Clear video - claims to cure scoliosis with hand-held jigsaw (in part)

[Pooka1]

http://www.precision-spine.com/scoliosis/

3:19 - Modified hand held jigsaw "explained."

4:56 - Claims their techniques (hand-held jigsaw being one part) can cure scoliosis.

[titaniumed]

Please remember that the jig saw is "HEAVILY" modified.

That's a bogus statement if I ever heard one.

Its funny how much marketing "gimmicks" come into play in today's world of advertising. It is happening in many different areas and seems to be happening more and more these days. Anything for the sale, and all that matters is the bottom line.

Auto manufacturers that use the word "cockpit" in describing the drivers area of a car, is one that I get a kick out of. If you were in court, and used "cockpit", the statement would be clarified, even though its definition includes the drivers area of a car.

Cockpit means, the pilots area of an airplane, or spacecraft. Not a Volkswagen beetle

"Your honor, I saw the train coming from the cockpit of my Volkswagen beetle"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I always thought that the word "correction" meant to make accurate. In other words, the word is black or white. Either its correct or its not.

"Effective correction" means a complete 100% restoration. Not a minimum 25% improvement in Cobb angles.

Just thought I would make a "correction" to the statement "effective correction" from the website.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. English is a tough language.
Ed
PS, I do drive a VW, and have had thousands of Chiropractic adjustments for the last 25 years.

[Pooka1]

Ti Ed, are you saying my thread title is a bogus statement?

I wanted to use the word "modified" in the title and not just in the body but the title was already long and I was afraid it would cut off. I didn't know if I could fit all the words needed to explain this new and wondrous medical advance on the scoliosis scene. :D

[titaniumed]

Yes, You forgot the word "heavily". LOL

Michael Jacksons face was not modified, it was "heavily modified" Big difference there.

I dont think that the 'Clear" method is all that new. Its been around for a while now.

After trying all sorts of non-surgical techniques through the years being afraid of surgery, I have to admit that it did buy me time. My surgical decision came from the intense pain that I was in. Big curves when older can be quite painful.

If someone is afraid and wants to buy time, and can get pain relief through any alternative methods, thats great. I reccomend ocean therapy, since its free.

I would not reccomend hitting the ocean "heavily". One could sink.
Ed

[Pooka1]

Hey Ti Ed,

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. :)

I didn't mean to imply Clear was new but I think heavily modified hand-held jig saws might be a new component of this approach, yes? :D

And speaking of not being new, I can't seem to find when Clear was started. If it is more than a few years ago as I suspect it is, then they have some 'spainin' to do about not having and published evidence of efficacy to stuff or reduce curves permanently.

I believe you and others who claim PT helps relieve pain in adults. I am targeting the more effusive claims with my skepticism. :D

[LindaRacine]

Hi...

We started talking about it here in early 2006 I think. I found a Clear practitioner who was willing to treat a patient at no charge, and would only get paid if she could significantly reduce her curve, which would be monitored by an SRS physician. We found the chiropractor, patient, and physician, had everything ready to go, and then the chiropractor disappeared.

--Linda

[Pooka1]

Hi...

We started talking about it here in early 2006 I think. I found a Clear practitioner who was willing to treat a patient at no charge, and would only get paid if she could significantly reduce her curve, which would be monitored by an SRS physician. We found the chiropractor, patient, and physician, had everything ready to go, and then the chiropractor disappeared.

"I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find gambling going on in this establishment!"

:D

[titaniumed]

Sharon

I know you don't disagree, I'm just focusing on words used in advertising.

I have no idea about the jig saw thing. I do know that they use vibrating chairs. Seems like a viable concept, and it probably feels good. What it is worth? I don't know. I first heard about it about 5 years ago. I'm not interested in Clear.

It is great that NSF is available. Years ago, the dark ages, we had to wing it..... I never met anyone with scoli till I met with Suzy recently down at a scoli meeting in Sacramento. 3% of the population has scoli, and I went 33 years without meeting any others with scoli. Hard to believe, isn't it?

Anyone who has scoliosis, or parents of scolis, really needs to be at least reading on this forum. Its an invaluable learning and communicative tool. Thanks to Joe and Linda

I notice quite a few new members that have recently been diagnosed. Its been quite a few years since I was dxd (1974) and I feel for them. I had many years to think about things and I see people making decisions very quickly, which is scary. The most difficult decisions of ones life, need careful consideration. As an example,using this forum helps with people that are unaware of "word play" used regardless of who they are.

A little bit of greed is ok, too much is bad. That goes for everybody. Oh yeah, add the word power to that statement also.

My surgeon went to school for 19 years. His school debt is phenomenal! It takes a long long time to pay off that principal and interest. When he refused to do my surgeries in the beginning, I felt that was a good sign. He could have said "lets bang it out tomorrow" but he wanted me to fully understand and he wanted me online. After about 3 years of visits, and several meetings, we both finally decided to go and do my surgery. There is an example of not being greedy. He also thought about my spine for 3 years before my operation..........

I'm not saying wait 3 years, its just what happened to me.
Ed

[Pooka1]

I'm not saying wait 3 years, its just what happened to me.
Ed

I completely understand waiting in your case. It was a big decision for many reasons.

But in the case of my one kid for sure and likely for the other, we had no choice. There was nothing to debate. Savannah's curve was never documented to move less than 5* a month and that went on for the entire observation period until surgery (7 months). Surgery can't credibly be called a "choice" given her circumstances. Willow's curve was start and stop but it achieved lift off velocity in the last 6 months before her surgery (3-4 degrees a month).

Talk about word play. :D

[titaniumed]

Im talking about being diagnosed and setting the surgery date 30 days later.

4 weeks. Ive put more thought into switching my cats food.

His name was BK. (bad kitty) 33 lbs

Ed

[titaniumed]

He died you know.

I must have picked the wrong food.

Ed

[Pooka1]

Firstly, you had a 33 pound cat? :eek:

Damn.

Secondly, well I guess some people don't realize they have a curve until it is well within surgical territory and moving like a freight train. They don't have a choice but to get surgery relatively quickly so the decision is easy.

[titaniumed]

Yup. 33 lbs With a head the size of a softball.

He would jump into my lap on my recliner and it was like getting hit with a bag of fertilizer. He would also do that to my guests. He was like Charlie the lonesome cougar. That was a 60s Disney movie.

He would let himself out. I would come home and the front door was wide open. I thought I was losing my mind till I saw him turn the deadbolt and twist the doorknob. I had to change the locks because of my cat. If I could have taught him to close the door, that would have been great. He would have made Letterman. He died in 1998, and I couldn't replace him.

Not everybody moves like a freight train...... I stood still for a long long time. About 20 years.
Savannahs 5 degree per month movement had to have been a hormone growth spurt issue. I don't know if adults ever move that fast.
Ed

[Pooka1]

Yup. 33 lbs With a head the size of a softball.

He would jump into my lap on my recliner and it was like getting hit with a bag of fertilizer. He would also do that to my guests. He was like Charlie the lonesome cougar. That was a 60s Disney movie.

He would let himself out. I would come home and the front door was wide open. I thought I was losing my mind till I saw him turn the deadbolt and twist the doorknob. I had to change the locks because of my cat. If I could have taught him to close the door, that would have been great. He would have made Letterman. He died in 1998, and I couldn't replace him.


He sounds wonderful! Did you really name him BK? Would love to see a picture.

Check this out...

http://catsthatarefat.wordpress.com/

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/06/20/caturday-felid-mr-peebles-world-smallest-cat/

I remember "Charlie the Lonesome Cougar" very well. :)

[tonibunny]

33lbs! That is SO huge, I thought my cat Monty was massive....he's 24lb of solid muscle and the size of a West Highland White terrier :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/tonibunny/Big_Monty_Picture_25_Jan_2004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/tonibunny/20092007Montyplayingthepianowebsize.jpg

Do you have any pics of your cat Ed? I'd love to see them!

(apologies for going off-topic btw)

[Pooka1]

33lbs! That is SO huge, I thought my cat Monty was massive....he's 24lb of solid muscle and the size of a West Highland White terrier :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/tonibunny/Big_Monty_Picture_25_Jan_2004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v28/tonibunny/20092007Montyplayingthepianowebsize.jpg

Do you have any pics of your cat Ed? I'd love to see them!

(apologies for going off-topic btw)

Those are great! Monty is growing up and getting big and learning to play an instrument! You must be so proud!

Thanks for posting that. I started this thread and am amending the topics to include, besides the use of heavily modified power tools to cure scoliosis,:

1. large cats
2. old Disney movies
3. galvanic action between various metals and alloys
4. Benny Hill video clips

Topics which remain out of bounds on this thread:

1. the germ theory of ALL known disease ever and always

:D

[titaniumed]

Tonibunny,

I would have to search for a pic. When I find one, I will scan and post it. Bk looked just like your cat, especially in the piano picture, only 20% larger.

He was a really cool cat and had great personality... for a cat. He didn't have any issues with large dogs either, and would establish what needed to be established with his claws and it would happen like a lightning strike. I know that lifting him contributed to my scoliosis. Please everyone, stop lifting your heavy cats.

Sharon

You know how it goes, there is only so much you can say about jig saws. Its not the answer we want, so I deviated. I'm tired of waiting for cures. They need to step it up a bit more, and make up for the last 8 years.

So back to "Charlie the lonesome cougar" wasn't that a great film? LOL

The cascades of Washington state are beautiful. I need to go back up there soon.

Ed

[tonibunny]

Oh, please do post a pic of your cat! He sounds amazing :D I'm not surprised that he was a tabby and white, most of the biggest moggies I've seen seem to have this colouring. I think they must have a tiger gene in there somewhere!

[hope404]

Pooka1...

the modified jigsaw is used in the mix step of CLEAR....(mix, fix, set)
it is used to soften and loosen up the tendons and ligaments...it makes the curve much more flexible(along with other techniques they use)

[hope404]

I really don't think the big beef with CLEAR is that chiro's are the main guys trained in the technique(mix, fix, set)....

nor is the big beef the Mix step(making the curve more flexible)

nor is the big beef the Fix step(getting the curve to reduce...bracing clearly can reduce a curve..similiar to the CLEAR traction chair)

the big beef I do believe is....... Can the involuntary postural muscles be rehabilitated in such a way(neuromuscular rehabilitation...SET step) to get them to HOLD the correction????

CLEAR is attempting what noone has tried before and I applaud them for it....let see if the reductions hold "long term".

[hope404]

just went back and read a bit more of what the chatter was about...

hardly any chiro's are trained in intensive CLEAR treatment...I think 9 in the USA....so there just aren't going to be oodles of people running around talking about CLEAR. The ones I know who have tried it....go home with their great results and don't tell a soul......


if CLEAR is onto something....eventually the scoliosis world will hear about it...I just know, unfortunately, it will take time.

[Pooka1]

CLEAR is attempting what noone has tried before and I applaud them for it....let see if the reductions hold "long term".

Well if it is brand new and totally experimental then:

a. how do they know it will work, and
b. why are they charging people exorbitant amounts for PT and traction chairs when they don't know if any of it will work?

Do they admit they are experimenting on people and don't know if it will work? Do they refer to the patients as "guinea pigs?"

Do they call their approach experimental?

Are they honest about any of this?

[Pooka1]

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2009/11/03/funny-pictures-pumpkins/

[LindaRacine]

I really don't think the big beef with CLEAR is that chiro's are the main guys trained in the technique(mix, fix, set)....

nor is the big beef the Mix step(making the curve more flexible)

nor is the big beef the Fix step(getting the curve to reduce...bracing clearly can reduce a curve..similiar to the CLEAR traction chair)

the big beef I do believe is....... Can the involuntary postural muscles be rehabilitated in such a way(neuromuscular rehabilitation...SET step) to get them to HOLD the correction????

CLEAR is attempting what noone has tried before and I applaud them for it....let see if the reductions hold "long term".
This sounds an awful lot like a recipe!

The beef, in my mind, is that none of their claims have been backed up with even a single case of proof. And, there's no evidence that things like making a curve more flexible is a good thing. It could be, but there's no proof.

--Linda

[mamamax]

just went back and read a bit more of what the chatter was about...

hardly any chiro's are trained in intensive CLEAR treatment...I think 9 in the USA....so there just aren't going to be oodles of people running around talking about CLEAR. The ones I know who have tried it....go home with their great results and don't tell a soul......


if CLEAR is onto something....eventually the scoliosis world will hear about it...I just know, unfortunately, it will take time.

I agree Hope. If Clear is onto something - we will hear more about it. This is not a treatment I have tried but it is a treatment that some have had reported success with. I correspond from time to time with a practitioner of it who certainly is both intelligent and articulate - and open to ALL treatments that hold any answers to the big puzzle of scoliosis treatment. We will see what the future holds - till then, too early to completely dismiss something that is providing success for some. The combined education, dedication and self sacrifice of all who focus their energies on the answers needed will all lead to the best future treatments. Because of that, any success found in any current treatment deserves the closest of inspection and documentation towards the collective solution.

[Ballet Mom]

Clear...

Can anyone look at the before and after x-rays from the Clear practitioners on their websites and see any difference in the spines whatsoever? I see the Cobb angle degrees written on them are lower after Clear, but if I ignore that, I have to say, I cannot see any difference in the spines themselves.

Perhaps an investigative reporter, or the orthopedics profession itself, could hire an orthopedist and investigate Clear's before and after claims about Cobb angle reduction. It would be interesting if they could verify the claims even temporarily, let alone permanently.

Obviously our government doesn't try to protect people anymore, so maybe that is the way to verify Clear's claims. If it works, great, if not....it's false advertising.

[tonibunny]

Do Chiropractors have to abide by a code of practice, or is there an independent regulatory body that keeps an eye on US chiro clinics? Here in the UK we have various regulatory bodies for healthcare professionals, one of which is the General Chiropractic Council. Healthcare clinics of all kinds are required to register with the CareQuality Commission and abide by their rules and regulations.

[Ballet Mom]

Clear...

Obviously our government doesn't try to protect people anymore, so maybe that is the way to verify Clear's claims. If it works, great, if not....it's false advertising.


Or should I say if it works, great, if not....it's false advertising (at the very least).

[Ballet Mom]

There's a case on the fixscoliosis forum that is run by the Clear group and they're talking about treating an eight year old girl that has Cobb angles of 96 and 48 and they, of course, are claiming they reduced them greatly and will continue to during their treatment of her, and how exciting it was going to be to watch it. (Hope 404 you should be ashamed of yourself for promoting these guys).

This poor girl should have been referred to a public clinic or Shriner's for treatment. This is criminal in my belief, and whoever the appropriate authorities are should be being notified about what appears to be the unlicensed practice of medicine. Serious, life-threatening damage appears to be being done by chiropractors. Anyone know where this should be reported to, to be investigated by the appropriate authorities?

http://www.fixscoliosis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121

[LindaRacine]

There's a case on the fixscoliosis forum that is run by the Clear group and they're talking about treating an eight year old girl that has Cobb angles of 96 and 48 and they, of course, are claiming they reduced them greatly and will continue to during their treatment of her, and how exciting it was going to be to watch it. (Hope 404 you should be ashamed of yourself for promoting these guys).

This poor girl should have been referred to a public clinic or Shriner's for treatment. This is criminal in my belief, and whoever the appropriate authorities are should be being notified about what appears to be the unlicensed practice of medicine. Serious, life-threatening damage appears to be being done by chiropractors. Anyone know where this should be reported to, to be investigated by the appropriate authorities?

http://www.fixscoliosis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121
One of the worst cases of scoliosis I've ever seen was a teenager whose mother believed what she was told by a chiropractor, that he was reducing the child's curve with every treatment. How she could have been blind to such a massive rib hump is beyond me. When the state finally stepped in and forced the mother to take her child to an orthopaedist, the curve was huge, as were the multiple surgeries that the child had to undergo.

If someone with a small curve wants to see a chiropractor on a regular basis, I say they should go for it, although I personally don't think it should be covered by medical insurance if the purpose of the visits is to reduce or stop the progression of one's curves, as there's zero proof that that can be done.

--Linda