Success! Down to 24 degrees!

[Mom_15]

We went for our 18 month check up last Tuesday! Good News! My daughter's curve is back down to 24 degrees!

As background, my daughter was diagnosed with a Left Thorasic curve of 22 degrees at age 12. Our Orthepedic Specialist recommended the Boston Brace and 18 months later, her curve had increased to 42 degrees. He said that surgery was our only option. We chose to look for an alternative treatment. We discovered the Spinecor bracing system, and gave it a try.
Now it has been 18 months and we have seen wonderful improvement in the curvature! Back down to 24!

We are so excited! We wanted to share our good news with everyone!

[Pooka1]

That's really wonderful!

I am glad you posted that because I can't think of another testimonial about Spinecor producing that much reduction in AIS. So that's great from that standpoint also.

Accumulating data one testimonial at a time! We should all be able to publish in about 250 years!

[cactigirl96]

bracing didnt work 4 me, but thats great! she avoided my fate! my surgery went well but its last resort. congrats

[christine2]

excellent news Mom 15. How much more bracing time does your daughter have?

My daughter is having a out of brace x ry mid October. I am excited to see the results of that picture!

[concerned dad]

Congratulations Mom 15.
That is the story I had hoped to be posting here after my daughter tried the Spinecor. Alas, that was not to be the case.
Please, more details though.
Doing the math (and looking at your username) I am guessing she is 15 years old now, right?
Was the 24 an in brace or out of brace reading?
Obviously, both would be good, but, if it was out of brace, it would be fantastic.
Was she treated in Montreal or someplace else?
How does she compare the comfort of the SpineCor to the Boston Brace she wore for 18 months.

[LindaRacine]

We went for our 18 month check up last Tuesday! Good News! My daughter's curve is back down to 24 degrees!

As background, my daughter was diagnosed with a Left Thorasic curve of 22 degrees at age 12. Our Orthepedic Specialist recommended the Boston Brace and 18 months later, her curve had increased to 42 degrees. He said that surgery was our only option. We chose to look for an alternative treatment. We discovered the Spinecor bracing system, and gave it a try.
Now it has been 18 months and we have seen wonderful improvement in the curvature! Back down to 24!

We are so excited! We wanted to share our good news with everyone!

Hi...

Thanks for the post.

I'd love to hear what the plan for the future is. Will she stay in the brace indefinitely, or does she plan to discontinue at some point?

Regards,
Linda

[Mom_15]

Thanks to everyone for your responses.
This x-ray was completed 72 hours out of brace!
We not only wear the SpineCor brace for 20 hours a day 7 days a week, but we also visit a chiropractor every week and do excercises (mainly from Nintendo Wii Fit) and have recently started using a Yoga ball to help improve overall balance and posture. (she sits/bounces on it while watching TV, playing video games, and doing homework)

The SpineCor brace is much more comfortable than the Boston brace. It is less bulky, cooler, and easier to dance/move in. It is also easy to wash.

We are still wearing it, because she is not done growing yet and we go back in December for x-rays 1 week out of brace, and hopefully the results will continue to be this good!

Almost forgot to add -- she could be out of the brace in December, but most likely will switch to wearing it only at night for 3 months and then be out of it completely by March 2010. She was treated in Texas, not Montreal. 3 months ago we were 32 in brace, and there was no change in height between these x-rays!

[christine2]

Mom 37

That is just awesome. You are almost there!!! December is not that far away. I would assume there will be a weaning period.

We have an out of brace in mid October. My daughter is already whinning about having to be out of brace for 3 days. She says her back hurts when not in brace. Did you find that with your daughter too? Although being older she may have loved being out of brace.

[Pooka1]

This is the only testimonial I can recall reading anywhere that involves that kind of out of brace reduction in AIS.

The group in Texas that you are working with... is that a board-certified pediatric orthopedic surgery or is it the chiros if I might ask? I didn't realize there were accredited surgeons using Spinecor in Texas.

How much of the reduction would you say is due to the brace and how much due to the exercise?

I'm glad you got such great results.

[christine2]

Mom 15

The thing about the exersize ball is interesting. I purchased one for my daughter last year to practice back bends for cheerleading. The cheering did not pan out (fine with me) so we have not used the ball. I am going to start having her do the same (tv time, ect...) I have a brother who is a parapalegic. During his rehab that was big for him to increase his balance.



Thanks Chris

[Mom_15]

Christine2,
Yes, my daughter did have back pain when she first went without the brace as her muscles adjusted to holding their own instead of being held. I wish you best of luck in your upcoming appointment. Please let us know how it turns out.

Pooka1,
The Orthepedic Surgeon that had us in the Boston Brace said that surgery was our only option. He did not reccommed the SpineCor System. We see both a Certified Spinecor specialist and a Chiropractor. I can't say how much of our progress is due to the brace and how much to chiropractic treatments and how much to the excercises and stretches. We did see the curve progression stop in the brace with 1 - 2 degree improvement while she grew another inch, we did see 4 - 6 degree improvement when we added the chiropractic adjustments and the largest improvement came with the addition of the excercises (and she did grow any taller during this measurement period).

Thank you!

[Pooka1]

So you are no longer dealing with a pediatric orthopedic surgeon then if I understand your response?

It would be interesting to go back to the surgeon you saw who doesn't recommend Spinecor for another consult and show him the radiographs. Or have him shoot the next set. He might start prescribing it although the situation is confounded by the PT.

Although measuring a Cobb angle can seem straight forward, I think it would be interesting to have a surgeon or radiologist measure her Cobb angle to compare it to the chiros' measurement.

There are so few (none?) AIS - Spinecor successes that we hear about. That's why I think it would be great to tell the surgeon.

Your daughter is almost out of the woods so that's really great.

[Bigbluefrog]

Wonderful ....it would be interesting to see what the pediatric orthopedic surgeon said after seeing spinecor results.

I would love for all the specialist to stop competing and work together. after all what works..works and should benefit the child not the practitioner.

[Pooka1]

Wonderful ....it would be interesting to see what the pediatric orthopedic surgeon said after seeing spinecor results.

I would love for all the specialist to stop competing and work together. after all what works..works and should benefit the child not the practitioner.

I agree with going back to a pediatric orthopedic surgeon. I can't recall any kid on this forum who isn't at least also being seen by one in addition to any Spinecor chiros or regular chiros or PT people. Chiros simply don't have the necessary training to follow these cases and to even treat scoliosis. Even the Spinecor inventors are orthopedic surgeons.

In re competing... I don't see that the top pediatric guys have any competition whatsoever. None. They are the only game in town. Try scheduling surgery for a school vacation period. You better do it way ahead of time. These guys have more cases than they need it seems.

[Kid_15]

Many of you know mom 15 well thats my mom!!!!!!!! I was so happy to see my curvature decrease i go back in a week or 2

[Pooka1]

Many of you know mom 15 well thats my mom!!!!!!!! I was so happy to see my curvature decrease i go back in a week or 2

Hi Kid_15.

I'm glad you are doing so well.

Can I ask how often you get radiographs?

[Kid_15]

yes every 3 months may i ask why?

[Pooka1]

The reason I ask is that you are almost certainly done growing. If so, maybe you don't need so many radiographs any more. I don't know the procedure when a kid is done growing who isn't fused but I assumed you wouldn't need too many more radiographs and probably no more than every year or so but I don't know that. Not every three months! Do you know why you are getting so many radiographs when you are likely done growing? Maybe I'm missing something here.

A pediatric orthopedic surgeon (not a chiro) could radiograph your hand and tell you if you are done growing.

Also I know your mother mentioned you would be weaning off the brace in the next three months but will you also stop all the PT and chiro if you are done growing?

We really haven't had anyone come on here who reduced a 42* to a 24* with brace and PT and who was done growing so I just wondering what the plan was.

Also did the chiro or PT person tell you you permanently reduced your curve?

[mamamax]

Mom & Kid 15 - Congratulations on the highest order!!


Pooka -

As an adult Spinecor patient, I also receive xrays every three months (and I'm certainly done growing). The xrays confirm (1) any correction going on and (2) check to make sure no progression is going on. I do not think 4 low dose xrays per year are considered any big deal - and this is standard protocol for treatment.

[Pooka1]

So everyone in Spinecor and or PT is having 4 radiographs per year? The rest of their life?

Why is that necessary?

Kid_15 is very unusual in my opinion because she has an apparent decrease (according to a chiro not a surgeon) achieved by brace and PT through the growth spurt and she is likely now done growing. The brace can only hope to hold the curve but the open question is whether PT through the growth spurt can permanently reduce the curve. As you probably know, there is zero proof for this. The pediatric neurosurgeon Dr. Samdani is on that torso rotation video pointing out there is no proof of this ever happening. That's why I asked if the chiros were going to have her stop the PT if she is done growing. That would be proof the PT caused a permanent reduction in the curve though they would have to wait until the weaning period from the brace to end before determining that.

Would the curve go back to 42* when she stops brace and PT if now she is done growing? That is the $64,000 question. It would be huge if there was a permanant reduction as that would be a novel finding for a PT approach as far as I know.

[Pooka1]

I do not think 4 low dose xrays per year are considered any big deal - and this is standard protocol for treatment.

Okay but I better not see Hawes or Clear or whoever make reference to breast cancer or any cancer in relation to surgical fusion of scoliosis.

[mamamax]

Oh boy - here we go. The Spinecor xray thing: Treatment protocol is 2 years (standard) so that would find us with 8 xrays (give or take a few more depending on the case and need). Now you know what? In my years of dealing with scoliosis and yearly check ups, sometimes I've received as many as 8 xrays in one yearly visit!! No - Spinecor patients do not receive xrays every 3 months for the rest of their life.

[Pooka1]

So you are going to wear Spincor for two years and then stop?

[mariaf]

I agree that x-rays every 3 months, in a patient who is done growing, is a bit higher than "standard protocol".

My son was diagnosed in 2000 and is now 11. During all these years the most often that x-rays were ever recommended were every 4 months.

OK, that's only one less x-ray per year than every 3 months, but he was/is a growing child. I've never heard of anyone who was done growing needing 4 x-rays per year.

Even now, following VBS, he only gets 2 x-rays per year and that is only because he is still growing. If his orthopedic surgeon were to turn around and tell me to have him x-rayed 4 times a year after he is done growing, I would certainly question that.

With all the x-rays my son has received in the past 9 years, radiation exposure is a big concern to me. Of course, I'd want him to have all "necessary" x-rays, but not even one more than that.

To expose a child to more radiation than is necessary is wreckless IMHO. Of course, I'm not qualified (as none of us here are) to determine what number of x-rays is necessary, but I believe standard protocol among doctors is NOT 4 times per year in a patient with no growth remaining.

[Ballet Mom]

I think anyone who is being seen by a chiropractor for their scoliosis "treatment" should have an out-of-brace x-ray preferably taken, but at least evaluated, by a local orthopedic surgeon who specializes in scoliosis.

There seems to me to be a lot of questionable measurements going on in the chiro business with "reduced" Cobb angles being quoted, but in my opinion, no actual change in the look of the spine.

If people want a true measurement, and they may not, it behooves them to have the Cobb angle measurements verified by an experienced orthopedist.

And at that appointment with the orthopedist, they could bring up having the x-rays every three months and see what the medical doctor thinks about that.

[Pooka1]

I think anyone who is being seen by a chiropractor for their scoliosis "treatment" should have an out-of-brace x-ray preferably taken, but at least evaluated, by a local orthopedic surgeon who specializes in scoliosis.

I agree. As I understand Mom_15, her daughter in not presently under the care of a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, only (unqualified) chiros. Not sure how she sleeps at night but everyone is different.


There seems to me to be a lot of questionable measurements going on in the chiro business with "reduced" Cobb angles being quoted, but in my opinion, no actual change in the look of the spine.

Questionable measurements by chiros AND by the two orthopedic surgeons in Montreal. I had heard that orthopedic surgeons dismiss Spinecor literature but it wasn't until CD posted his experience that I fully understood why nobody believes their numbers. All researchers have is their intellectual honesty and professional integrity. The two up in Montreal don't seem to have that any more within the pediatric orthopedic community. (ETA: Also I think some surgeons tried the brace and abandoned it based on their results. So I don't think questions about the published Spinecor data are the only reason the brace is largely not used by surgeons. Perhaps chiros don't understand how to evaluate the literature? They almost certainly don't have the relevant training and some don't have college degrees.)


If people want a true measurement, and they may not, it behooves them to have the Cobb angle measurements verified by an experienced orthopedist.

And at that appointment with the orthopedist, they could bring up having the x-rays every three months and see what the medical doctor thinks about that.

Excellent points.

What is on the table is she is starting from at best a 42* (if the brace held the curve or if the curve didn't move on its own). The open question is what, if anything, did the PT do during the growth spurt to hold or reduce that number. Until she stops the bracing and PT completely then this remains unknown. Continuing the chiro is not likely a confounder here in my opinion... doesn't matter if that continues in order to determine what the PT did if anything.

[Ballet Mom]

Questionable measurements by chiros AND by the two orthopedic surgeons in Montreal.


Yes, that's why I said to have the x-rays evaluated by a "local" orthopedist.

Oh, and if indeed the measurement by the chiropractor turns out to be invalid, please report that to your state medical board or state regulator of chiros, so if this is indeed going on, it can be drummed out of the chiro community and help other people in the process.

[Pooka1]

Yes, that's why I said to have the x-rays evaluated by a "local" orthopedist.

Oh, and if indeed the measurement by the chiropractor turns out to be invalid, please report that to your state medical board or state regulator of chiros, so if this is indeed going on, it can be drummed out of the chiro community and help other people in the process.

Well I was going to say maybe they should try to get the chiro charged with practicing medicine without a license with potentially serious consequences.

[Pooka1]

As near as I can tell, the orthopedic surgeon measured the 42* and the chiro measured the 24*. It would be interesting and instructive to ask the surgeon to measure the last 72-hour out of brace radiograph from 3 months ago but especially the 1-week out of brace radiograph to be done this month.

It would also be interesting to have the chiro measure the 42* curve without telling him ahead of time what the measurement is. I'd pay to see that.

[Kid_15]

Im really confused we will all see how everthing goes in 2 weeks

[mamamax]

I don't think I'm going to worry about this xray thing. A typical spine xray exposes a person to approx 1.5 mSv, the average person in the US receives an effective dose of about 3 mSv per year from naturally occurring radioactive materials and cosmic radiation from outer space.

I like this conversation though - opportunity to share some facts (vs fears): http://www.radiologyinfo.org/en/safety/index.cfm?pg=sfty_xray

To explain it in simple terms, we can compare the radiation exposure from one chest x-ray as equivalent to the amount of radiation exposure one experiences from our natural surroundings in 10 days.

[Kid_15]

thanks for the facts about raidation as of everyone else i dont know what to say my first question is what is a radiograph if it is a x-ray then yes every three months perscribed by the chiropractor and spincor docters there certified

[mamamax]

Im really confused we will all see how everthing goes in 2 weeks

Hi Kid15 - Don't worry ... we discuss all kinds of things here - sorry you and your mom's thread got a little hijacked. Ask your doctors about any questions you have - they will be your best source for good answers. And congratulations to you once again, I am so happy for you!

[mamamax]

thanks for the facts about raidation as of everyone else i dont know what to say my first question is what is a radiograph if it is a x-ray then yes every three months perscribed by the chiropractor and spincor docters there certified

You're welcome - and yes a radiograph is an xray. I'm seeing my dr/chiropractor/spinecor certified provider next week - and I also usually get an xray every three months - its been a happy time for me so far! Best to you and your mom.

[Pooka1]

- sorry you and your mom's thread got a little hijacked.

Do you really think the radiograph frequency is tangential to this thread?

[Pooka1]

You're welcome - and yes a radiograph is an xray. I'm seeing my dr/chiropractor/spinecor certified provider next week - and I also usually get an xray every three months - its been a happy time for me so far! Best to you and your mom.

Are you only going to wear the Spinecor brace for two years?

If you decide to wear it indefinitely will you continue to get quarterly radiographs the rest of your life?

I hope this isn't considered a "hijack." :eek:

[Pooka1]

Ask your doctors about any questions you have - they will be your best source for good answers.

I believe her mother said they were not presently working with a surgeon.

They are working with chiros only.

[mamamax]

Are you only going to wear the Spinecor brace for two years?

If you decide to wear it indefinitely will you continue to get quarterly radiographs the rest of your life?

I hope this isn't considered a "hijack." :eek:

I wondered if you were asking me that question earlier. Actually Adult protocol is yes, two years. Asking me what I am going to do at the end of that time is something I cannot answer at this time. I'll know when I get there. I do not intend to get quarterly xrays for the rest of my life nor would this be recommended. So - I'll let you know seventeen months from now :-)

[mamamax]

I believe her mother said they were not presently working with a surgeon.

They are working with chiros only.

Yes, Mom15 is working with a Spinecor certified chiropractic doctor - and any questions regarding Spinecor treatment would be best answered by him/her. For that matter, if they wanted to consult surgeons, they could write Colliard and Rivard as well (the surgeons who invented the brace - one of them, is an SRS member).

[mamamax]

Do you really think the radiograph frequency is tangential to this thread?

I'm thinking ... pass the foil hat??

[Mom_15]

:eek:

Couple of things ...
1. Our certified Spinecor specialists and chiropractor and ortho said x-rays 3 - 6 months ... we chose every 3 months because when we were only seeing the ortho we only did x-rays every 6 months and the curve increased. And we want to keep a closer eye on it.
2. Also riser sign is only a 4. She is not done growing. Ortho, Spinecor and Chiro all agree she probably has another 2 inches of growth. ...
3. We go back to the Spinecor specialist and chiro this month. We will see the ortho again in 3 months.

Thank you mamamax for your comments. And good luck with your treatment!

[mamamax]

:eek:

Couple of things ...
1. Our certified Spinecor specialists and chiropractor and ortho said x-rays 3 - 6 months ... we chose every 3 months because when we were only seeing the ortho we only did x-rays every 6 months and the curve increased. And we want to keep a closer eye on it.
2. Also riser sign is only a 4. She is not done growing. Ortho, Spinecor and Chiro all agree she probably has another 2 inches of growth. ...
3. We go back to the Spinecor specialist and chiro this month. We will see the ortho again in 3 months.

Thank you mamamax for your comments. And good luck with your treatment!

You're welcome Mom15 & all the very best to you and your daughter as well! :)

[avishenderson]

Hi I am a mother of a 20 yr old girl. She was diagnosed with Scoliosis at 17 1/2 yrs. She seen a Orthapedic Surgeon in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He told her that since her curvature was only 20 degrees and that she was done growing, there wasn't anything he could do for her. She had very severe pain. Her pain was a 10 and she would get a numbing feeling from her waist down to her feet during her menstral period and slept quite often. A freind of mine seen the article in the MaClean's Magazine for the Spine Core Brace and she contacted me. I let Alacia read the article and she wanted to go to Montreal to see the Chiroprator, Dr. Loiuse Marcotte who specialises with this brace. This friend and others in the community raised funds to send us and pay for the brace. She had it on for only 2 months and her pain went down from a 10 - 2 and she no longer gets a numbing feeling. This Dr. Loiuse also found out that Alacia's left leg was quite shorter than her right leg. So she gave her an insert for her shoes. Dr. Loiuse had to cut off an inch of elastic on all 4 elastics to tighten it up for Alacia. Her curve is from a 20 degree down to a 12 as soon as Dr. Louise put it on. She will be measuring Alacia again when she goes back in March 2010.

There is only one problem though, Alacia has sensitive skin and she is getting raw and her skin is getting that black from the shorts. She says it is worse while on her period. Dr. Loiuse knows that this happens, but so far can't seem to find a solution.

But all and all Alacia and her family and friends are just so happy with the results so far. She can't thank people enough for all their help.
Avis Henderson

[Pooka1]

I think there is good evidence, despite the anecdotal nature, that Spinecor helps adults (and maybe kids) with pain issues.

The open question is does it halt curve progression in adolescents.

PT also has some evidence of temporarily reducing curves in adults and kids.

But the open question is will it permanently reduce curves (or halt progression) in growing kids.

[txmarinemom]

Her curve is from a 20 degree down to a 12 as soon as Dr. Louise put it on. She will be measuring Alacia again when she goes back in March 2010.

It's wonderful the combination of a heel lift and a brace has helped your daughter's pain - and that she's seen a typical in-brace reduction of her curve.

Has "Dr. Louise" indicated the March 2010 measurement will show some permanent curve reduction (demonstrated by out-of-brace films) in the your daughter's skeletally mature spine?


There is only one problem though, Alacia has sensitive skin and she is getting raw and her skin is getting that black from the shorts. She says it is worse while on her period. Dr. Loiuse knows that this happens, but so far can't seem to find a solution.

Have you considered a dermatologist vs. a chiropractor?

[Pooka1]

Have you considered a dermatologist vs. a chiropractor?

Okay if I didn't already nominate a post of the month I would nominate this. :D

I sometimes think I'm in the minority on this group in classifying the chiros with the faith healers and crystal worshippers when it comes to scoliosis.

[jillw]

Kid 15, Good Luck! I hope you continue to get great news-is the plan still to go a week without bracing before this xray? That should be fun. Let us know how it goes.

[jillw]

Sharon, I think you might have misinterpreted txmarinemom's post (i.e. when she asked if avishenderson had considered a dermatologist vs. Chiro). I believe Pam was sincerely was suggesting that a dermatologist might be able to help more with the sensitive skin issue than a chiro or orthopedic surgeon (in this particular case, avishenderson said they are seeing an orthopedic surgeon in Manitoba, not a chiro).

Then again, I could be wrong about her intent (and/or your intent in the previous post). It's happened before and is sure to happen again!

[Kid_15]

to avishendrson i had a promblem like that to my shorts got to tight and i wore boxer brief underwear for girls thanks to all who have wished me good alll and to all of you in any situation my advice is to be positive thank you

[Pooka1]

Sharon, I think you might have misinterpreted txmarinemom's post (i.e. when she asked if avishenderson had considered a dermatologist vs. Chiro). I believe Pam was sincerely was suggesting that a dermatologist might be able to help more with the sensitive skin issue than a chiro or orthopedic surgeon (in this particular case, avishenderson said they are seeing an orthopedic surgeon in Manitoba, not a chiro).

Then again, I could be wrong about her intent (and/or your intent in the previous post). It's happened before and is sure to happen again!

Hey maybe you are right!

I took it as a comment on the willingness to use alternative medicine over mainstream medicine especially given that chiro has claimed to cure everything and anything, not just bone-related issues.

[txmarinemom]

Hi I am a mother of a 20 yr old girl. She was diagnosed with Scoliosis at 17 1/2 yrs. She seen a Orthapedic Surgeon in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He told her that since her curvature was only 20 degrees and that she was done growing, there wasn't anything he could do for her. She had very severe pain. Her pain was a 10 and she would get a numbing feeling from her waist down to her feet during her menstral period and slept quite often. A freind of mine seen the article in the MaClean's Magazine for the Spine Core Brace and she contacted me. I let Alacia read the article and she wanted to go to Montreal to see the Chiroprator, Dr. Loiuse Marcotte who specialises with this brace. This friend and others in the community raised funds to send us and pay for the brace. She had it on for only 2 months and her pain went down from a 10 - 2 and she no longer gets a numbing feeling. This Dr. Loiuse also found out that Alacia's left leg was quite shorter than her right leg. So she gave her an insert for her shoes. Dr. Loiuse had to cut off an inch of elastic on all 4 elastics to tighten it up for Alacia. Her curve is from a 20 degree down to a 12 as soon as Dr. Louise put it on. She will be measuring Alacia again when she goes back in March 2010.

There is only one problem though, Alacia has sensitive skin and she is getting raw and her skin is getting that black from the shorts. She says it is worse while on her period. Dr. Loiuse knows that this happens, but so far can't seem to find a solution.


Re-read the post and let me know if I misunderstood, Jill: It doesn't sound like Alacia is *currently* seeing a MD.

And regardless of what I personally think of chiropractors, skin disorders are definitely outside their scope. "Dr. Louise" has good reason to be stumped.

Regards,
Pam

[mamamax]

Hi I am a mother of a 20 yr old girl. She was diagnosed with Scoliosis at 17 1/2 yrs. She seen a Orthapedic Surgeon in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. He told her that since her curvature was only 20 degrees and that she was done growing, there wasn't anything he could do for her. She had very severe pain. Her pain was a 10 and she would get a numbing feeling from her waist down to her feet during her menstral period and slept quite often. A freind of mine seen the article in the MaClean's Magazine for the Spine Core Brace and she contacted me. I let Alacia read the article and she wanted to go to Montreal to see the Chiroprator, Dr. Loiuse Marcotte who specialises with this brace. This friend and others in the community raised funds to send us and pay for the brace. She had it on for only 2 months and her pain went down from a 10 - 2 and she no longer gets a numbing feeling. This Dr. Loiuse also found out that Alacia's left leg was quite shorter than her right leg. So she gave her an insert for her shoes. Dr. Loiuse had to cut off an inch of elastic on all 4 elastics to tighten it up for Alacia. Her curve is from a 20 degree down to a 12 as soon as Dr. Louise put it on. She will be measuring Alacia again when she goes back in March 2010.

There is only one problem though, Alacia has sensitive skin and she is getting raw and her skin is getting that black from the shorts. She says it is worse while on her period. Dr. Loiuse knows that this happens, but so far can't seem to find a solution.

But all and all Alacia and her family and friends are just so happy with the results so far. She can't thank people enough for all their help.
Avis Henderson

Hi Avis - Congrats to you and your daughter - Great News! A very heartwarming story also of how the community rallied around Alacia in her time of need. Dr. Louise Marcotte is well known for her expertise. That McLean's article is posted on the Spinecor manufacturer's web site under "news", I remember reading that also. I have corresponded a bit with Sharon Dunn who wrote it, her son completed his Spinecor bracing as a young adult. I asked her how he was fairing as far as pain these days - she said he is fine and that occasionally his back will bother him with heavy exertion (like anyone in the general population), during such a time he will put the brace on for a day and be fine. Here's a web link to the entire article, and in it Joe O'Brien (President & CEO of the National Scoliosis Foundation) also speaks of his Spinecor experience with one of his children: http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080123_55198_55198&page=1 Joe also shares a little bit about his Spinecor experience here: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8765&highlight=setting+record+straight

Regarding the chafing problem, is Alacia using the adolescent model or the Adult model that was introduced in April of this year? Is the color of her brace black? Either way I think Kid15 came up with a good solution - I used a boy cut bathing suit bottom my first month (with the adolescent model) but don't need it now - today I'm using the Spinecor bodysuit, long leg design.

All the best to you and Alicia and best wishes for her continued success!

[Pooka1]

Re-read the post and let me know if I misunderstood, Jill: It doesn't sound like Alacia is *currently* seeing a MD.

And regardless of what I personally think of chiropractors, skin disorders are definitely outside their scope. "Dr. Louise" has good reason to be stumped.

Regards,
Pam

Maybe "Dr." Louise should read this treatise...

http://www.jbpub.com/catalog/9780763761578/ :)

[Pooka1]

By the way, as chiros are NOT allowed to use the "Dr." title in the U.K., and Canada is part of the U.K., then I wonder if chiros are allowed to call themselves "Doctor" in Canada.

[mamamax]

A chiropractic doctor is given the title based upon education in the US - I don't know about other countries. Everyone understands this is not the same title as MD. Many Spinecor patients (like myself) include their orthopedic specialists in their Spinecor treatment. Personally, I think that is a great thing to do!

Some chiropractic doctors in the US (like mine) are not only Spinecor certified but have trained with Rivard and Colliard (the surgeons who invented this brace, one of whom is an SRS member) and maintain a professional relationship with them. The doctors I see have also conducted studies and have published work in the Scoliosis Journal which duplicate the results of Rivard and Colliard. There is an orthopist from the US who has also duplicated these results and is published in the Scoliosis Journal but his name escapes me at the moment.

Becoming Spinecor certified is not a quick study, or an out of the box kind of treatment - those who are certified to apply this technique (unsupervised) are listed on the manufacturer's web site.

I don't think is is right to disrespect the chiropractic profession - or the Spinecor doctors who are having success with this bracing method - or the patients who see them.

Just my opinion ;-)

[Pooka1]

I don't think is is right to disrespect the chiropractic profession - or the Spinecor doctors who are having success with this bracing method - or the patients who see them.

Just my opinion ;-)

I don't think it's right for these CLEAR chiros to lie through their teeth or ignorantly spread bullcrap about surgery trigger angles.

On this video, they claim surgery is immediately recommended for any curve over 40*...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srtbzJmED8I

3:52 - Our buddy Stitzel is either lying or ignorant. Either way he is MISLEADING innocent people.

[mamamax]

Well - this is a Spinecor thread - ok a little bit hijacked - but an originally intended Spinecor thread. If you want to open a separate thread about other things - I'll join you :-)

[Pooka1]

Well - this is a Spinecor thread - ok a little bit hijacked - but an originally intended Spinecor thread. If you want to open a separate thread about other things - I'll join you :-)

I do not thanks.

These CLEAR chiros are reprehensible.

[mamamax]

to avishendrson i had a promblem like that to my shorts got to tight and i wore boxer brief underwear for girls thanks to all who have wished me good alll and to all of you in any situation my advice is to be positive thank you

Good post Kid15! I used boy cut bathing suit bottoms for the first month I was bracing - and I use the adolescent model with pelvic base & thigh bands. I think Alacia may be using the adult model which has a long tight short kind of thing on the bottom half - and maybe her brace color is also black. Not sure, waiting for her mum to answer. I'm using the long cut Spinecor bodysuit these days and love its comfort - have you tried them?

[mariaf]

I don't think is is right to disrespect the chiropractic profession - or the Spinecor doctors who are having success with this bracing method


I ask this sincerely, not sarcastically.....outside of studies published by the inventors of the brace, where is the proof that Spinecor, or any brace for that matter, has been successful in permanently correcting curves?

It is my understanding (and I believe it is also the belief of most of the top doctors in the field) that no brace has ever been proven to do that.

If there has been proof of this, and it is published somewhere, I would truly be interested in seeing it.

Thanks.

[mamamax]

I ask this sincerely, not sarcastically.....outside of studies published by the inventors of the brace, where is the proof that Spinecor, or any brace for that matter, has been successful in permanently correcting curves?

It is my understanding (and I believe it is also the belief of most of the top doctors in the field) that no brace has ever been proven to do that.

If there has been proof of this, and it is published somewhere, I would truly be interested in seeing it.

Thanks.

Hi Maria -

Unfortunately, nothing can guarantee a permanent (forever lasting) correction - not even surgery, as was explained to me by the SRS surgeon I saw last year.

There have been some Spinecor follow-ups and they are found at the Scoliosis Journal web site. Interestingly enough some Milwaukee follow-ups are also promising.

As far as bracing in general - I'm hoping the BrAIST study will provide us with more information than we have now. The study director, Lori Dolan has posted some comments regarding that which you may find interesting:

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9641

[Ballet Mom]

A chiropractic doctor is given the title based upon education in the US - I don't know about other countries. Everyone understands this is not the same title as MD.

I don't agree with that assertion at all, mamamax. I would be highly surprised if most people understood the difference between an MD and a chiropractor at all, let alone the fact that I've never seen any group throw the doctor title around as much as these chiros, even medical doctors tend not to use that term when speaking of themselves. The chiros make sure the Dr. or "Doc" title is in everything they write. And I'm sure in person also. It is apparently their method of trying to convince people of their validity/credibility.

I suspect a significant portion of the chiros' clientele have never been to college and wouldn't realize the difference in various degrees and what they mean regarding training. In fact, I have a master's degree and it was well after college that I figured out what these "Doctor" degrees are from these training schools that are not associated with regular universities.


I don't think is is right to disrespect the chiropractic profession - or the Spinecor doctors who are having success with this bracing method - or the patients who see them.


I don't think it's "disrespect" to point out what's going on in apparently a lot of the chiropractic industry. When I visit these chiropractor sites all I can think of is used car salesmen. And when I read what they write, it is full of inaccuracies and misleading statements about what they can accomplish.

I think if some people can get help with their pain though chiropractic adjustments, good for them. However, I think the treatment of actual conditions such as scoliosis really ought to be left to medical doctors. I'm surprised these medical boards haven't stepped on these scoliosis chiros hard for their claims regarding scoliosis. Obviously, they must be a powerful lobby here in the U.S.

[mariaf]

[COLOR="Navy"]There have been some Spinecor follow-ups and they are found at the Scoliosis Journal web site.

Thanks.

I did find these - but the vast majority of these follow-ups were published by the inventors of the brace (Drs. Rivard and/or Colliard).

That's not to say they can't be valid - but I think everyone is looking for some published studies that were done by someone other than the inventors of Spinecor.

[mamamax]

Thanks.

I did find these - but the vast majority of these follow-ups were published by the inventors of the brace (Drs. Rivard and/or Colliard).

That's not to say they can't be valid - but I think everyone is looking for some published studies that were done by someone other than the inventors of Spinecor.

Your welcome maria - if you search a bit more, you'll see from Deutchman and Lamantai as well ... and an American Orthopist as well (I believe). Wong did two studies I believe - and if you look close (at those on the manufacturer's web site who are certified to treat unsupervised) we do not find Wong's name there. The key I believe in why some cannot duplicate the studies done by those who are certified to treat - unsupervised.

[mamamax]

I don't agree with that assertion at all, mamamax. I would be highly surprised if most people understood the difference between an MD and a chiropractor at all, let alone the fact that I've never seen any group throw the doctor title around as much as these chiros, even medical doctors tend not to use that term when speaking of themselves. The chiros make sure the Dr. or "Doc" title is in everything they write. And I'm sure in person also. It is apparently their method of trying to convince people of their validity/credibility.

I suspect a significant portion of the chiros' clientele have never been to college and wouldn't realize the difference in various degrees and what they mean regarding training. In fact, I have a master's degree and it was well after college that I figured out what these "Doctor" degrees are from these training schools that are not associated with regular universities.



I don't think it's "disrespect" to point out what's going on in apparently a lot of the chiropractic industry. When I visit these chiropractor sites all I can think of is used car salesmen. And when I read what they write, it is full of inaccuracies and misleading statements about what they can accomplish.

I think if some people can get help with their pain though chiropractic adjustments, good for them. However, I think the treatment of actual conditions such as scoliosis really ought to be left to medical doctors. I'm surprised these medical boards haven't stepped on these scoliosis chiros hard for their claims regarding scoliosis. Obviously, they must be a powerful lobby here in the U.S.

We disagree on the intelligence level of most people. I knew the difference between various doctor titles before I got out of High School -over 40 years ago :eek:

In the last 40 years of dealing with my condition, and discussing it with others, I’ve never come across someone who thought a chiropractor had the same level of title as an MD. You were not aware of this until after achieving a Master’s Degree? That’s a bit surprising. I still think most people are a little more savvy than you may be giving them credit for.

There is a LOT of misrepresented information on the Internet, and the professions where we find this is wide ranging and unlimited. Why would anyone decide to negatively classify an entire profession based on the actions of a few? Not good reasoning skills in my estimation, based upon an analytical thinking class I took in college.

The chiropractic profession is also not dismissed among the more traditional medical fields – as evidenced every day by medical doctors who often refer their patients to chiropractors for treatment. The professions often work together. I include my medical doctor/orthopedic specialist in on my Spinecor treatment (as do many other Spinecor patients) and in this way help expand the knowledge base for benefit of all.

The chiropractic profession finds a degree of respect many places – the well respected surgeon, Hans Weiss, MD, is in fact also a chiropractor (German school).

I applaud those chiropractic doctors like mine, who have made scoliosis treatment their specialty and field of focus – who have trained with Rivard and Colliard (surgeon inventors of the Spinecor brace, one of whom is an SRS member) and maintain a professional relationship with them; who have become Spinecor certified to a level where they can provide this bracing technique unsupervised; who conduct (and publish in the Scoliosis Journal) ongoing studies which duplicate the results of Rivard & Colliard; who have travelled several times to Germany to receive certification in Schroth; and who offer their education, knowledge, and expertise to many patients like myself throughout the United States every day. And, faulty reasoning skills (damning all based on the actions of a few) cannot negate the documented successes they (and other Spinecor certified chiropractors) achieve.

Just my humble opinion ;-)

[Pooka1]

Your welcome maria - if you search a bit more, you'll see from Deutchman and Lamantai as well ... and an American Orthopist as well (I believe). Wong did two studies I believe - and if you look close (at those on the manufacturer's web site who are certified to treat unsupervised) we do not find Wong's name there. The key I believe in why some cannot duplicate the studies done by those who are certified to treat - unsupervised.



No Wong responded to the criticism. Spinecor did not respond honestly in my opinion.

[Pooka1]

I applaud those chiropractic doctors like mine, who have made scoliosis treatment their specialty and field of focus – who have trained with Rivard and Colliard

If surgeons in the US used the brace rather than abandon it or never try it based on the literature, do you think anyone would be going to chiros for the brace?

[Kid_15]

based on my expierence they would go straight to surgery which is not a option i like

[Pooka1]

based on my experience they would go straight to surgery which is not a option i like

If you could get Spinecor from either surgeon or a chiropractor, which would you choose and why?

[mamamax]

No Wong responded to the criticism. Spinecor did not respond honestly in my opinion.

Are you kidding - Sharon, are you talking about the Spinecor rebuttal published on their website? I presume you actually read it? Please let me you did.

[Pooka1]

Are you kidding - Sharon, are you talking about the Spinecor rebuttal published on their website? I presume you actually read it? Please let me you did.

I read it and I read Wong's reply to it. Wong was believable. Spinecor was not for the most part.

And your reputable surgeon/chiro Weiss also did Spinecor study that couldn't replicate the Montreal team's results as you know.

Why do you think the surgeons in the US abandoned or never started to use Spinecor? Are they all just nutty?

[mamamax]

If surgeons in the US used the brace rather than abandon it or never try it based on the literature, do you think anyone would be going to chiros for the brace?

Think Kid15 responded better than I could have! Touche' Kid15 :D

[mamamax]

I read it and I read Wong's reply to it. Wong was believable. Spinecor was not for the most part.

And your reputable surgeon/chiro Weiss also did Spinecor study that couldn't replicate the Montreal team's results as you know.

Why do you think the surgeons in the US abandoned or never started to use Spinecor? Are they all just nutty?

Weiss (whom I do have a GREAT deal of respect for - is also not certified to treat or apply the Spinecor technique unsupervised.

I think the surgeons in the US could not be bothered - Go Canada!!

[Pooka1]

I think the surgeons in the US could not be bothered - Go Canada!!


Surgeons in the US couldn't be bothered to use something that will help their patients?

Are they all just evil?

I can show you at least one surgeon who cares and I bet you would be hard-pressed to even find one that didn't care about their patients. Surgeons are the good guys in this game.

[mamamax]

Oh so you don't think any other brace besides Spinecor has a chance in hell of working then? Everyone else in n on-Spinecor braces is headed for surgery for sure? I'm sure that will come as some news to some here.

That's the logical implication of her comment which I refrained from pointing out before your comment.

No, that absolutely is not true - I think other braces also achieve some success - I wish Spinecor had been included in the BrAIST study, or will be included as that study stands to be one of the most important bracing studies in history. Joe O'Brien's family alone shows the benefits of different types of braces.

Spinecor of course, as most of us know, is not the standard TSLO type brace - it behaves differently in many ways. For many it is a brace of choice and CHOICE is what treatment is all about right?

[mamamax]

She said she would be headed for surgery absent Spinecor.

Do you believe there is evidence anyone:

a. avoided surgery with Spinecor,

and

b. avoided surgery ONLY through Spinecor and no other brace could have kept them out of surgery?

Kid15 was displaying something we all do here - a spirited reply to a spirited post ... let it go & admire her ability -

[Pooka1]

Kid15 was displaying something we all do here - a spirited reply to a spirited post ... let it go & admire her ability -

Okay I'll delete my posts.

[mamamax]

Surgeons in the US couldn't be bothered to use something that will help their patients?

Are they all just evil?

I can show you at least one surgeon who cares and I bet you would be hard-pressed to even find one that didn't care about their patients. Surgeons are the good guys in this game.

No Sharon surgeons are not evil in my estimation - one once saved my life :-) I do believe most are too busy to drop everything and take the time required to achieve the level of training needed to become Spinecor certified and to apply the technique unsupervised. It's probably just that simple.

[Pooka1]

No Sharon surgeons are not evil in my estimation - one once saved my life :-) I do believe most are too busy to drop everything and take the time required to achieve the level of training needed to become Spinecor certified and to apply the technique unsupervised. It's probably just that simple.


That is in fact calling them evil that they refuse necessary training to keep their patients off the operating table. I don't see how you can get around that.

They take all kinds of time to learn other things that will help their patients. There is some reason they are NOT taking the time to learn Spinecor. And by the way, how long do you think it takes to master Spinecor given that the inventors are still collecting preliminary data? I bet it is LESS time than anything else they train on.

So that is NOT the answer. Do you want to try again?

[Ballet Mom]

We disagree on the intelligence level of most people. I knew the difference between various doctor titles before I got out of High School -over 40 years ago :eek:

In the last 40 years of dealing with my condition, and discussing it with others, I’ve never come across someone who thought a chiropractor had the same level of title as an MD. You were not aware of this until after achieving a Master’s Degree? That’s a bit surprising. I still think most people are a little more savvy than you may be giving them credit for.

There is a LOT of misrepresented information on the Internet, and the professions where we find this is wide ranging and unlimited. Why would anyone decide to negatively classify an entire profession based on the actions of a few? Not good reasoning skills in my estimation, based upon an analytical thinking class I took in college.

And it does not appear to me that it is just a few chiropractors trying to engage in the practice of medicine by "treating" scoliosis.

The chiropractic profession is also not dismissed among the more traditional medical fields – as evidenced every day by medical doctors who often refer their patients to chiropractors for treatment. The professions often work together. I include my medical doctor/orthopedic specialist in on my Spinecor treatment (as do many other Spinecor patients) and in this way help expand the knowledge base for benefit of all.

The chiropractic profession finds a degree of respect many places – the well respected surgeon, Hans Weiss, MD, is in fact also a chiropractor (German school).

I applaud those chiropractic doctors like mine, who have made scoliosis treatment their specialty and field of focus – who have trained with Rivard and Colliard (surgeon inventors of the Spinecor brace, one of whom is an SRS member) and maintain a professional relationship with them; who have become Spinecor certified to a level where they can provide this bracing technique unsupervised; who conduct (and publish in the Scoliosis Journal) ongoing studies which duplicate the results of Rivard & Colliard; who have travelled several times to Germany to receive certification in Schroth; and who offer their education, knowledge, and expertise to many patients like myself throughout the United States every day. And, faulty reasoning skills (damning all based on the actions of a few) cannot negate the documented successes they (and other Spinecor certified chiropractors) achieve.

Just my humble opinion ;-)




My what a response. Immediately to the intelligence level are we? I don't think that knowledge that chiropractors call themselves doctors has anything to do with intelligence. Perhaps because you have dealt with scoliosis for all those years you have more exposure to all the different people who deal in various manners with spines. No one in my extended family has ever gone to a chiropractor, nor would they. And I don't think you should be assuming that most of the general population out there knows the difference just because you've had prior experience with chiros.

I certainly do believe if someone came in off the street to a Spine Care clinic and there was a person in a white coat calling himself Dr. SoandSo, and all his plaques and business cards had Dr. as the title, and he was telling me how he could treat their scoliosis with all these x-ray machines around the office, etc., I would certainly think they could very well believe he was a medical doctor. And I suspect it happens a lot. I doubt very much that the chiro is going to inform them that he is not.

I should think this could all easily be solved by having an independent review by an impartial orthopedic surgeon of the before and after x-rays (all out of brace for a specified number of hours) of these chiropractors' patients results and see if the results stand up for themselves. If they do, great, if not...the chiros should get out of the practice of medicine and focus on pain relief, which I believe is what they're supposed to be doing anyway.

[LindaRacine]

No Sharon surgeons are not evil in my estimation - one once saved my life :-) I do believe most are too busy to drop everything and take the time required to achieve the level of training needed to become Spinecor certified and to apply the technique unsupervised. It's probably just that simple.


The surgeons that I've dealt with would not be fitting Spinecor braces for their patients because they have orthotists who would do that for them. So, I don't see the time thing as a valid argument.

--Linda

[Pooka1]

The surgeons that I've dealt with would not be fitting Spinecor braces for their patients because they have orthotists who would do that for them. So, I don't see the time thing as a valid argument.

--Linda

Okay this response is better than mine. :)

I associate myself with this remark and will await mamamax's answer to Linda's response.

[mamamax]

The surgeons that I've dealt with would not be fitting Spinecor braces for their patients because they have orthotists who would do that for them. So, I don't see the time thing as a valid argument.

--Linda

Linda is absolutely correct - in the US it would be standard practice for a surgeon to refer a patient to an orthotist for bracing treatment. There are orthotists in the US that are Spinecor certified and they are listed on the manufacturer's web site. This is not to say however, that US surgeons could not apply the technique (as the Canadian surgeons do). I'm seeing my orthopedic specialist next week - think I will ask his opinion on why US surgeons do not consider this - outside the obvious US protocol that has been in place in the past.

[mamamax]

I would like to share some important information regarding why some cannot duplicate the same results as Rivard and Colliard (and others) regarding Spinecor. The following are the introductory comments published by Spinecor regarding the Wong study. Mind you - such professionals do not publish false statement because of a little thing called - law suits. And I have noticed no one is suing the Spinecor manufacturer ;-) Full text (providing in-depth details) is available at the manufacturer's web site.

It has come to our attention that an article entitled “The effect of rigid versus flexible spinal orthosis on the clinical efficacy and acceptance of the patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis” was published in the May 2008 issue of Spine Journal.[1] The SpineCorporation is the company responsible for production, supply, and training in the use of the SpineCor treatment system and we have serious concerns about the methods and validity of this study. We would like to point out two serious issues in the way in which this study was conducted and we believe these factors invalidate the data of the SpineCor treatment group and therefore the comparative results of the study.

1) The authors in this study and the facility at which patients were treated with SpineCor are not qualified to a proficient standard in the SpineCor treatment system. They should not be providing this treatment therapeutically to patients, let alone conducting research into its efficacy. We believe this to be seriously unethical and detrimental to the patients involved.

2) This treatment centre has not been supplied with enough initial SpineCor components to effectively brace 22 patients. They also have not received enough replacement components necessary to effectively maintain this amount of SpineCor braces. In reference to point 1, the SpineCor brace is a unique treatment system for idiopathic scoliosis that is unlike any other type of spinal orthosis ever developed[2]. It does not share the same treatment principles of 3-point pressure that rigid orthoses use and its use requires specific and extensive training. Training and an expertise in rigid bracing does not transfer to SpineCor; specific training and qualification is necessary. To attain the necessary skills to be a safe and effective SpineCor provider, candidates are required to attend an initial Phase 1 theory course. On completion of Phase 1, providers are eligible to complete a Phase 2 practical training which involves treating patients in front of a qualified SpineCor trainer. Distributors of the SpineCor brace are under a contractual obligation only to supply SpineCor braces and components to Phase 2 certified providers. To remain certified, practitioners must see a minimum number of patients using this system each year or recertification is necessary[3]. These strict systems are in place to ensure quality of treatment and consistency of results.

None of the authors of this paper are certified in SpineCor treatment nor have they ever received significant training in the SpineCor system. Some of the technicians working with these authors at the scoliosis clinic in Hong Kong have received basic introductory training, but they are not certified SpineCor providers and are not considered to have received training to a sufficient standard to use the SpineCor system without supervision.

[Pooka1]

http://early-onset-scoliosis.com/Documents/Rebuttal%20by%20Dr.%20Rivard%20to%20Wong%20Study.p df

This is an abbreviated version of Wong's response. He responded at greater length somewhere else but I haven't found it yet. The extended response was posted on SSO I think.

Anyway, three of the Hong Kong study team were in fact certified to use Spinecor in direct contradiction to what Rivard said.

I think Weiss has also said he or his people were also qualified/certified but I don't recall that clearly.

And the Montreal guys are still winging this as I type. The are making this up as they go along and changing things when like good researchers. There is no "standard protocol" known to work; There is only the experimental protocol that they are standardizing on to see where it goes. This is a critical difference that I think people gloss over.

I suspect every brace inventor (and their company) will always claim that an independent researcher is somehow not doing it right if the results are not positive. At some point, it just becomes ridiculous.

[Pooka1]

I'm seeing my orthopedic specialist next week - think I will ask his opinion on why US surgeons do not consider this

You're asking a chiro that? Can you also ask a surgeon who has decided against using Spinecor that also please?

I am writing down the answer and mailing it to myself...

[mamamax]

http://early-onset-scoliosis.com/Documents/Rebuttal%20by%20Dr.%20Rivard%20to%20Wong%20Study.p df

This is an abbreviated version of Wong's response. He responded at greater length somewhere else but I haven't found it yet. The extended response was posted on SSO I think.

Anyway, three of the Hong Kong study team were in fact certified to use Spinecor in direct contradiction to what Rivard said.

I think Weiss has also said he or his people were also qualified/certified but I don't recall that clearly.

And the Montreal guys are still winging this as I type. The are making this up as they go along and changing things when like good researchers. There is no "standard protocol" known to work; There is only the experimental protocol that they are standardizing on to see where it goes. This is a critical difference that I think people gloss over.

I suspect every brace inventor (and their company) will always claim that an independent researcher is somehow not doing it right if the results are not positive. At some point, it just becomes ridiculous.

Check the dates - I believe the Wong's rebuttal comes first - Spinecor's comes second

[mamamax]

You're asking a chiro that? Can you also ask a surgeon who has decided against using Spinecor that also please?

I am writing down the answer and mailing it to myself...

No Sharon - I wrote: orthopedic specialist ... you know - the one I include in my treatment plan - the MD/surgeon who includes my chiropractor in my treatment. Boy - how many times to I have to say that?

[Pooka1]

Check the dates - I believe the Wong's rebuttal comes first - Spinecor's comes second


On the site I posted, Rivard is responding to the Wong article and Wong is responding to Rivard's response. It is impossible to say otherwise.

Elsewhere, Wong goes on at greater length in his rebuttal of Rivard's comments on his article.

[Pooka1]

No Sharon - I wrote: orthopedic specialist ... you know - the one I include in my treatment plan - the MD/surgeon who includes my chiropractor in my treatment. Boy - how many times to I have to say that?

I thought you referred to the chiro as your "orthopedic specialist." I assumed if you were referring to your orthopedic surgeon you would have said surgeon.

To be clear why don't you just say "surgeon" or "chiro?"

[mamamax]

I thought you referred to the chiro as your "orthopedic specialist." I assumed if you were referring to your orthopedic surgeon you would have said surgeon.

To be clear why don't you just say "surgeon" or "chiro?"

You simply made a wrong assumption - I will (and have always for sake of clarity) refer to my chiropractor as chiropractor (or sometimes I may say Spinecor provider) - and orthopedic specialist as, orthopedic specialist.

[mamamax]

On the site I posted, Rivard is responding to the Wong article and Wong is responding to Rivard's response. It is impossible to say otherwise.

Elsewhere, Wong goes on at greater length in his rebuttal of Rivard's comments on his article.

And the Spinecor manufacturer's rebuttal follows all of this - and is posted on their website. Where they state:


None of the authors of this paper are certified in SpineCor treatment nor have they ever received significant training in the SpineCor system. Some of the technicians working with these authors at the scoliosis clinic in Hong Kong have received basic introductory training, but they are not certified SpineCor providers and are not considered to have received training to a sufficient standard to use the SpineCor system without supervision.

[Pooka1]

And the Spinecor manufacturer's rebuttal follows all of this - and is posted on their website. Where they state:


None of the authors of this paper are certified in SpineCor treatment nor have they ever received significant training in the SpineCor system. Some of the technicians working with these authors at the scoliosis clinic in Hong Kong have received basic introductory training, but they are not certified SpineCor providers and are not considered to have received training to a sufficient standard to use the SpineCor system without supervision.

If that were true and relevant, Rivard would have included it in his response. What Spinecor puts on their web site and NOT in a Letter to the editor where the people who read the original Wong article will see it is irrelevant and pouty.

If it turns out that these three people with the training certificates in Spinecor were told they were able to fit the brace without supervision, you realize this will be the nail in the coffin of Spinecor's credibility, yes? I will try to find Wong's extended response... I think he might address this exact point.

[mamamax]

If that were true and relevant, Rivard would have included it in his response. What Spinecor puts on their web site and NOT in a Letter to the editor where the people who read the original Wong article will see it is irrelevant and pouty.

If it turns out that these three people with the training certificates in Spinecor were told they were able to fit the brace without supervision, you realize this will be the nail in the coffin of Spinecor's credibility, yes? I will try to find Wong's extended response... I think he might address this exact point.

I will take the official word from the manufacturer (which comes after the exchanges between Rivard and Wong) over all else - why: they are responsible for the training. Do you really think that they would risk a law suit with false statements regarding who they have trained and to what level? I don't. The absence of ANY certified providers in Hong Kong is also rather telling.

[hdugger]

Would it be possible to move this discussion to some other topic, and give a teenager and her parent some space to celebrate a happy occasion?

[mamamax]

Would it be possible to move this discussion to some other topic, and give a teenager and her parent some space to celebrate a happy occasion?

Excellent suggestion - I hate it when threads get so hijacked - Sorry Mom & Kid15.

[mariaf]

[COLOR="Navy"]Do you really think that they would risk a law suit with false statements regarding who they have trained and to what level? I don't.

I have to disagree.

As I posted on another thread, I have been in the legal field for 30 years. The number of companies with lawsuits against them (whether for making false claims or other reasons) is astronomical. It is something that happens every day. Companies make claims about their product; a consumer feels the claims were misleading or untrue; and a lawsuit is born. Sometimes the consumer wins and is proven right - and sometimes the company wins if there isn't sufficient proof they knowingly lied. Again, I'm not necessarily saying anyone knowingly made false statements in this case (that is yet to be seen); but to say that manufacturers never make false or misleading statements is completely untrue, and to be honest it made me chuckle :)

[mamamax]

Would it be possible to move this discussion to some other topic, and give a teenager and her parent some space to celebrate a happy occasion?

I think we should follow this guideline in this thread ;)