think we're at the start of this search, rather then at the end, but it is all very interesting.

[Pooka1]

I think I've scattered the links hither and yon, but the Hawes report has several xrays read by several practioners, as does the SEAS study.

Can you post the link to the SEAS study please?


I don't have much info on Elise - Linda would know more, as she's been in contact with her.

We don't know if she has radiographic proof. Linda would know.


The forum member was measured both before and after by her orthopedic surgeon.

I believe that is incorrect. I think a chiro said that. I don't think any orthopedic surgeon confirmed any decrease. But anyway, she is wearing a brace so nothing can be said of PT until she is well out of it.

[hdugger]

I believe that is incorrect. I think a chiro said that. I don't think any orthopedic surgeon confirmed any decrease. But anyway, she is wearing a brace so nothing can be said of PT until she is well out of it.

We're talking about different people. I think you're talking about Kid15 (I think that's her name). She saw a reduction in brace, I believe. I'm not including any bracing results in my data points - just exercise - so I haven't counted her.

I'm talking about the daughter of swimmergirlsmom. She's not in a brace and is under the care of an orthopedic surgeon. (Post in Torso Rotation Thread - http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=80392&postcount=52)

[hdugger]

Here's the link to the adult case in the SEAS study:

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/3/1/20

[Pooka1]

We're talking about different people. I think you're talking about Kid15 (I think that's her name). She saw a reduction in brace, I believe. I'm not including any bracing results in my data points - just exercise - so I haven't counted her.

I'm talking about the daughter of swimmergirlsmom. She's not in a brace and is under the care of an orthopedic surgeon.

Oh yes I forgot.

I agree she fits the criteria.

[jrnyc]

o.k., you guys..i guess maybe you can tell from the few posts...but i have no patience for this! until & unless reduction of curve is proven in dozens, nay hundreds, of patients, i'm calling martha hawes, in my book, "the miracle cure"....that is just my opinion, but i'm stickin' with it!

now, i had to study statistics three times for 3 different graduate degrees (done back when i had energy & no pain!).....though it has been awhile! if i recall, statistical significance is something that is required of formal studies..are you saying these 4 cases are informal studies...? mere anecdotes? i cant believe they even merit this attention!!

it makes me so sad...there is some expression about "pulling at straws" or something like that, when people are stretching to find an answer where it aint really...dont remember the exact words...but it makes me sad that people are so desperate to see a solution....where it doesnt seem to be there...if 4 people have a curve reduction with exercise, what would a real scientist call that, besides anecdotal...

i wish you all luck..i hope you can exercise to beat the band & get rid of your curves..i, on the other hand, know if i dont have the surgery, my curves will be here with me, til the beyond! too bad we really dont like each other!!

happy holidays
jess

[hdugger]

Quite OK, it's clearly not for everyone. But it's interesting for those of us for whom, well, it's interesting.

For statistics: I have a pretty good background, but also quite a long time ago. The statistical background is why I chose to look at curve reductions instead of just curves that stopped progression. Because curves *can* stop progressing, to prove that something caused the stopped progression, you'd have to design a good study and get a control group and balance for other variables, and so on and so on. But, for something that *never* happens in the natural course of a disease (like a significant curve reducing in a mature spine), you don't need any of that. All you need is some data points.

So, I'm going to go on gathering them.

[jrnyc]

Hi hdugger
may santa bring you all the evidence you need! :)

merry jingle

[txmarinemom]

Four data points related so far, all four credited to exercise and (maybe) massage: ...

I don't know if you'll find this noteworthy, but I've yet to see any collective group of massage therapists claim they can effect curvature ... and believe me when I say if they could, they *would*.

Pam

[hdugger]

I don't know if you'll find this noteworthy, but I've yet to see any collective group of massage therapists claim they can effect curvature ... and believe me when I say if they could, they *would*.


That is interesting. I would be surprised if massage on its own were effective, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you had to use massage to relax the tightened muscles on one side of the curve and then use exercise to strengthen the weak muscles on the other side. Intellectually it makes sense, although I have no idea if it would work.

Thanks for the holiday wishes, jrnyc. If you see Santa, do let him know that I've been very good!

[txmarinemom]

That is interesting. I would be surprised if massage on its own were effective, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you had to use massage to relax the tightened muscles on one side of the curve and then use exercise to strengthen the weak muscles on the other side. Intellectually it makes sense, although I have no idea if it would work.

That was in response to your post - LOL! Personally, I don't think it has the ability to effect curvature - nor will you ever hear me say that.

Pain relief is a whole 'nuther issue ...

[mamamax]

Here's the link to the adult case in the SEAS study:

http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/3/1/20

A few months back I wrote the first author on the paper "Adult scoliosis can be reduced through specific SEAS exercises: a case report", received a nice reply and the following web link for information and full reports: http://www.isico.it/approach/default.htm

The Textbook
THE EVIDENCE BASED ISICO APPROACH TO SPINAL DEFORMITIES
http://www.isico.it/approach/summary.htm

With the publication of Martha's follow up, this becomes ever more interesting to me - maybe interesting to some others also.

Email address for the authors if anyone has further questions is also within the above web page.

[Pooka1]

be interesting to some others also.

Email address for the authors if anyone has further questions is also within the above web page.

If someone is emailing, can you ask:

1. was this patient part of a study wherein she was the only one who saw a reduction?

2. how many people over the years and in formal study situations have tried this therapy and failed to see a reduction?

[hdugger]

Hi Pooka,

Although I wrote asking them that, the reason I'm not pressing on this is because I don't think that reduction is actually the main role for exercise. I think the main role is in stopping/slowing progression. But, since we've seen that studies proving a stop to progression are (apparently) impossible for doctors to cleanly design, I'm looking at the occasional reduction as the tip of the "exercise that possibly halts progression" iceberg.

So, if this exercise reduces one woman's curve, to me that means that it might halt ten others. I realize there's no solid scientific evidence that one indicates the other, but I think there's reason to suspect that it's so.

[Pooka1]

Hi Pooka,

Although I wrote asking them that, the reason I'm not pressing on this is because I don't think that reduction is actually the main role for exercise. I think the main role is in stopping/slowing progression. But, since we've seen that studies proving a stop to progression are (apparently) impossible for doctors to cleanly design, I'm looking at the occasional reduction as the tip of the "exercise that possibly halts progression" iceberg.

So, if this exercise reduces one woman's curve, to me that means that it might halt ten others. I realize there's no solid scientific evidence that one indicates the other, but I think there's reason to suspect that it's so.

That's seems reasonable to me, a bunny, but I'd like to hear what a surgeon would say.

I agree the halting/slowing of progression is never going to be shown outside of a very long term study, at least 20 years I think which is the time Pam's curve held on its own at ~50* as a teenager (and may have held there indefinitely absent her fusion). I question the chances of getting any meaningful sized study group to exercise for at least 20 years without fail. I predict it will never been shown. And when we have not only Pam but another person in this little sandbox (who I'm not remembering at the moment) who had a similar trajectory (though not 20 years) then we can't assume it is all that rare even at that degree and even in a teenager.

[mamamax]

I was comparing the initial reports from Martha Hawes against the most recent publication.

The attached xray gives us information up to 2001, the information from 2009 is in the second table attached.

What we see now is more than stabilization of reduced curvature (with one hour of exercise daily), we also see continued reduction since 2001

A notable observation I think. Previous to the 2009 publication we were all talking about her maintaining the 2001 reduction with one hour of exercise daily. With this new publication, we see the reduction continues.






2001 Reference
http://www.scoliosis.org/resources/spinalconnection_spr2002.pdf

2005 Reference (published in 2009):
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/pdf/1748-7161-4-27.pdf

[brokenwings25]

This repore was the only thing I could find that is anything lke what is going on with me and I want to know if anyone has has heard of anything else like it or may have a clue as to why. At 17 I was told I have scoliosis. An S curve at 26 and 24 degrees. I am 29 now and just had new Xrays done for the first time since then I was told I now have a C curve at 15 degrees. I have had NO treatment at all! No brace, surgry, PT, anything! In fact I avoided the doctor as much as possable. I did not think it was possable for a scoliosis curve to change from an S curve to a C curve and improve all on its own durring adulthood. Am I wrong or does anyone know ware to point me for ansewrs?
Linda J.

[hdugger]

That's interesting, Linda.

I have the sense that "smaller" curves (under 35 degrees) do sometimes resolve, although I'm surprised to hear of one resolving in adulthood.

Do you have your old xray? It might be worthwhile to look again at those curves and make sure that the old doctor (or the new one) didn't misread them somehow (mine make a 12 degree "error" by starting his count from a different vertebrae)

As for changing shape, yes, that does happen. It's very common for a single curve to go to a double. In your case, if the upper curve did reduce in size, than the lower "compensatory" curve might well get small enough to seem straight.

[Bigbluefrog]

I am glad to see you have found success in your adult treatment of scoliosis.:):)

I find it rewarding to hear your story, to say that surgery is not the only option but that some do have success with exercise and bracing...is hopeful.

please note: for those who did have surgery, do not judge your scoliosis with hers...for I believe scoliosis may vary with each individual and what works for one may not work for others.

I would highly recommend exercise as the first step in care....

since dx, Amb continues to exercise, some yoga, scoliosis specific exercises for her curve, and swimming, she also plays the trumpet and works on diaphragm and lung capacity.

** We have not been on here for awhile...we started her pump therapy for diabetes.
The more we use the pump the more I realize a brace is not really an option for us...so I am hoping and praying for a small miracle..planting my mustard seed. I pray she stays the same or improves...honestly the diabetes is enough of a burden

[mamamax]

This repore was the only thing I could find that is anything lke what is going on with me and I want to know if anyone has has heard of anything else like it or may have a clue as to why. At 17 I was told I have scoliosis. An S curve at 26 and 24 degrees. I am 29 now and just had new Xrays done for the first time since then I was told I now have a C curve at 15 degrees. I have had NO treatment at all! No brace, surgry, PT, anything! In fact I avoided the doctor as much as possable. I did not think it was possable for a scoliosis curve to change from an S curve to a C curve and improve all on its own durring adulthood. Am I wrong or does anyone know ware to point me for ansewrs?
Linda J.

Hi Linda - I missed your posting earlier - wow. I would like to know more about your story. I just finished reading Martha's memoir (Unwinding) last evening, for the second time. After the SOSORT presentation that she made in Athens, Greece, an eminent British scoliosis research scientist (who remains unnamed) said to her: We need to know how many other Martha's are out there.

We know spontaneous resolution can occur in children, and there is literature to document that - but as far as adults, there is (to my knowledge) no documentation. Martha's case is actually the first scientifically documented case of adult reversal, and she has used many different methods. In your case - you have not done anything intentionally to produce this surprising result. As for answers to that - man, I sure don't have any. You may want to drop Martha a line - as she has done exhaustive research of the literature, and no doubt spoken with countless others over the last fifteen years, if anyone knows anything about this happening in other adults, I'm guessing it would be her. I'm hoping you have past xrays and that you can document what has happened.

Even if you can't document what has happened - I think your story indicates that there may indeed be other Martha's out there. And while you have not intentionally done anything to produce what has happened, I'm curious as to what your lifestyle may have been like over the years to possibly contribute to your result (in a way you may not be aware of). For example, there are anecdotal reports of those who practice belly dancing, discovering improvement in their scoliosis (an unintentional byproduct).

Thanks for your posting and I hope you will share more - there may indeed be other Martha's out there.

[joyfull]

Hi all. I have been trying to avoid surgery since I was diagnosed at age 11 and wore a brace until about age 16. I am now 57. Since I have had no pain I have not paid much attention to my scoliosis; I married at 19, had two boys and the scoliosis never bothered my husband.

I did yoga for years and I suppose it delayed the progression, as well as kept me fit. In 2007, when I stopped the yoga, I began to feel changes. Again, trying to do anything to avoid surgery, I went to Clear Institute in Minnesota which I believe sped up the progression (I wrote about this elsewhere on the forum). When I went to Clear my scoliosis was 83 degrees. When I left two weeks later, Dr. Woggon said his x-ray read 63 degrees. This was after an intense regimen of stretching and adjustments.

Now I am at 90 degrees, increased kyphosis to the right side with 50% reduced lung capacity and have resigned myself to surgery in June. I have been blessedly pain free, although now I get out of breath more easily. In some ways I am glad that I waited since there were so many problems with the Harrington rod.

I have read about people who have been helped by the Clear method as well. But I suppose my experience has taught me that perhaps having surgery earlier is better since it probably preserves the shape of the torso and decreases the likelihood of lung problems. I recently heard about an older woman who died from complications from advanced scoliosis. Good luck to all and best wishes for a wonderful new year. Joy

[mamamax]

Hi Joy - the truth certainly is that we never know for certain what the future may bring. While I'm confident in the non surgical treatment I'm receiving and hope to avoid surgery - I am mindful that there are never any guarantees (surgical or non surgical). If I were to require surgery in the future, I would consider consulting with one of our newest members, an SRS surgeon Dr. Anand (scoliosisdoctor).

His website: http://www.infospine.net/index.html

Patient testimonial #5 (a woman in her 70's): http://www.infospine.net/patient-testimonials-spine-disorders-los-angeles-ca.html

[hdugger]

That's a very helpful post, Joy.

I would be very hesitant to suggest exercise for my son if he continued to progress. There's just too much that can go wrong with an increasing curve. If it can hold it where it is, though, I'd be tempted to continue with it.

[brokenwings25]

After My doctor told me my curves had gotten damaticly better with no treatment, as much as I liked the news, I thought it would be best to get a seccond opinion. This new doctor is starting me on PT 3x a week to get my muscles back to where they were and has ordered all my reccords from my old doctor along with the x-ray summary from the imaging center. She said there was definatly an S curve and did not look too bad but she did not want to say any more without all my reccords. I was asked that I did that may have helped. Well I don't sit down. Ever. I stay active and moveing even when I can't stand the pain. I also stretch and did excercizes to keep my back muscles as strong as I could. I coached my son's soccer team ful of 4, 5, and 6 yearolds for 2 years and I do a lot of house work. I have gotten away from all of that latly and am not in as good of shape as I was 6 months agobut the PT will help. I hope the other doctor was right and it has improved.

[Pooka1]

Just curious... did a board certified orthopedic surgeon who does spine tell you you have a C curve of 15 degrees or was it a chiro?

Also, was the second opinion saying you still have a S curve a board certified orthopedic surgeon who does spine?

[mamamax]

After My doctor told me my curves had gotten damaticly better with no treatment, as much as I liked the news, I thought it would be best to get a seccond opinion. This new doctor is starting me on PT 3x a week to get my muscles back to where they were and has ordered all my reccords from my old doctor along with the x-ray summary from the imaging center. She said there was definatly an S curve and did not look too bad but she did not want to say any more without all my reccords. I was asked that I did that may have helped. Well I don't sit down. Ever. I stay active and moveing even when I can't stand the pain. I also stretch and did excercizes to keep my back muscles as strong as I could. I coached my son's soccer team ful of 4, 5, and 6 yearolds for 2 years and I do a lot of house work. I have gotten away from all of that latly and am not in as good of shape as I was 6 months agobut the PT will help. I hope the other doctor was right and it has improved.

Beautiful experience Linda - thank you for sharing. Hope you will keep us posted. Kind of looks like your doctor is not a chiropractor (though it doesn't make a lot of difference to me, I believe they are capable of identifying curvature patterns - mine even measures using the same method as my Orthopedic specialist) - noted you were referred to PT, and I don't think chiropractors do that ;-)

[Pooka1]

noted you were referred to PT, and I don't think chiropractors do that ;-)

Mine did.

I was referred to an honest chiro when I had my crushed disc. After admitting time would be the real agent of my relief, he did some manipulations and also sent me to PT which did help until the vertebra fused on their own. Then the pain was eliminated (TM) for almost two decades until recently.

[mamamax]

wow - I wasn't aware of that. Anyway - I sure am glad you had a long run with pain relief. That's a good thing. Sorry to hear you have a bit of trouble now & hope it goes away :-(

[Pooka1]

wow - I wasn't aware of that. Anyway - I sure am glad you had a long run with pain relief. That's a good thing. Sorry to hear you have a bit of trouble now & hope it goes away :-(

Thanks Maxine. I wasn't given a guarantee (TM) of permanent pain relief. I have come to understand that stuff in the lumbar is not necessarily stable, even a two-level natural/spontaneous fusion.