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Bigbluefrog
11-01-2009, 11:36 PM
I am looking for clinical studies showing that schroth works

Anyone find any clinical studies in the united states?

I only found this:
http://www.schrothmethod.com/index.php/clinical-scoliosis-studies

INteresting but not exactly what I am looking for..

Pooka1
11-02-2009, 05:48 AM
I am looking for clinical studies showing that schroth works


Everyone has been looking for those. Nobody has found them yet.

Schroth been around for several decades which is NOT a point in their favor at this time because they have had ample time to prove their approach works and they have not.

I sent the Schroth claims to Quackwatch a while back. Here is the thread if you are interested... it deals with their publications which iis what you asked about...

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8179

A main proponent of Schroth is Herr Doktor Weiss, an orthopedic surgeon and grandson of the inventor of Schroth. He has published at least one quacky "debate" article that doesn't acknowledge the several health reasons for surgery but instead claims fusion is only needed for cosmetic reasons in all but the most severe cases. I would like to ask him why all the insurance companies are paying out six figures for cosmetic surgery when they don't pay for any other cosmetic surgery.

A poster here says that Schroth is considered fringe even in its native Germany and that there are plenty of folks walking around loose with large curves. If Schroth obviously worked, neither of those results would obtain.

Just my opinion.

bas2101
11-02-2009, 08:07 AM
Anyone truly doing their research isn't going to rely on Quackwatch for advice. While there may be some valid points on the site, its head, Stephen Barrett, is a retired psychologist, not an expert on the innumerable alternatives he so quickly dismisses.

tonibunny
11-02-2009, 08:26 AM
They do have a lot of experts providing the advice though, it's not just Stephen Barrett. This is a list of their medical advisors:

http://www.quackwatch.org/09Advisors/medadvbd.html


It looks quite impressive to me, they have many professors of medicine there.

I wish the Schroth chaps would get their act together and get some independent clinical studies done! The therapy certainly seems to help with pain and posture and there are a lot of anecdotal reports that it prevents the progression of curves.

bas2101
11-02-2009, 08:37 AM
There are many physicians and surgeons on their board. And, I am sure they make some valid points. But, there are no scoliosis specialists from what I see.

bas2101
11-02-2009, 08:38 AM
I agree that Schroth studies need to be updated. But, that doesn't give Quackwatch authority to dismiss it.

tonibunny
11-02-2009, 09:04 AM
It's true that they don't appear to have scoliosis specialists, but as they are well-respected and very experienced medical professors I'm happy with their abilities to assess the clinical info that is currently available on Schroth, as per what they sent to Pooka.

They haven't written a page stating that Schroth is a quack technique, they've simply given their professional opinion in response to Pooka's query, and have drawn the same conclusions that sceptical people here have - that there aren't any truly independent studies yet.

It really, really would be fantastic if they could get these done! Out of all the alternative techniques, Schroth seems to be the one that is on to something. However they have opened themselves up to scepticism by not producing these studies, especially since the technique has been around for so long.

Pooka1
11-02-2009, 09:28 AM
Anyone truly doing their research isn't going to rely on Quackwatch for advice. While there may be some valid points on the site, its head, Stephen Barrett, is a retired psychologist, not an expert on the innumerable alternatives he so quickly dismisses.

Dr. Barrett did not do the review. He asked an expert in the field to do the review. It is not clear if the expert who did the review is on the board or not.

As Quackwatch is part of the solution, not part of the problem, it strains credulity to think he would ask a non-expert to rebview Schroth's publications.

Pooka1
11-02-2009, 09:29 AM
There are many physicians and surgeons on their board. And, I am sure they make some valid points. But, there are no scoliosis specialists from what I see.

I never said Dr. Barrett nor anyone on his present board did the review.

You merely assumed that.

Pooka1
11-02-2009, 09:32 AM
I agree that Schroth studies need to be updated. But, that doesn't give Quackwatch authority to dismiss it.

Quackwatch didn't dismiss Schroth.

They simply made some (rather obvious) comments about Schroth's publications to date.

I always find it interesting that honest facts stated about alternative treatments are often viewed as dismissive rather than factual.

Just because folks want an alternative treatment to be effective and to be able to avoid surgery doesn't make it so. An alternative treatment doesn't HAVE to exist just by virtue of people not wanting surgery. I think this point escapes many folks.

Pooka1
11-02-2009, 09:34 AM
It really, really would be fantastic if they could get these done!

At some point when a method has been around ~90 years and there is still no evidence and it is being touted by someone with medical training (Weiss) and it is still considered a fringe treatment in the country oif origin, the lack of evidence becomes conspicuous by its absence.

tonibunny
11-02-2009, 09:51 AM
At some point when a method has been around ~90 years and there is still no evidence and it is being touted by someone with medical training (Weiss) and it is still considered a fringe treatment in the country oif origin, the lack of evidence becomes conspicuous by its absence.

Yes, that is a massive problem. It makes people very suspicious as to why they haven't been producing independent controlled studies. If it works, what have they got to hide?

Bigbluefrog
11-02-2009, 10:57 AM
Check out the links to photos...the evidence is in the picture. It s very easy to get on the lecture path..but what I want is written information.
WE started schroth therapy, unfortunately Ins is not covering it. Due to no united states clinical studies, doesn't matter if Spain and Europe has studies...although I would be interested in reading those as well.

Exercises are proven to be a way to help with bracing and correcting the spine, it is helpful, and reading more and more on Schroth method and SEAS exercises...clinical studies prove that combined with exercise therapy has improved outcome.

read the study:
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/3/1/20

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18432435?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

scoliosissos.com

http://scoliosissystems.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/sco01.jpg

Scoliosis and Exercise

Then just when you think you have the answers something else comes into the mix.

My feeling is this, on this forum of all the people using Schroth therapy and are having success speaks volumes to me...more so than a study or paper.
Its the insurance co. that is being difficult.

Long term study on Boston brace is not encouraging either...that is covered by ins. It has an increase average of 6 degrees after weaning.

My brain hurts...lol
Quack watch interesting..I will read into it, last time I read up on it found it to be very closed minded...strictly western medicine

tonibunny
11-02-2009, 11:06 AM
The anecdotal reports of Schroth working are very encouraging, which is why I find it so frustrating that they haven't been getting independent studies done! If they did, maybe the world's scoliosis surgeons would take them more seriously.

This study on SEAS is encouraging too, but note that it concerns an adult rather than a growing child. I was in touch with Hans Weiss a few years back; he told me that for children with very progressive curves who are going through growth spurts, a well-fitting custom-made brace is needed because the Schroth exercises alone cannot always hold the curves. It's probably a good idea to bear this in mind, and perhaps get in touch with Dr Weiss if you need more clarification. He speaks and writes excellent English.

Bigbluefrog
11-02-2009, 11:11 AM
A Rare Admission from the Orthopedic Community

Dr. Charles Edwards II of the Maryland Spine Center at the Mercy Medical Center recently made a rather startling, yet not surprising admission in the Baltimore Sun newspaper. The Article entitled “Exercise Can Reduce Scoliosis Symptoms” does a relatively accurate job of profiling the disease and Dr. Edwards discusses various methodologies of managing and treating scoliosis. As the title implies active rehabilitation of the spine can and will reduce symptoms of scoliosis, but the article omits is that active rehabilitation of the spine can reduce the scoliosis itself. I have seen and read many of the studies showing how exercise protocols that include core strengthening exercises like sit-ups, chin-ups, and pelvic tilts have no effect on scoliotic curvatures, but those studies have over-looked on critical aspect of the disease.
The Baltimore Sun June 8th: "Exercise can reduce scoliosis symptoms"

The Baltimore Sun June 8th: "Exercise can reduce scoliosis symptoms"

Scoliosis is primarily a disease of neurological control of the spine in response to gravity. In short, the brain is incorrectly perceiving gravity and therefore mis-orienting the spine accordingly. This is why scoliosis is 5 times more common in the blind population, but only 25% as likely in the hearing impaired population. However, neurological control doesn’t seem to be the only factor involved in the progression of the disease. Spinal curvatures under 20 degrees have an approximately 22% risk of progression, but the risk of progression jumps to 68% for curvatures 20-29 degrees. This dramatic jump in progression rates can probably be contributed to the increased “coil down” effect seen at this stage of the disease. No one seems to know why the “coil down” effect occurs, but it appears to be connected to adverse mechanical tension on the spinal cord. This also explains why the bending and rotation patterns appear to become “uncoupled” when the curvature reaches or surpasses the 30 degree angle mark. The normal coupled bending and rotation pattern normally forces the spinal cord over the outside of the curvature which increase tension on the spinal cord, but maintains a relatively low amount of torque in the spinal curvature; however, when the spinal curvature reaches 30 degrees or larger, the bending and rotation pattern become uncoupled and the rotation component begins turning towards the inside part of the curvature. While this has the effect of reducing the tension on the spinal cord by allowing the cord to travel through the inside part of the curvature, but has the negative effect of creating a massive amounts torque in the spinal curvature. This has a tremendously negative effect on the curvature and dramatically increases the “coil down” effect and curve progression.

.....www.fixscoliosis.com/tag/scoliosis/

tonibunny
11-02-2009, 11:24 AM
The above is the interpretation of the Baltimore Sun's article by a CLEAR Institute chiropractor called Will Kalla. Here is the original article in the newspaper itself - the doctor seems to be an advocate of traditional methods. Remember that "symptoms" can include pain and stiffness, which we all know exercise can help with :)

http://www.fixscoliosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ExercisesCanReduceScoliosisSymptoms.jpg

bas2101
11-02-2009, 01:02 PM
"Quackwatch didn't dismiss Schroth."

Perhaps not outright, but when searching Schroth on their site, a textbook scoliosis treatment page come up with some pretty misleading and blatantly wrong information:

"Curvatures that measures between 10 and 20 degrees bear watching. These behave much the same as those under 10 degrees (and thus would cause no problem later in life), except that they may progress during growth. Therefore, if a patient has finished growing and has a curve less than 20 degrees, no further treatment or follow-up is needed."

"Treatment options include bracing and surgery. Bracing works well for curves of up to 45 degrees. The smaller the curve, the more effective the brace. Beyond 45 degrees, a brace will be ineffective, and surgery is the treatment of choice."

"The mainstay of scoliosis management is early detection. If the curve progresses to the point that treatment is needed, a brace is prescribed. In 90% of such cases, a brace will work very well."

This is scary stuff, and was written by an orthopedic surgeon, not specializing in scoliosis-clearly. Which is why I would not use Quackwatch as part of the scoliosis solution.

Bigbluefrog
11-04-2009, 06:30 PM
The above is the interpretation of the Baltimore Sun's article by a CLEAR Institute chiropractor called Will Kalla. Here is the original article in the newspaper itself - the doctor seems to be an advocate of traditional methods. Remember that "symptoms" can include pain and stiffness, which we all know exercise can help with :)

http://www.fixscoliosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/ExercisesCanReduceScoliosisSymptoms.jpg

Exactly, It makes sense to do the exercises. So why isn't that part of the solution instead of watch and wait?

If you correct posture and movements with the back to help align the and elongate the spine. The derotation of the spine gets tricky and the brace and PT would be beneficial.

The obvious is the spine is very dynamic and movable. If the problem lies with neurological and physiological it only makes sense to correct the brains preconception of positioning along with realigning the spine manually and hopefully avoid surgery.

Wondering who has done PT or Schroth? The evidence is that by doing the correct type of exercises improves the quality of life.

tonibunny
11-04-2009, 06:51 PM
I guess I was trying to say that most (sensible) types of physical exercise can help with pain and stiffness, whether you have scoliosis or not :) Here in the UK, if you have those symptoms you can be referred for general physio on the NHS. I've done that when I've needed it on occasion and it has helped enormously, but I keep fit and do a lot of exercise myself (cycling, swimming and mountain climbing) so I don't have too much trouble with pain anymore and my quality of life is certainly improved.

I have a couple of friends who have reported that Schroth has helped them to manage scoliosis pain and to build their core stability muscles so they stand taller and look better posturally. They can't tell if they would have had similar results if they had had the same amount of ordinary physio in the same intense timescale, but they're very happy that they tried it :)

Bigbluefrog
11-06-2009, 02:12 PM
I would have to agree, we need a study showing the results...so we can get insurance coverage. This is what is needed to make the medical world take notice.
Studies that I would love to read up on would be Spinecor...long term results..independent study not related to the company or with financial interest.
Schroth , physical therapy...and another in conjunction with the brace. chenaeu brace.

I have to believe there is more than just surgery out there.

the brace theory makes some sense, but its not complete. The one thing that was mentioned about Spinecor is the fact the brace wraps around the shoulders and legs. This may restrict elongation of the spine. anyone have input on that?

Of course if the degree is at a point and surgery is the only answer, I would still hesitate because of the seriousness of surgery...it always hard to make that choice.

currently we are waiting and watching...:( stopped doing schroth due to cost out of pocket was substantial.

We will be focusing on her diabetes, starting pump therapy this month.:)

I don't like waiting...hoping that her scoliosis doesn't progress significantly

edd
11-22-2009, 07:40 AM
after 2-1/2 years of my daughter doing schroth exercise we finally can claim a progress that is more than the 5 degrees margin of error. her last x-ray had shown 30T-30L (from 37T-35L). her hump due to rib rotation is not visible now than before, we can't see the hump unless we ask her to bend.

it may not be much reduction, but it gives us hope and encouragement.

mamamax
11-22-2009, 01:25 PM
The one thing that was mentioned about Spinecor is the fact the brace wraps around the shoulders and legs. This may restrict elongation of the spine. anyone have input on that?


I do have some input on that. Strap placements (which are attached to a bolero) vary according to curvature patterns. I have a right Thoracic curve and a left thoracolumbar curve. Placement definatley does not restrict elongation for me - as was evidenced by immediate before and after x-rays and height measurements.

AILEA
11-23-2009, 09:58 AM
Congrats Edd,

Is your dd wearing a brace too??

edd
11-23-2009, 01:24 PM
Congrats Edd,

Is your dd wearing a brace too??

Thanks Ailea,

Yes, she was wearing cheneau brace but her doctor asked her to stop wearing it during her last visit.

hope404
11-24-2009, 01:37 AM
Bluefrog,

Very interesting ideas you bring up.....

When my daughter did PT, one of my frustrations was the neurological aspect of the disease was not addressed.

My daughter's brain, no doubt ,does not orient her spine corrrectly in response to gravitational forces. Neuromuscular rehabilitation has to be a key component of any alternative therapy. Now if someone would just figure out HOW to take NMR principles and make them work in scoliosis cases.

Pooka1
11-24-2009, 05:32 AM
My daughter's brain, no doubt ,does not orient her spine corrrectly in response to gravitational forces.

Judging from the universal difficulty people have in learning to ride were absolute balance and symmetry are required, I'd say virtually everyone's brain has the same problem.

And yet most don't have scoliosis. Maybe it's a matter of degree though again, most people who try never make it out of the lower levels of dressage at least. There is a reason for that and it seems neurological given how people just can't seem to sense where their body is enough for riding without endless hours of practice and correction and repeating that.

People who ride starting when they are kids do better in general but I chalk that up to simply more wet saddle blankets. Some chalk it up to more pliable bodies and minds and there is something to be said for that. You can't think your way up the levels... you have to feel your way up. Kids don't try to think whereas the great run of adults will get bogged down in it.

I think most of this is relevant to your comment.