PDA

View Full Version : Another study connects asymmetry and Scoliosis



Dingo
12-13-2009, 10:13 PM
August 2009: Comparison of the Melatonin and Calmodulin in Paravertebral Muscle and Platelets of Patients With or Without Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis (http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/2009/08150/Comparison_of_the_Melatonin_and_Calmodulin_in.6.as px)


Conclusion. AIS group had an asymmetric distribution of calmodulin in paraspinal muscle, higher at the convex side and lower at the concave. Neither platelet melatonin nor platelet calmodulin was found to be representative of the muscle protein values.

Another study found an asymmetry in children with Scoliosis. This time the asymmetry occured in a protein called Calmodulin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calmodulin) found in muscle cells. It should be noted that Calmodulin is significantly impacted by exercise (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=calmodulin+exercise&aq=f&oq=&aqi=).

You might be asking yourself if this Calmodulin asymmetry in the paraspinal muscles is a cause or consequence of Scoliosis. It's possible that we already have an answer. Two recent studies found that Tamoxifen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamoxifen), a Calmodulin antagonist puts Scoliosis in reverse.

March 2009: The Effect of Calmodulin Antagonists on Experimental Scoliosis: A Pinealectomized Chicken Model (http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/2009/03150/The_Effect_of_Calmodulin_Antagonists_on.2.aspx)


Conclusion. The incidence and magnitude of scoliosis in pinealectomized chicken may be decreased by the administration of TMX, presumably because of this drugs' calmodulin antagonism. Further studies on higher animals and dosage and timing are required.

April 2009: The effect of calmodulin antagonists on scoliosis: bipedal C57BL/6 mice model. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19242737)


This study has demonstrated that TMX is effective in changing the natural history of scoliotic deformities in C57BL6 mice model favorably.

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 01:06 PM
You realize that this paper is contradictory to what Moreau is trying to patent.
"Tissue melatonin concentrations were not found to be significantly different between the groups or the side of the paraspinal muscles."

"Results were similar for both groups for melatonin as well as calmodulin and muscle concentrations were not correlated with platelet concentrations.
This discrepancy of findings may be explained with several different reasons, one being the amount of platelet rich plasma being used, a whole unit in our study compared with much smaller amounts in others; differences in methodology as it has not been possible to follow the exact same methodology reported by the others in this study; by the fact
that all patients in this study already had progressed and relatively stabilized scoliotic curves; and finally, by the possibility that platelets are indeed not mini muscle models in terms of melatonin and calmodulin ratios. It also has to be stressed that only 3 patients in the control group were available for the platelet calmodulin examination, a limitation of this study which might have affected the comparison between groups, but not necessarily the comparison between the muscle and platelet values in the AIS group."

Dingo
12-14-2009, 01:31 PM
You realize that this paper is contradictory to what Moreau is trying to patent.

Moreau's patent relates to high levels of Osteopontin not Calmodulin.

(WO/2008/119170) METHOD OF DETERMINING RISK OF SCOLIOSIS (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=2008119170&IA=CA2008000595&DISPLAY=DESC)

Like most diseases scientists will probably develop a few different methods to treat Scoliosis.

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 01:45 PM
It is all still part of the same regulatory pathway and this is a report of contradictory data. At least a theory that the calmodulin levels are changed as a consequence of load differences and not an indicator of cause or progression.

I apologize that I got one stupid patent confused with another.


p

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 01:47 PM
Like most diseases scientists will probably develop a few different methods to treat Scoliosis.

If a disease is treated with more that one method, it just means the newer methods aren't much better than the old one.

Pooka1
12-14-2009, 02:17 PM
This is the second time he posted something that contradicted an earlier "truth" of his.

I am not trying to beat that dead horse. I am hoping he realizes that there is an OCEAN of stuff that he doesn't understand and there is an even bigger ocean of things that he isn't even aware off as it relates to this subject.

If scoliosis research was easy we could all do it.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 02:19 PM
PNUTTRO


It is all still part of the same regulatory pathway and this is a report of contradictory data.

Perhaps many different proteins are involved in Scoliosis. For obvious reasons that opens up the possibility for multiple modes of treatment. Is one protein involved in heart disease or cancer? Is there only one medicine for these diseases?

I think in a previous post you mentioned that you work in the scientific community. What is it that you do?

Pooka1
12-14-2009, 02:27 PM
I think in a previous post you mentioned that you work in the scientific community. What is it that you do?

Stunning.

So depending on her answer, are you going to decide whether her comment is correct or false?

And your credentials to evaluate her credentials would be...?

hdugger
12-14-2009, 02:32 PM
I count one post over the "one comment per page of Dingo's discussion" rule :)


Stunning.

So depending on her answer, are you going to decide whether her comment is correct or false?

And your credentials to evaluate her credentials would be...?

and


This is the second time he posted something that contradicted an earlier "truth" of his.

I am not trying to beat that dead horse. I am hoping he realizes that there is an OCEAN of stuff that he doesn't understand and there is an even bigger ocean of things that he isn't even aware off as it relates to this subject.

If scoliosis research was easy we could all do it.

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 02:33 PM
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/4/1/13


"LHS concept, melatonin-signaling pathway dysfunction,
osteopontin and sCD44
In progressive AIS, Moreau and colleagues [74,75] reported melatonin-signaling transduction to be impaired in osteoblasts, myoblasts and lymphocytes, caused by the dysfunction of G inhibitory (Gi) proteins. This mechanism does not appear to explain:
• the association of an excess of severe TA with relatively
lower BMI suggesting a link with energy homeostasis
(this paper); and
• disturbance in the autonomic nervous system regulating blood flow to the anterior chest wall in girls with right thoracic AIS [76-79] – unless the sympathetic nervous system also has Gi-signaling defect, or induces a Gi-signaling defect in growth plates and bone (see below).
Most recently, Moreau et al [80,81] report mean plasma osteopontin (OPN) levels are increased in patients with (1) idiopathic scoliosis, correlating significantly with curve severity, and in (2) "an asymptomatic at-risk group" (offspring born from at least one scoliotic parent). In contrast, mean plasma levels of soluble CD44 receptor (sCD44) are significantly lower in patients with Cobb angles of 45 degrees or more [80,81]. No OPN or sCD44 data are published for non-familial TA with or without spinal deformity."

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 02:37 PM
[QUOTE=hdugger;87603]I count one post over the "one comment per page of Dingo's discussion" rule :)

Glad I didn't agree to that.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 02:39 PM
PNUTTRO


LHS concept, melatonin-signaling pathway dysfunction, osteopontin and sCD44 In progressive AIS...

What does that have to do with the 3 Calmodulin studies I posted?

When did you come up with the hypothesis that each disease impacts 1 protein and will have 1 treatment?

Honestly, what do you do in the field of science?

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 02:40 PM
PNUTTRO



Perhaps many different proteins are involved in Scoliosis. For obvious reasons that opens up the possibility for multiple modes of treatment. Is one protein involved in heart disease or cancer? Is there only one medicine for these diseases?

I think in a previous post you mentioned that you work in the scientific community. What is it that you do?


I will give a biblical reference, for Sharon's sake, and since I just read it this morning and it applies to this question.

Matthew 21:23-27

hdugger
12-14-2009, 02:45 PM
You're discussing the substance of the finding. There's no limit on that.
[QUOTE=hdugger;87603]I count one post over the "one comment per page of Dingo's discussion" rule :)

Glad I didn't agree to that.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 02:46 PM
PNUTTRO


I will give a biblical reference, for Sharon's sake, and since I just read it this morning and it applies to this question.

Matthew 21:23-27

I chat with a few different researchers in the field of Scoliosis. You don't write like a scientist. You don't work in the scientific community do you?

Pooka1
12-14-2009, 02:48 PM
PNUTTRO



I chat with a few different researchers in the field of Scoliosis. You don't write like a scientist. You don't work in the scientific community do you?

Stunning.

1,000 apologies to hdugger.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 02:50 PM
hdugger


You're discussing the substance of the finding.

I don't think anybody is discussing the substance of those Calmodulin studies. However, PNUTTRO is posting some very "interesting" scientific hypothesis.

1 disease = 1 protein

No more, no less.

When a "scientist" posts a hypothesis like that my radar goes up.

hdugger
12-14-2009, 02:52 PM
Quite OK - new page :)

Stunning.

1,000 apologies to hdugger.

hdugger
12-14-2009, 02:53 PM
It's close enough for me - as long as we're still talking science of some kind, it doesn't enter into the "comment" count. At least, in the way I'm tallying.


I don't think anybody is discussing the substance of those Calmodulin studies. However, PNUTTRO is posting some very "interesting" scientific hypothesis.

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 02:58 PM
I chat with a few different researchers in the field of Scoliosis. You don't write like a scientist. You don't work in the scientific community do you?

I guess I am not your ordinary scientist. I sent you a PM of my credentials even though it will still not garner any respect from you--hence the scripture reference.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 03:02 PM
PNUTTRO

Forget everything else.

Where did you get the idea that each disease has 1 protein involved?

Do you understand that Calmodulin, Osteopontin and perhaps a dozen other proteins might be involved in Scoliosis?

txmarinemom
12-14-2009, 03:48 PM
I chat with a few different researchers in the field of Scoliosis. You don't write like a scientist. You don't work in the scientific community do you?

O.M.G.

Dingo,

It's been said before what P does, you just don't ever seem to listen. You're going to feel pretty foolish when (if) it dawns on you.

And I'm still laughing at Sharon's question about how *you're* credentialed to review someone else's credentials!

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 03:58 PM
Forget everything else.

Where did you get the idea that each disease has 1 protein involved?

You understand that Calmodulin, Osteopontin and perhaps dozens of other proteins might be involved in Scoliosis?

I think it has been me telling you for months that everything is WAY more complicated than you make it out to be.

I didn't say one disease=one protein, that was your interpretation of my response. I was simply stating that if a treatment works, why is there a need to develop a new one. You cited cancer and heart disease. These are NOT single protein problems, these are generic names for a variety of health problems. In fact, each cancer is unique to every individual.

. . .but forget everything else that doesn't fit into your idea of the world, please.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 04:15 PM
PNUTTRO


I was simply stating that if a treatment works, why is there a need to develop a new one.

I'm trying to be polite here but it's those kinds of "questionable" theories that turn my radar on. You realize that some people like Ibuprofin and others like Aspirin?


In fact, each cancer is unique to every individual.

Wouldn't that be true for all disease including Scoliosis? You understand that having more than one way to fight Scoliosis would be a good thing?

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 04:28 PM
I'm trying to be polite here but it's those kinds of "questionable" scientific statements that turn my radar on. You realize that some people like Ibuprofin and others like Aspirin?

You realize that we used aspirin for 50 years before anyone decided that we needed other pain killers. Different biological mechanisms.


Wouldn't that be true for all disease including Scoliosis? You understand that having more than one way to fight Scoliosis would be a good thing?

If a treatment works, a treatment works. We are having discussions about scoliosis treatments because surgery is a very extreme solution to the problem, but it works.

Other, less invasive, treatments have variable results. If a new treatment comes out that has a very high success rate with less risk than surgery, it will revolutionize scoliosis treatment and other treatments will fall away.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 04:35 PM
PNUTTRO


You realize that we used aspirin for 50 years before anyone decided that we needed other pain killers. Different biological mechanisms.

So for instance if one group of scientists attempted to develop a treatment based on Calmodulin and another attempted to develop a treatment based Osteopontin that would be good right?


If a new treatment comes out that has a very high success rate with less risk than surgery, it will revolutionize scoliosis treatment and other treatments will fall away.

Wow, you make a good point. I don't think any of the researchers working to find a pharmeceutical treatment for Scoliosis had thought of that. If you don't mind I'm going to forward your message to one of the scientists I talk with regularly who is involved in this research.

Judging by your statements I'm not sure if you are a scientist or not. But regardless of that you are an idiot. I'm going to put you on my ignore list. I encourage you to put me on your ignore list as well.

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 04:48 PM
PNUTTRO



So for instance if one group of scientists attempted to develop a treatment based on Calmodulin and another attempted to develop a treatment based Osteopontin that would be good right?



Wow, you make a good point. I don't think any of the researchers working to find a pharmeceutical treatment for Scoliosis had thought of that.

Judging by your statements I'm not sure if you are a scientist or not. But regardless of that you are an idiot. I'm going to put you on my ignore list. I encourage you to put me on your ignore list as well.


You haven't noticed that I have been ignoring you?

I hope everyone is adequately entertained.

Pooka1
12-14-2009, 04:50 PM
Look.

If I might.

Just one thing.

Dingo, what are you trying to accomplish with these posts in the research section?

What are they contributing?

Dingo
12-14-2009, 04:53 PM
I just wanted to say that the ignore list is working flawlessly. :)

hdugger
12-14-2009, 04:55 PM
Dingo, what are you trying to accomplish with these posts in the research section?

What are they contributing?

Isn't one supposed to post research in the research section? I like the idea of people posting and advancing pet theories - just gives up more things to graw on.

I actually found the discussion interesting (although I'm not following with any level of comprehension) until the whole thing kind of blew up. Which was interesting too, in a kind of unavoidable freeway pile up kind of way.

Pooka1
12-14-2009, 04:58 PM
Isn't one supposed to post research in the research section? I like the idea of people posting and advancing pet theories - just gives up more things to graw on.

I actually found the discussion interesting (although I'm not following with any level of comprehension) until the whole thing kind of blew up.

What if I started posting my bunny take on research in plasma physics to a plasma physics group wherein it was obvious I have no grasp whatsoever of the material?

Would that be considered "contributing?"

hdugger
12-14-2009, 05:01 PM
What if I started posting my bunny take on research in plasma physics to a plasma physics group wherein it was obvious I have no grasp whatsoever of the material?

Would that be considered "contributing?"

Well, I'm not on a plasma physics group forum, so I wouldn't know. But, research posted in a research forum for a group of parents/patients with scoliosis is a good use of the forum, IMO.

We're exceeding the comment/substance ratio here, though, I think. Perhaps we ought to take the metadiscussion back to the "way forward" topic.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 05:02 PM
hdugger


Isn't one supposed to post research in the research section?

When scientists finally prove the exact nature of Scoliosis this site will no longer exist. :) The people arguing with me in this and other threads know this. These folks are simply trolls (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-internet-troll.htm) looking for attention. Most boards ban people like that but since this board doesn't they migrate here.


an Internet troll may try to drive a wedge through a community, often with the assistance of sock puppet accounts. A sock puppet is a fake identity which is used by someone who does not want to post under his or her regular name; some trolls have multitudes of sock puppets to make their side of an argument look like it has a large number of supporters
It wouldn't surprise me if this was going on. There are a "group" of people on here who all practice they same brand of stupid.

hdugger
12-14-2009, 07:37 PM
Dingo,

In the only realm in which I'm going to claim real authority (I ran the community moderation department for a small discussion software company for eight years) I can assure you that this is not troll action. It's just a group of people who strongly disagree with you.

BTW, you are *well* over the one "you're a poo-poo head" post for every three pages of discussion. If you hold off for three more pages, you can let go on the 7th :)

Dingo
12-14-2009, 07:48 PM
hdugger


It's just a group of people who strongly disagree with you.

I'm not sure if they ever do disagree with me. I posted 3 studies on Calmodulin and I don't think anyone disagreed with their findings.

leahdragonfly
12-14-2009, 08:20 PM
Dingo, I personally find most of your posts so completely "out there", especially coming from a lay person, that I find it best to try and ignore your posts as much as possible. I have more important things to do than discuss calmodulin levels with you. So please, do not take a lack of comment on your posts to mean that everyone agrees with you.

Now, please do not take this personally. I respect you for trying to do the best possible for your son.

Good day,

PNUTTRO
12-14-2009, 08:26 PM
I reread this thread and I must admit that my posts lacked clarity at the beginning. Once one disagrees with DINGO, the rebuttals come fast and furious.

I simply wanted to point out that there are contrary opinions to those of Moreau et al. I did make the error of confusing the cAMP test with the OPN patent. I read part of it and it looks a concept patent so that no else can use OPN as a marker for scoliosis without paying Moreau.

I am continually frustrated by so called scientists that are more interesting in their own financial gain than publishing their "revolutionary results". Moreau's results, by the way, still have not been published.

I sent a list of my publications to Dingo and he still doesn't believe that I am real. I submitted evidence to him within several minutes and if I wanted to create a false identity, I certainly would have come up with a better profile.

Sharon, did you happen to look up my scripture reference. I realize that you don't have a bible at home, but you can find it easily online. Honestly, it won't kill you. It is very apt to the question of credibility.

p

Pooka1
12-14-2009, 08:38 PM
Sharon, did you happen to look up my scripture reference. I realize that you don't have a bible at home, but you can find it easily online. Honestly, it won't kill you. It is very apt to the question of credibility.

p

Yes I did as soon as you posted it. I agree it is apt.

I fear we are in an endless, mindless loop here in the research section.

The research section is a bit bizarre in my opinion. The PT papers are one thing but the biochem papers are tough without knowing the background. Understanding the English in the paper is never enough. Besides you, I don't know of anyone else on here with much biochem under their belt. I have but one 500 level course so I am really struggling with this material.

I think this section should be for people posting articles written for lay people. Absent that, it should be for researchers who can explain the biochem papers. Having lay people come on here discussing this material is comical at best and misleading at worst. I don't understand the need to posture.

Dingo
12-14-2009, 08:54 PM
leahdragonfly


So please, do not take a lack of comment on your posts to mean that everyone agrees with you.

I was only refering to PNUTTRO and POOKA1. Neither of them disagreed with those 3 Calmodulin studies and yet we had a huge debate about essentially... nothing.

I put them on my ignore list so I have no idea if they've gotten around to finding fault with those studies at this time. :)


I personally find most of your posts so completely "out there", especially coming from a lay person, that I find it best to try and ignore your posts as much as possible.

Right now there is no certainty as to what will help Scoliosis. I look for ideas that are potentially helpful and have a few things in common.

Idea checklist
A) It's based on mainstream scientific thought
B) It's inexpensive
C) It's easy
D) It's considered a healthy behavior in children without Scoliosis
E) Worst case scenario it won't hurt

Whether you are talking about exercise, fish oil, or sleeping in a dark room those are all healthy, inexpensive things that a doctor would recommend for any kid. I strongly believe that strength training helps Scoliosis but worst case scenario it won't hurt.

hdugger
12-14-2009, 10:05 PM
This checklist is exactly why I've thought that these papers were helpful, even without professional vetting. Most of us have years and years of watching and waiting. Since medicine offers nothing to do during those years, any lead meeting these criteria is useful. Most, maybe all, won't pan out. But, if something that has not been thoroughly vetted actually works for even one kid, it's worthwhile.



Idea checklist
A) It's based on mainstream scientific thought
B) It's inexpensive
C) It's easy
D) It's considered a healthy behavior in children without Scoliosis
E) Worst case scenario it won't hurt

Whether you are talking about exercise, fish oil, or sleeping in a dark room those are all healthy, inexpensive things that a doctor would recommend for any kid. I strongly believe that strength training helps Scoliosis but worst case scenario it won't hurt.

Pooka1
12-15-2009, 05:43 AM
This checklist is exactly why I've thought that these papers were helpful, even without professional vetting.

That checklist has ZIP to do with the biochem, neuroendocrine, hormone cascades, etc. etc. papers being posted here. And how would a lay person know what is and isn't mainstream thought? He seems to single out fringe stuff and then has no way or discerning which is which. There have been papers posted and I have seen others that list a huge number of research avenues in scoliosis. It is passing strange why or how Dingo latches onto one avenue and not the other. It would appear random to a researcher in the field.

Besides Pnuttro, I am unaware of anyone who can really dissect these papers. I can barely follow some of her comments. Some I can't follow. We can know for a fact that Dingo doesn't understand this work because when he posts contradictory results, he doesn't note that they are contradictory or try to explain the divergence.

And he doesn't remember or understand material from his own threads. It was established on one of his threads that a researcher has stopped working with torso rotation, presumably for lack of long term results, but Dingo still accused Gayle of making up that fact.

It's not a crime to have zero background in biochem. But when only one person in the group is equipped to vet the articles and it's not the poster, it is useless at best. And why should Pnuttro have to come one here every time to provide the straight dope? I'm sure she has other things to do. This is the same reason we will likely never get a biochem scoliosis researcher on here. The amount of edification and the sheer amount of time involved in it is daunting.

Dingo
12-15-2009, 07:44 AM
hdugger

When I went to my son's first appointment I asked his doctor what we should do. He told me there was nothing we could do. I asked if exercise or stretching would help and he said no.

So I went online and I read... and read... and read... for months. Eventually I started writing the scientists who were involved in Scoliosis studies. To my surprise many times they wrote back with insights and observations that never made it into their studies.

One thing I learned from my reading was that inflammation was connected to just about every mental or physical illness that people suffer from. On the off chance that inflammation was either a cause or consequence of Scoliosis I purchased a pharmeceutical grade fish oil supplement for my son. He takes it every morning.

Since that time Dr. Moreau released his patent that indicated that high levels of Osteopontin are the cause of Scoliosis. Guess what... Osteopontin is a marker for inflammation. I'm glad I was proactive with the fish oil.

We also darkened my son's room to maximize his natural production of melatonin because of the possibility that low melatonin may lead to increased curve progression. The jury is still out on that but melatonin is a natural anti-inflammatory so I'm glad we took that step. In any case his sleep improved and sleeping in a dark room probably reduced his risk of cancer and other diseases.

As for exercise there is a whole thread devoted to that (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8976). :)

If 5 or 10 years from now Scoliosis is officially pinned on some type of asymmetry in the paraspinal muscles I'll be glad we were ahead of the curve. Worst case scenario my son is getting 10 extra minutes of exercise per day.

I should add this. There are probably many parents who are doing the exact same thing for their kids that I am doing. None of it is rocket science and the research is available to everyone. My 6 year old son is doing fine. I write on this and other boards in the hope that it will help someone else.

hdugger
12-15-2009, 10:56 AM
Hi Dingo,

This is probably not the right thread for it, but did you look at the papers about . . . not remembering the term here . . . something like shifting to the side? So, participants were asked to shift their upper body weight away from the curved side. This didn't appear to have much effect if they did it while they were sitting, but it did have some effect, they thought, if the participants did it while standing.

One of the things I keep pulling out of the few "successes" is that some kind of body awareness throughout the day is helpful. The what and how of that awareness, though, is pretty fuzzy.

hdugger
12-15-2009, 03:14 PM
Googling . . . They're calling it side-shifting. Here are some studies:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8c5d80y3dl9b8j4/
(with young patients with small curves, compared to a "historical" bracing control and found equiivalent - whatever we think that means :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15457756
(in skeletally mature patients - no progression in curve over 4 years)

Not sustainable in that studies have shown that the effect goes away? Or that it's not a reasonable thing to ask people to do?

Dingo
12-15-2009, 05:01 PM
hdugger

Very interesting, I've never heard of "side-shift" therapy. I would imagine that any activity that builds the paraspinal muscles would be helpful. Maybe this does something like that.

Generally speaking more muscular kids have less chance of curve progression.

Relation between adolescent idiopathic scoliosis and morphologic somatotypes. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9383860)


Fifty-two adolescent girls with progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis were compared with an age-matched control group of 62 unaffected girls using a classification technique based on morphologic somatotypes.


Subjects with progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis are significantly less mesomorphic than control girls. This observation may be of value as a predictive factor for early identification of subjects with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis at greater risk of progression.

aterry
01-12-2010, 01:57 PM
I've looked at some of the information posted on this and other threads about side shift exercises. I only found a few photos. I'm not clear about how the person keeps other body parts stable while shifting the spine. It seems to me that the hips and/or shoulders would shift, at least slightly.

In terms of musculature and asymmetry, I can see how these would be variables in the scoliosis puzzle (at least for some patients). But I'm curious about dancers. My daughter is a dancer and I've read on this and other sites that dancers have a higher prevalence of scoliosis than the general population but dancers are quite strong--not muscular like body builders or football players but pound-per-pound my daughter is the strongest person in our family. Also she has done mostly ballet which emphasizes symmetry, yet her convex side is weaker than her concave side and has continued to be so even though she's been doing PT for 6 months. She does have a leg-length discrepancy of 1/4" but I'm not sure how that would relate to the imbalance in muscles. She's been using a lift since diagnosis.

skevimc
01-12-2010, 06:24 PM
I've looked at some of the information posted on this and other threads about side shift exercises. I only found a few photos. I'm not clear about how the person keeps other body parts stable while shifting the spine. It seems to me that the hips and/or shoulders would shift, at least slightly.

In terms of musculature and asymmetry, I can see how these would be variables in the scoliosis puzzle (at least for some patients). But I'm curious about dancers. My daughter is a dancer and I've read on this and other sites that dancers have a higher prevalence of scoliosis than the general population but dancers are quite strong--not muscular like body builders or football players but pound-per-pound my daughter is the strongest person in our family. Also she has done mostly ballet which emphasizes symmetry, yet her convex side is weaker than her concave side and has continued to be so even though she's been doing PT for 6 months. She does have a leg-length discrepancy of 1/4" but I'm not sure how that would relate to the imbalance in muscles. She's been using a lift since diagnosis.

Side-shift is a pretty interesting therapy. I've read a bit about it and have some very informal experience with it. You're right in that it is difficult to keep the body parts stable. You move one thing and another thing compensates. It requires quite a bit of assistance at first. Sitting facing a mirror trying to physically and actively straighten the spine. The interesting part about the den Boer paper is that they actually take an x-ray of the 'straight' spine. At any rate, the principles involved are very similar to Schroth and Clear. The idea is to actively use the paraspinal muscles in a functionally meaningful way. With Schroth, they also try to straighten the spine during therapy but they use physical methods such as bars and rod to lean on or apply some external stabilization. Even though the SS therapy paper shows mostly short term success it is another promising therapy.

As far as dancers are concerned. I don't know the specific stats but think that dancers do have a slightly higher incidence. Rhythmic gymnasts definitely do. Depending on how fast she is growing will also have an effect on curve progression. Although it certainly seems contradictory at how strong your daughter is to then say it is because of a strength asymmetry. Who knows how much that plays a role? A lot? Minimal? It'll drive you crazy thinking about it.

skevimc
01-12-2010, 06:28 PM
Googling . . . They're calling it side-shifting. Here are some studies:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u8c5d80y3dl9b8j4/
(with young patients with small curves, compared to a "historical" bracing control and found equiivalent - whatever we think that means :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15457756
(in skeletally mature patients - no progression in curve over 4 years)

Not sustainable in that studies have shown that the effect goes away? Or that it's not a reasonable thing to ask people to do?

The idea is to get the patients trained and able to do this on their own. There is a training phase, then an at home phase with interval check-ups to ensure proper form and alignment.

The historical bracing control was a retrospective chart review from the same place that did the therapy.

LindaRacine
01-12-2010, 06:59 PM
Hi Skevimc...

Welcome to the forums. I'd love to hear what your connection to scoliosis is. Do you have it, have a child with it, or are you some sort of practitioner?

Thanks!

--Linda

Dingo
01-12-2010, 09:14 PM
This study of 2,387 children found no connection between athletics and Scoliosis.

September 2008: Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis and Exercising: Is There Truly a Liaison? (http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/2008/09150/Adolescent_Idiopathic_Scoliosis_and_Exercising__Is .6.aspx)


Results. In 99 cases (athletes: 48, nonathletes: 51), AIS was radiographically confirmed (Cobb angle >10°). No statistically significant difference was found between athlete and nonathlete adolescents (P = 0.842), athlete and nonathlete boys (P = 0.757), and athlete and nonathlete girls (P = 0.705), as far as the prevalence of AIS was concerned. The mean value of the Cobb angle of the main scoliotic curve was not statistically different between male athletes and nonathletes (P = 0.45) and female athletes and nonathletes (P = 0.707). With the Cobb threshold reset at 20°, no statistically significant differences were detected either.

250,000 years of natural selection ensures that any normal level of physical/sports activity is going to be safe, if not beneficial for children.

Extreme, competitive athletics may be a different story. And of course athletics that require children to move in an "unnatural" way could in theory be harmful. However only a tiny percentage of children engage in that type of activity.

turtlelover
02-08-2010, 06:12 AM
The practice of physical and sporting activity in teenagers with idiopathic scoliosis is related to the curve type.

Meyer C, Haumont T, Gauchard GC, Leheup B, Lascombes P, Perrin PP.
Nancy-University, University Henri Poincaré, Nancy 1, Balance Control & Motor Performance, UFR STAPS, Villers-lès-Nancy, France.

Idiopathic scoliosis (IS) is correlated with a muscular disequilibrium of the spine and an alteration of balance control, efficient performance of the latter being necessary for physical and sporting activities (PSA). However, the type of the IS curve has different effects on muscle and on balance control according to the primary curve location. This study aimed to determine the relationships between IS type and PSA practice. One hundred and sixty-nine girl adolescents with IS [double major curve (DMC) scoliosis: n=74; single major curve (SMC) scoliosis: n=95] and 100 age-matched control girl adolescents completed an epidemiological questionnaire informing on curricular and extracurricular PSA. Adolescents with DMC scoliosis practised more PSA than those with SMC scoliosis. Moreover, among all PSA referenced, gymnastic activities are the most practiced PSA both in IS teenagers, whatever the curve type, and in controls. Besides, teenagers practising gymnastics were more numerous in those with DMC scoliosis than those with SMC scoliosis and controls. The highest proportion of adolescents with DMC scoliosis practising PSA, especially gymnastics, could be linked to the fact that they are less subject to scoliosis-related biomechanical repercussions leading to a better balance control, which is essential in these PSA.

PMID: 18248544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

turtlelover
02-08-2010, 06:20 AM
Spine (Phila Pa 1976). 1990 Feb;15(2):61-4.
Handedness and scoliosis convexity: a reappraisal.
Goldberg C, Dowling FE.

Department of Orthopaedics, Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, Crumlin, Dublin, Ireland.
The handedness of 254 girls with idiopathic scoliosis, minimum age eight years at diagnosis, attending Our Lady's Hospital was related to their scoliosis convexity. Curve patterns were assigned to right or left on the basis of the convexity of the low thoracic component only, regardless of primary curve. The curve pattern matched handedness in 82%. Of 228 right-handed children, 197 had a right convex curve pattern; of 26 left-handed children, 12 had a left convex pattern. The correlation between scoliosis configuration and handedness was statistically significant. This is in contrast to the findings of previous studies, which have considered convexity only, without reference to the configuration of the whole spine. The implication of this finding is that scoliosis is associated with cortical functions.


I have NO qualifications to make comment on any study, but I don't understand why the researchers assumed scoliosis was associated with cortical function. My not everyday muscle use?

Bigbluefrog
03-10-2010, 05:34 PM
so most of the right handed children would have a major curve on the rt thoracic?

tonibunny
03-10-2010, 06:08 PM
Looks like the majority of righthanded children had a right thoracic curve. But then, so did over half of lefthanded children too.....I don't understand how they have decided that "the implication of this finding is that scoliosis is associated with cortical functions."

12 out of 26 children isn't 82% is it? When you break it down, only about 46% of the lefthanded kids had lefthanded curves - ie less than half of them!

Dingo
03-11-2010, 09:21 AM
tonibunny


12 out of 26 children isn't 82% is it? When you break it down, only about 46% of the lefthanded kids had lefthanded curves - ie less than half of them!

On a possibly unrelated topic hair whorls (http://www.kchristieh.com/blog/images/whorl.jpg) seem to correlate with handedness. Wiki: Hair whorl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_whorl)

Roughly 90% of right handed people have a clockwise hair whorl while 10% have a counterclockwise hair whorl.

Among left handed people the number is evenly split. Half have a clockwise whorl, the other half have a counterclockwise whorl.

Is that roughly the same way curve types were distributed?

BTW I should add that nobody knows for sure what causes left and right handedness. To complicate matters further disease and misdevelopment can trigger left handedness. For example half of all premature babies are born left handed and children exposed to meningitis are much more likely to be left handed (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17981716). In addition older mothers are more likely to have left handed babies (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg12717262.800-science-older-mothers-have-more-lefthanded-babies-.html) probably because they have more difficult pregnancies.

tonibunny
03-11-2010, 02:45 PM
Now that is really interesting Dingo! Yes, it is roughly the same as the curve patterns.

Here in the UK, you sometimes get people who appear to be righthanded but are in fact naturally lefthanded. This is because until quite recently, being lefthanded was discouraged and children were forced to write with their right hands. This was the case with my boyfriend, who had all sorts of problems with dyspraxia and finally had various tests done when he was in his 30s - and it turned out that he was naturally very left-orientated. The educational psychologist who tested him said that he might not have ended up with so many problems if he'd been allowed to use his left hand as his brain wished him to.

Did this ever happen outside the UK? If so, I wonder if it has any bearing on these sorts of results. If so, the correlation between righthandedness and right thoracic curves might not be so strong.

Dingo
03-11-2010, 08:57 PM
Tonibunny


Did this ever happen outside the UK?

My uncle who is about 70 years old was born left handed but was trained to be right handed in school. He grew up in America so retraining lefties must have been a worldwide phenomenon.

mamamax
03-13-2010, 08:57 AM
Tonibunny - Yeah! I'm one of them - tried to be a lefty and was retrained to be a righty. Maybe this explains a lot :D

Wondering how this factors in - and doubt there is any study of it.

Bigbluefrog
04-17-2010, 07:24 PM
We are seeing a chiropractor in addition to bracing and PT therapy for her scoliosis.

One day I thought her curve looked worse...the curves seemed increased....
the concave areas more pronounced.

the chiro...explained the muscles are stretched on the concave side and tight on the convex side. He rec. stimulating the relaxed fibers of muscle with massage/ tapping. I started to do that 3 times a day...and it looks better.

Why aren't more doctors interested in this asymmetrical dysfunction with muscle fibers with regards to idiopathic scoliosis. I can see a difference after 3 days.
http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/Abstract/1984/05000/Paraspinal_Muscle_Imbalance_in_Adolescent.8.aspx
And I have read an article regarding the study of the muscle fibers being different after taking a biopsy of both sides.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/hb81tujr8flvvj4a/

michael1960
04-17-2010, 08:55 PM
Bigbluefrog

I just read your post. We are also seeing a chiropractor, doing some PT, and bracing (two braces) too.

I find your comments very interesting regarding the "curves seemed increased". And the chiro's explanation that the muscles are stretched on the concave side (inside part of the curve) and tight on the convex side (outside part of the curve). Can you elaborate on this? We have worked with 4 orthopedic surgeons and 3 chiros and I get different explanations of muscles being stretched vs tight. Some have said the muscles on the concave side are tight and need to be stretched and the muscles on the convex side are stretched and need to be tightened.

I read the studies in the links you provided but really did not understand the relevance (probably my lack of understanding the muscle structure).

So, to make sure I understand, the chiro had you massage/tapping the muscles on the convex side (right side of the spine for someone with a right thoracic curve).

We will be doing another 2 week treatment in June to see if we can continue to reduce the curve (right thoracic curve).

I would appreciate you sharing as much as you can on your chiro treatment either here, in a new thread, or send me a PM. And any further explanation of the stretched vs tight muscles. Also, when discussing therapy, what is the recommendation on what muscles should be "stretched" and what muscles should be "strengthened".

Sorry for all the questions but we have experienced something very similar to you when using a chiro and I would like to learn from your experience. It may help us in our upcoming 2 week treatment.

Thank You
Michael