Curvature Pattern

[mamamax]

Is there a way to accurately asses the thoracic/lumbar curvature pattern through observation alone (in terms of left/right or right/left presentation).

If so .. how so?

[LindaRacine]

Maxene...

Thoracic curves have an apex between T2 and the T11/T12 disc.
Thoracolumbar curves have an apex between T12 to L1.
Lumbar curves have an apex between the L1/L2 disc and L4.

To get the Lenke type (1-6), one needs to know which curves are structural and which are non-structural. And, to get to the final Lenke classification (1a thru 6c), one needs to determine possible lumbar modifier and sagittal structural criteria.

--Linda

I just reread your question, and realize that I answered a question you didn't ask.

Most xrays taken in orthopaedists office have right and left sides marked. The largest percentage of curves are right thoracic and left lumbar.

Does that answer your question?

--Linda

[mamamax]

Linda ~ thank you. You did answer more than i asked and i'm glad that you did. I have a thoracolumbar/lumbar combination. I was looking for references that would provide more physical/visual definition - rather than x-rays. Like the attachment which shows a right thoracolumbar curve and right rib hump.

My question is .. if this woman in the attached picture, also had a left lumbar curve. Would this shift the rib hump to her left and also switch the hip prominence and concavity to her right? Or would visual presentation remain the same?

[LindaRacine]

Yes, the rib hump is on the same side as the curve, so someone with a left thoracic and thoracolumbar curve would have a left sided rib hump.

[mamamax]

so .. if someone has a left rib hump - they will have a left thoracic - or a left thoracolumbar curve ... regardless of whether or not there is an accompanying right lumbar curve?

And in this case then - there will be a right hip prominence and right sided concavity?

[MichelleK]

Hi maxene, what a surprise to find out you have right thorasic left lumbar eh? That would normally present with right rib hump & right hip being higher than left since the lumbar spine curves to the left. make sense? you are lucky your spinecor feels better after tightening! I feel like i'm in a straight jacket again!!! I didn't realize how it had loosened. I'm editing my post cause i think you missed it! Yes, someone will have left rib hump, lumbar curves to my knowledge won't affect rib hump, just hips etc. Yes, right hip prominence & right concavity with left thoracolumbar curve. Be careful with the terms though, thoracolumbar means c shaped curve that encompasses thorasic & lumbar spine. Double curves are called double major & can be right or left thorasic with right or left lumbar curves. Did I totally confuse you?

[LindaRacine]

so .. if someone has a left rib hump - they will have a left thoracic - or a left thoracolumbar curve ... regardless of whether or not there is an accompanying right lumbar curve?

Yes

And in this case then - there will be a right hip prominence and right sided concavity?

Not sure I follow what you're asking. If one has a left thoracolumbar curve (relatively uncommon), they may have some amount of right sided hip prominence (depending on rotation and how much of their lumbar spine is involved).

As to right-sided concavity, are you asking about the lumbar part of the curve?

[mamamax]

Yes


Not sure I follow what you're asking. If one has a left thoracolumbar curve (relatively uncommon), they may have some amount of right sided hip prominence (depending on rotation and how much of their lumbar spine is involved).

As to right-sided concavity, are you asking about the lumbar part of the curve?

ok .. let me see if i can start over and describe this better. Or ask the question better.

I one has a right thoracolumbar curve and a left lumbar curve - where would the rib hump be and where would the concavity (waist to hip) be?

[MichelleK]

what Linda has said here is true also. There may or may not be hip prominence depending on the size & rotation of lumbar curve. Same with rib hump. I've been lucky enough to avoid a rib hump although i have double major right thorasic left lumbar curves.

[MichelleK]

are you sure you have thoracolumbar curve???

[LindaRacine]

Here's a Lenke chart showing the possible configuations:

http://www.spinal-deformity-surgeon.com/classification.html
(click on the Lenke Classification Schematic link)

[LindaRacine]

ok .. let me see if i can start over and describe this better. Or ask the question better.

I one has a right thoracolumbar curve and a left lumbar curve - where would the rib hump be and where would the concavity (waist to hip) be?

That person would have a right rib hump and a right lumbar concavity.

[mamamax]

Hi maxene, what a surprise to find out you have right thorasic left lumbar eh? That would normally present with right rib hump & right hip being higher than left since the lumbar spine curves to the left. make sense? you are lucky your spinecor feels better after tightening! I feel like i'm in a straight jacket again!!! I didn't realize how it had loosened. I'm editing my post cause i think you missed it! Yes, someone will have left rib hump, lumbar curves to my knowledge won't affect rib hump, just hips etc. Yes, right hip prominence & right concavity with left thoracolumbar curve. Be careful with the terms though, thoracolumbar means c shaped curve that encompasses thorasic & lumbar spine. Double curves are called double major & can be right or left thorasic with right or left lumbar curves. Did I totally confuse you?

Hi Michelle! Listen, yes i'm surprised and a bit confused. I have a left rib hump - when bending forward. Major concavity on my right (unlike the lady in the picture). And yes, the right hip looks higher but if i actually place my fingers on the hip bones .. the bones appear fairly even. Torso appears shifted to my left with a left convexity.

So what would you say max is? Other than confused of course.

Hey - i'm more comfortable with the adjustment because i'm in worse shape! yes, i know - you do your exercises faithfully and i do not! Why do i not do them ... well, its important to understand what one is before one goes about trying to assist one's condition. I'm not sure i'm there yet (lol).

[MichelleK]

wouldn't the left lumbar curve cause right lumbar concavity & left lumbar would be convex? i think using the term thoracolumbar is mixing us up. If you have left thoracolumbar curve that means you have one large c shaped curve that encompasses your thorasic & lumbar spine. am i correct here linda?

[MichelleK]

Hi Michelle! Listen, yes i'm surprised and a bit confused. I have a left rib hump - when bending forward. Major concavity on my right (unlike the lady in the picture). And yes, the right hip looks higher but if i actually place my fingers on the hip bones .. the bones appear fairly even. Torso appears shifted to my left with a left convexity.

So what would you say max is? Other than confused of course.

Hey - i'm more comfortable with the adjustment because i'm in worse shape! yes, i know - you do your exercises faithfully and i do not! Why do i not do them ... well, its important to understand what one is before one goes about trying to assist one's condition. I'm not sure i'm there yet (lol).

Hmm, you have left rib hump & concavity on right in thorasic spine? It sounds to me like you are correct about the left thoracolumbar curve not left lumbar. The rib hump & concavity & left convexity would be the case with a c shaped thoracolumbar curve. do you think maybe that's the term that was used?

[mamamax]

That person would have a right rib hump and a right lumbar concavity.

ok - please don't laugh at this, and thank you for your patience. This is very important to me.

If someone (like me) has a left rib hump - are we saying .. that for certain this is from either (1) a left thoracic or (2) a left thoracolumbar curve (regardless of any extra lumbar curvature)?

[MichelleK]

ok - please don't laugh at this, and thank you for your patience. This is very important to me.

If someone (like me) has a left rib hump - are we saying .. that for certain this is from either (1) a left thoracic or (2) a left thoracolumbar curve (regardless of any extra lumbar curvature)?

yes, you got it !!!!

[MichelleK]

maxene, have to go now but i emailed you dr l email address. i think you should check with him about your curves before doing the scroth exercises. good luck!

[LindaRacine]

If you have left thoracolumbar curve that means you have one large c shaped curve that encompasses your thorasic & lumbar spine. am i correct here linda?

wouldn't the left lumbar curve cause right lumbar concavity & left lumbar would be convex?
yes

If you have left thoracolumbar curve that means you have one large c shaped curve that encompasses your thorasic & lumbar spine. am i correct here linda?
This becomes difficult, because it depends on other things. Sometimes, it's just a lot easier to use the King classification:

Type I is a double concave deformity in which the lumbar curve is larger and more rigid than the thoracic curve.
Type II is a double concave deformity in which the thoracic curve is more rigid.
Type III is a thoracic curve.
Type IV is a long thoracic deformity that tilts into the curve.
Type V is a double thoracic curve that tilts into the concavity.

I would assume that Maxene has a type B curve.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

ok - please don't laugh at this, and thank you for your patience. This is very important to me.

If someone (like me) has a left rib hump - are we saying .. that for certain this is from either (1) a left thoracic or (2) a left thoracolumbar curve (regardless of any extra lumbar curvature)?

I think they would have a left thoracic, left double thoracic, left double major, left triple major, left thoracolumbar/lumbar, or left thoraclumbar/lumbar main thoracic curve.

[LindaRacine]

Attached are drawings of the King classification types.

[mamamax]

Thanks ladies .. i believe we have at least established this about Maxene:

Question:
If someone (like me) has a left rib hump - are we saying .. that for certain this is from either (1) a left thoracic or (2) a left thoracolumbar curve (regardless of any extra lumbar curvature)?

Answer: Yes

I must say, now that i'm actually taking charge of understanding my care that the experience is a bit confusing .. so many possibilities, these curves!

[LindaRacine]

If at all helpful, I have a King type II curve. I have a right thoracic rib hump and no waistline on the left side.

[mamamax]

Attached are drawings of the King classification types.

Is this looking at the patient from the back or front?

[LindaRacine]

Thanks ladies .. i believe we have at least established this about Maxene:

Question:
If someone (like me) has a left rib hump - are we saying .. that for certain this is from either (1) a left thoracic or (2) a left thoracolumbar curve (regardless of any extra lumbar curvature)?

Answer: Yes

I must say, now that i'm actually taking charge of understanding my care that the experience is a bit confusing .. so many possibilities, these curves!
That's because it's super confusing. Did you ever post your xrays? I should be able to tell you what you have.

[mamamax]

I think they would have a left thoracic, left double thoracic, left double major, left triple major, left thoracolumbar/lumbar, or left thoraclumbar/lumbar main thoracic curve.

Yeah - point being any number of left curves .. right?

[mamamax]

I think they would have a left thoracic, left double thoracic, left double major, left triple major, left thoracolumbar/lumbar, or left thoraclumbar/lumbar main thoracic curve.

That's because it's super confusing. Did you ever post your xrays? I should be able to tell you what you have.

Still working on getting the digitals.

[LindaRacine]

Is this looking at the patient from the back or front?


From the back. In other words, the B curve would have a right-sided rib hump.

If you're correct about your curve, you have the mirror image of B.

--Linda

[mamamax]

thank you .. yep - looks like with a left rib hump, would have to be a mirror image of B. Thanks Linda .. this is all great information. Maybe most know these things, but i sure didn't. I need the simplified version of things ya know - have not found that book yet :-)

Rib hump - a major indication of curvature direction (left or right). Classifications codes - viewed from patient back. These may seem simple but they are major in trying to understand one's condition vs relying on others (and lets face it human error is always a factor that may surface). So, good to know these things.

Thank you again.

[Qikdraw]

Attached are drawings of the King classification types.

Linda,

Looking at that it looks like I have an 'E' classification? My preop xray is below in my sig lines.

[Qikdraw]

I must say, now that i'm actually taking charge of understanding my care that the experience is a bit confusing .. so many possibilities, these curves!

LOL

Well you're doing the right thing in taking an interest in your care. I was too young to really understand a lot of what was going on when I had my surgery, other than generalities. 26 years later I still don't understand a lot of the terms or how things work. In some ways I don't need to know, I'm more here for emotional support and understanding from people who have gone through, or are going through, the same things as me. Its been amazingly healing for me to be on these boards.

But you are doing the right thing in learning what you need to do for your care, ask the questions and people will try and answer. Thats the great thing about these boards. :)

[mamamax]

That's because it's super confusing. Did you ever post your xrays? I should be able to tell you what you have.

Do not have them available for posting.

Now i have a question about x-rays :-)

Once an x-ray is put up on the light board. How do we tell if we are looking at the patient from the back or the front? No shields (or markings present).

I'm sure everyone knows this but me.

[mamamax]

LOL

Well you're doing the right thing in taking an interest in your care. I was too young to really understand a lot of what was going on when I had my surgery, other than generalities. 26 years later I still don't understand a lot of the terms or how things work. In some ways I don't need to know, I'm more here for emotional support and understanding from people who have gone through, or are going through, the same things as me. Its been amazingly healing for me to be on these boards.

But you are doing the right thing in learning what you need to do for your care, ask the questions and people will try and answer. Thats the great thing about these boards. :)

:-) Thanks QD. Have to say - denial has worked for me for a long long time. Things have however - changed. Have to say, it was wonderful to find some answers to questions today, that have been perplexing the daylights out of me!

[LindaRacine]

Linda,

Looking at that it looks like I have an 'E' classification? My preop xray is below in my sig lines.

Hi Brad...

It's really hard to tell because the vertebrae at the top are obscured. I think your curve may fall outside of the King classification system, because it appears that you have a single curve without tilt. That is, the vertebrae above your single curve are not tilted. I think you may have a Lenke 1A, but I can't be certain.

By the way, I spent some time with Dr. Bradford on Thursday. I've been volunteering at UCSF for a few months. Since semi-retiring, his office is no longer in the academic area with the other surgeons. But he comes over from time-to-time.

One of the UCSF surgeons is giving me some tutoring on xray measurement next week, so I'll hopefully be able to get a bunch of questions answered then.

Regards,
Linda

[LindaRacine]

Do not have them available for posting.

Now i have a question about x-rays :-)

Once an x-ray is put up on the light board. How do we tell if we are looking at the patient from the back or the front? No shields (or markings present).

I'm sure everyone knows this but me.
If there's an R or a RIGHT designation on the xray, that should refer to the right side, as viewed from the back. Brad's xray has an L designation which tells us that he has right-sided thoracic curve.

--Linda

[mamamax]

Yes, i get that, if there are markings.

But what if there are no markings?

Why do i want to know? Maybe I'm just Type A, but I do want to know. I would like to be able to spot a human error (especially if it is in regards to me), we are all human and prone to error, if even only rarely.

Noticed on Brad's x-rays, that the L and R markings (which i presume, indicate patient Left and patient Right), were mirror imaged (or backwards). That confused me.

[LindaRacine]

Yes, i get that, if there are markings.

But what if there are no markings?

Why do i want to know? Maybe I'm just Type A, but I do want to know. I would like to be able to spot a human error (especially if it is in regards to me), we are all human and prone to error, if even only rarely.

Noticed on Brad's x-rays, that the L and R markings (which i presume, indicate patient Left and patient Right), were mirror imaged (or backwards). That confused me.

I'm not very good on anatomy outside of the spine, but I think one can see the heart, which should be on the patient's left side when viewed from behind, on spine xrays.

Not sure why some xray techs get the letters backward. I'm guessing that it's probably because they have to place them backward on the xray cassette. You can sometimes tell what is right or left by looking to see on which side the xrays are measured and/or marked (assuming that the person who measured/marked them knew the correct way to do it).

[Pooka1]

LOL

Well you're doing the right thing in taking an interest in your care. I was too young to really understand a lot of what was going on when I had my surgery, other than generalities. 26 years later I still don't understand a lot of the terms or how things work. In some ways I don't need to know, I'm more here for emotional support and understanding from people who have gone through, or are going through, the same things as me. Its been amazingly healing for me to be on these boards.

But you are doing the right thing in learning what you need to do for your care, ask the questions and people will try and answer. Thats the great thing about these boards. :)

QD,

I have been thinking how it must have been for you.

You must feel like there is a this huge whole in your life that you can't fill.

I have always tried to include my kids in everything possible about their treatment. I don't know how much they understand but I am always there to answer any questions I can or to email questions I can't answer to the surgeon.

I'm glad you are finding some healing here. I also think we don't have so many folks who had surgery as a child and are here as an adult. Some but not so many. So that's good you can talk about that. I mean it's very valuable to me to hear what you are saying now about how you felt then because I think it is likely what my kids are feeling but may not be voicing to me.

So thanks.
sharon

[mamamax]

I'm not very good on anatomy outside of the spine, but I think one can see the heart, which should be on the patient's left side when viewed from behind, on spine xrays.

Not sure why some xray techs get the letters backward. I'm guessing that it's probably because they have to place them backward on the xray cassette. You can sometimes tell what is right or left by looking to see on which side the xrays are measured and/or marked (assuming that the person who measured/marked them knew the correct way to do it).

Hey - the heart ... excellent! How poetic. Thank you Linda! Next time I get an x-ray I'll also wear a diamond stud earing (only one). Ha-ha ... then i will know beyond a shadow of a doubt!

[LindaRacine]

QD,

I have been thinking how it must have been for you.

You must feel like there is a this huge whole in your life that you can't fill.

I have always tried to include my kids in everything possible about their treatment. I don't know how much they understand but I am always there to answer any questions I can or to email questions I can't answer to the surgeon.

I'm glad you are finding some healing here. I also think we don't have so many folks who had surgery as a child and are here as an adult. Some but not so many. So that's good you can talk about that. I mean it's very valuable to me to hear what you are saying now about how you felt then because I think it is likely what my kids are feeling but may not be voicing to me.

So thanks.
sharon

Sharon...

I'm with you.

As I've mentioned before, I have a large collection of books on scoliosis, most of which are vintage. They all have pictures of kids in treatment. Many of those kids are wearing nothing. Many are in contraptions that look totally barbaric. I look at those pictures and can't imagine what it must have been like to have all that stuff happening to them, and then to top it off, have someone bring in a camera to memorialize it.

With that said, I think most of the doctors were just guilty of being a little insensitive. I don't think many of them were uncaring. Kids who went through what Brad went through may be the lucky ones. Looking at Brad's pre-op curve, I have very little doubt that he wouldn't be alive today had he not had surgery.

--Linda

[mamamax]

LOL

Well you're doing the right thing in taking an interest in your care. I was too young to really understand a lot of what was going on when I had my surgery, other than generalities. 26 years later I still don't understand a lot of the terms or how things work. In some ways I don't need to know, I'm more here for emotional support and understanding from people who have gone through, or are going through, the same things as me. Its been amazingly healing for me to be on these boards.

But you are doing the right thing in learning what you need to do for your care, ask the questions and people will try and answer. Thats the great thing about these boards. :)

You know Brad, If I had surgery today at 59 years old - I would be too young to understand what is going on (in detail). And I've never wanted to know - the sudden shift in curiosity is, curious! Hope you know you have my support and I know I have yours. At the end of the day - regardless of how much we know - support is what we all need. I'm glad you have found healing on these boards .. makes it all worth while. Thanks again for your support!

[Pooka1]

Sharon...

I'm with you.

As I've mentioned before, I have a large collection of books on scoliosis, most of which are vintage. They all have pictures of kids in treatment. Many of those kids are wearing nothing. Many are in contraptions that look totally barbaric. I look at those pictures and can't imagine what it must have been like to have all that stuff happening to them, and then to top it off, have someone bring in a camera to memorialize it.

With that said, I think most of the doctors were just guilty of being a little insensitive. I don't think many of them were uncaring. Kids who went through what Brad went through may be the lucky ones. Looking at Brad's pre-op curve, I have very little doubt that he wouldn't be alive today had he not had surgery.

--Linda

Yikes about the contraption pictures. :eek:

I think of Brad and what he is saying now as what my kids might later say when they are adults about their scoliosis treatment and overall journey. Kids don't know how to verbalize all their feelings but an adult like Brad, looking back, can. It's a valuable perspective to me, as valuable as exchanging info on surgery and bracing.

[LindaRacine]

Definitely!

[mamamax]

Sharon...

I'm with you.

As I've mentioned before, I have a large collection of books on scoliosis, most of which are vintage. They all have pictures of kids in treatment. Many of those kids are wearing nothing. Many are in contraptions that look totally barbaric. I look at those pictures and can't imagine what it must have been like to have all that stuff happening to them, and then to top it off, have someone bring in a camera to memorialize it.

With that said, I think most of the doctors were just guilty of being a little insensitive. I don't think many of them were uncaring. Kids who went through what Brad went through may be the lucky ones. Looking at Brad's pre-op curve, I have very little doubt that he wouldn't be alive today had he not had surgery.

--Linda

As much as I am a supporter of non surgical methods - I do understand the value and necessity of surgery in many cases. And it has been pointed out to me, that I could be one of those cases in the future, one never knows. Linda - I have only one vintage book in my possession and it is rather bland (as far as pictures go). The Schroth book (7th edition) however has pictures like you talk about. There are some cases so serious (in this book) that it would break the heart of the most insensitive person on earth (whoever that is). I'm glad our Brad avoided that. In the Schroth book many of the pictures are rather graphic, without covering so that the clinical features are obvious. Brave folks to allow such things in the pursuit of medical knowledge. Braver than me.

Do you have the book by Woodcock (1948)?

[LindaRacine]

Yes, but I have a 1946 first edition, autographed.

[mamamax]

Yes, but I have a 1946 first edition, autographed.

Ha!

Now how did you manage that!!??

My 48' edition has penciled in notations on Figure 8 (Diagram of correct and incorrect methods of derotation). And I thought that was special (for some reason).

Is the Woodcock/Steindler method of derotation, still the recognized standard?

[LindaRacine]

I bought it on eBay or Alibris. Can't remember which.

I've never heard any scoliosis specialist refer to Beatrice Woodcock.

[Qikdraw]

:-) Thanks QD. Have to say - denial has worked for me for a long long time. Things have however - changed. Have to say, it was wonderful to find some answers to questions today, that have been perplexing the daylights out of me!

LOL Well if you're anything like me its like that itch you just cannot scratch! Its like its on the inside and it just won't go away! :eek:

You know Brad, If I had surgery today at 59 years old - I would be too young to understand what is going on (in detail). And I've never wanted to know - the sudden shift in curiosity is, curious! Hope you know you have my support and I know I have yours. At the end of the day - regardless of how much we know - support is what we all need. I'm glad you have found healing on these boards .. makes it all worth while. Thanks again for your support!

Thats what these boards are for. Support. :) Thank you for your support too. :D

I wish these boards had been around when I was going through surgery... Heck I wish the internet had been around then! :D It would have helped my mother a lot, I can't imagine what she went through, but she was with me every day, every time I had to go to my doctor, and every day the entire month I was in the hospital. I simply cannot imagine what its like to watch your child go through something like that, and at the time, how risky it was. Dr Bradford really is a miracle worker, and saved my life.

As much as I am a supporter of non surgical methods - I do understand the value and necessity of surgery in many cases. And it has been pointed out to me, that I could be one of those cases in the future, one never knows.

I hope not. But if you do know that we will support you through it as well. :)

[mamamax]

I bought it on eBay or Alibris. Can't remember which.

I've never heard any scoliosis specialist refer to Beatrice Woodcock.

Seems Arthur Steindler MD liked her - wrote the forward in the 48' 3rd printing. Did he do the forward in 46' as well?

Arthur Steindler:
http://www.ors.org/web/Awards/Steindler.asp

vintage x-ray (thanks to you i know this curve direction is patient oriented right/left/right regardless of markings).
http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/medmuseum/wallexhibits/scoliosis/history/20explanations.html

Interesting the history of orthopedics and physical therapy (once called gymnastic treatment), regarding scoliosis.

[mamamax]

LOL Well if you're anything like me its like that itch you just cannot scratch! Its like its on the inside and it just won't go away! :eek:



Thats what these boards are for. Support. :) Thank you for your support too. :D

I wish these boards had been around when I was going through surgery... Heck I wish the internet had been around then! :D It would have helped my mother a lot, I can't imagine what she went through, but she was with me every day, every time I had to go to my doctor, and every day the entire month I was in the hospital. I simply cannot imagine what its like to watch your child go through something like that, and at the time, how risky it was. Dr Bradford really is a miracle worker, and saved my life.



I hope not. But if you do know that we will support you through it as well. :)

Thanks Brad! In max's little (real or imagined) magical kingdom .. we all support each other - sometimes in mysterious ways :D

Enjoy the evening - just watching a movie here, with the scaredie cat under the bed (lol).

[LindaRacine]

Seems Arthur Steindler MD liked her - wrote the forward in the 48' 3rd printing. Did he do the forward in 46' as well?

Arthur Steindler:
http://www.ors.org/web/Awards/Steindler.asp

vintage x-ray (thanks to you i know this curve direction is patient oriented right/left/right regardless of markings).
http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/medmuseum/wallexhibits/scoliosis/history/20explanations.html

Interesting the history of orthopedics and physical therapy (once called gymnastic treatment), regarding scoliosis.


Nope, there's no forward. She does thank him in her acknowledgments, along with several other MDs.

[Qikdraw]

Hi Brad...

It's really hard to tell because the vertebrae at the top are obscured. I think your curve may fall outside of the King classification system, because it appears that you have a single curve without tilt. That is, the vertebrae above your single curve are not tilted. I think you may have a Lenke 1A, but I can't be certain.

Yeah those old xrays certainly leave a lot to be desired. I'm actually tryng to see if I can get digital copies of my old xrays showing my progression from 5 years old to surgery at 12. I hope I can cause I think that would be pretty cool. Although I do not know if the physical xray can be digitised properly or not. :confused:

By the way, I spent some time with Dr. Bradford on Thursday. I've been volunteering at UCSF for a few months. Since semi-retiring, his office is no longer in the academic area with the other surgeons. But he comes over from time-to-time.

Well if you see him again, can you do me a favour? 1) Give him my warmest regards, 2) ask him if he remembers what papers he wrote about the surgery he performed on me. I know he did write some, I just have no idea where to even look for them. I'd be interested to read them.
You're free to ask him anything he remembers about me as well. I had hoped to go up there from LA where I am to see his group about issues I currently have, but I lost insurance and lack of finances quashed that idea completely. :( For reference you'd have to ask him to remember Brad McGraw, Twin Cities, 1983. :D (I know he does remember me from letters we wrote to each other last year)

Not sure why some xray techs get the letters backward. I'm guessing that it's probably because they have to place them backward on the xray cassette. You can sometimes tell what is right or left by looking to see on which side the xrays are measured and/or marked (assuming that the person who measured/marked them knew the correct way to do it).

If I remember correctly... My xray tech had a magnet that she moved from one side to the other. Which considering the topic here is probably that 'L'.

As I've mentioned before, I have a large collection of books on scoliosis, most of which are vintage. They all have pictures of kids in treatment. Many of those kids are wearing nothing. Many are in contraptions that look totally barbaric. I look at those pictures and can't imagine what it must have been like to have all that stuff happening to them, and then to top it off, have someone bring in a camera to memorialize it.

When I moved from Nova Scotia to Manitoba, obviosuly I had to change doctors, and I think my second appointment with him he had come out to ask my mother if it was ok if he used me for a TV segment the local TV station was doing. So we had to wait for hours, which is not easy with a 5 year old child, then there I am in the examination room in my underwear, literally climbing all over my mother, around the chair and over her lap, and round and round I went. Plus I was non-stop burping, as little boys can do. :eek: My mother was mortified and my doctor (Dr David McQueen) came over and looked her in the eyes and told her it was ok. She relaxed a bit, but not much. Then came in teh camera crew and reporter and there I was being filmed and being a perfect gentleman! No burping, no climbing around chairs. I sat still and was smiling and did everything my doctor asked. I think my mother could have cheerfully throttled me at that point. :D

With that said, I think most of the doctors were just guilty of being a little insensitive. I don't think many of them were uncaring. Kids who went through what Brad went through may be the lucky ones. Looking at Brad's pre-op curve, I have very little doubt that he wouldn't be alive today had he not had surgery.

Well only speaking for myself, Dr McQueen was a really caring doctor, he was simply amazing. He was not only kind and understanding with me, and strict when he needed to be, (He did put me in a plaster cast for 3 months, in summer, cause I kept taking my regular brace off :eek:) he was also very supportive to my mother because my father never came to any of the appointments and was never very supportive of my situation at all. I cannot think what would have happened had we had a lesser doctor than him, he was simply amazing.

As a sidebar to an already lengthy post... :D I only ever saw him angry once. It was after I had my mylegram and I was still in the hospital after a few days. He saw I had been scratching at the hole in my back and started to get angry at me, but I told him I was allergic to the banaid type they were using, and that I had told the nurses and doctor, but that they kept using it. He looked at my chart to see it notated there, he then went down the hallway to the nurses station and I could hear him yelling at them he then got the doctor to come in 'right then' and brought him in to show him what was going on with my back, and tore strips off him left and right. He was furious. In less than a month I was going in for my surgery and I was getting an infection where they did the Mylegram because they were not listening to me or my chart. I certainly got better care after that. :D

[Qikdraw]

QD,

I have been thinking how it must have been for you.

You must feel like there is a this huge whole in your life that you can't fill.

Well thats what you guys are here to fill. :D Seriously, that is true. The support and understanding on these boards is amazing. Yes we sometimes all bicker and argue, but I think in the end we are all supportive of each other and hope for the best. As much as my wife loves me, she doesn't understand and never will. These boards have been a Godsend for me.

I have always tried to include my kids in everything possible about their treatment. I don't know how much they understand but I am always there to answer any questions I can or to email questions I can't answer to the surgeon.

Well I'll tell you back when my parents were discussing surgery they talked around me and it was like I wasn't there. Not on purpose, but it really bothered me for months. (I found out about this just recently in a conversation with my mother, and now remember it) Normally I was a happy child, nothing removed a smile from my face (other than my brother hitting me :D), but my mom told me I was becoming really introverted and less happy. I had talked back at teachers and walked out of class as well. Then one day my parents were sitting in teh livign room talking about my surgery and I came storming into the room and started to really lay into them. Yelling that it was 'my' life they were talking about and that I should be apart of any discussion about it. Now when my mother reminded me about this my first question to my mother was 'How did dad take this?', cause he was VERY strict, you just simply did not talk back to your parents, ever. SHe said he took it very well and that they sat there for a few hours answering every question I had. After that I was back to my normal happy self. All I wanted was to know was what was going on, what decisions had to be made, etc...

So probably your children will look back and say you were very supportive and helpful to them. :)

I'm glad you are finding some healing here. I also think we don't have so many folks who had surgery as a child and are here as an adult. Some but not so many. So that's good you can talk about that. I mean it's very valuable to me to hear what you are saying now about how you felt then because I think it is likely what my kids are feeling but may not be voicing to me.

So thanks.


Well thank you as well. You've given me an understanding of what my mother went through. As I said to Max she was there all the time for me and I don't know how she did it. I can't imaging what it was like to see her child go through everything I went through. You have helped me with that and from that my mother and I have had some very good conversations. So thank you for helping me understand what a mother goes through.

I think of Brad and what he is saying now as what my kids might later say when they are adults about their scoliosis treatment and overall journey. Kids don't know how to verbalize all their feelings but an adult like Brad, looking back, can. It's a valuable perspective to me, as valuable as exchanging info on surgery and bracing.

Wow. Well I have to say that made me feel good. ;) I'm glad I can help and I hope I can help more in the future. If you ever have questions make sure you ask me, I'll do what I can to answer.

Brad

[LindaRacine]

Yeah those old xrays certainly leave a lot to be desired. I'm actually tryng to see if I can get digital copies of my old xrays showing my progression from 5 years old to surgery at 12. I hope I can cause I think that would be pretty cool. Although I do not know if the physical xray can be digitised properly or not. :confused:



Well if you see him again, can you do me a favour? 1) Give him my warmest regards, 2) ask him if he remembers what papers he wrote about the surgery he performed on me. I know he did write some, I just have no idea where to even look for them. I'd be interested to read them.
You're free to ask him anything he remembers about me as well. I had hoped to go up there from LA where I am to see his group about issues I currently have, but I lost insurance and lack of finances quashed that idea completely. :( For reference you'd have to ask him to remember Brad McGraw, Twin Cities, 1983. :D (I know he does remember me from letters we wrote to each other last year)



If I remember correctly... My xray tech had a magnet that she moved from one side to the other. Which considering the topic here is probably that 'L'.



When I moved from Nova Scotia to Manitoba, obviosuly I had to change doctors, and I think my second appointment with him he had come out to ask my mother if it was ok if he used me for a TV segment the local TV station was doing. So we had to wait for hours, which is not easy with a 5 year old child, then there I am in the examination room in my underwear, literally climbing all over my mother, around the chair and over her lap, and round and round I went. Plus I was non-stop burping, as little boys can do. :eek: My mother was mortified and my doctor (Dr David McQueen) came over and looked her in the eyes and told her it was ok. She relaxed a bit, but not much. Then came in teh camera crew and reporter and there I was being filmed and being a perfect gentleman! No burping, no climbing around chairs. I sat still and was smiling and did everything my doctor asked. I think my mother could have cheerfully throttled me at that point. :D



Well only speaking for myself, Dr McQueen was a really caring doctor, he was simply amazing. He was not only kind and understanding with me, and strict when he needed to be, (He did put me in a plaster cast for 3 months, in summer, cause I kept taking my regular brace off :eek:) he was also very supportive to my mother because my father never came to any of the appointments and was never very supportive of my situation at all. I cannot think what would have happened had we had a lesser doctor than him, he was simply amazing.

As a sidebar to an already lengthy post... :D I only ever saw him angry once. It was after I had my mylegram and I was still in the hospital after a few days. He saw I had been scratching at the hole in my back and started to get angry at me, but I told him I was allergic to the banaid type they were using, and that I had told the nurses and doctor, but that they kept using it. He looked at my chart to see it notated there, he then went down the hallway to the nurses station and I could hear him yelling at them he then got the doctor to come in 'right then' and brought him in to show him what was going on with my back, and tore strips off him left and right. He was furious. In less than a month I was going in for my surgery and I was getting an infection where they did the Mylegram because they were not listening to me or my chart. I certainly got better care after that. :D

Hi...

I will definitely bring you up to Dr. Bradford when I next see him.

Are you working on doing something that will result in insurance? The medical care situation in the U.S. is a huge embarrassment as far as I'm concerned. Let's hope for a single payer solution soon! If not, I could very well be in the same position as you in the future.

Regards,
Linda

[Qikdraw]

Hi...

I will definitely bring you up to Dr. Bradford when I next see him.

Thanks! :)

Are you working on doing something that will result in insurance? The medical care situation in the U.S. is a huge embarrassment as far as I'm concerned. Let's hope for a single payer solution soon! If not, I could very well be in the same position as you in the future.

I hope you'll be ok. :(

What I am doing is actually moving back to Canada. The second I am back I have full healthcare again, but that isn't really the reason for the move. California, as you know, is bankrupt and more and more jobs are being lost. The economy was bad enough and now with what has happened recently is just the topper. So about a month ago the wife & I decided the best bet is for us to move to Canada. I have some friends and mother looking for work for me and I've already started looking for a small house to rent. Hopefully I'll have a job lined up or one really quick when we get there. The job market in my home town is much better than here.

The only issues is getting the money together for it. Our goal is to get about 8-10k so when we get there we have a bit of money to rent a house and be ok til I find work. So I am lining up stuff I have kept over 20 years to sell off. Not the greatest thing, but something we have to do.

[LindaRacine]

What I am doing is actually moving back to Canada.
Don't think I haven't thought of that myself! I'm thinking British Columbia.

[Qikdraw]

Don't think I haven't thought of that myself! I'm thinking British Columbia.

Ew. I lived about 6 years in Vancouver. Hated every rainy minute of it. It just hurt my back. Beautiful city, but hated the weather. I'm heading back to Winnipeg, Manitoba. I miss my snow. :D

[Pooka1]

Ew. I lived about 6 years in Vancouver. Hated every rainy minute of it. It just hurt my back. Beautiful city, but hated the weather. I'm heading back to Winnipeg, Manitoba. I miss my snow. :D

I lived in Calgary for three years.

That is a very nice place to live. Very sporty town.

Cold, dry and few bugs... perfect for horses though you need a heated arena to ride in during winter.

Calgary is the best place I've lived for horses. I would move back there if only to get my horse out of this hot, wet, bug-ridden environment south of the Mason-Dixon.

[Lorraine 1966]

This is such a good thread and has been a pleasure to read it. Also guys Australia is a wonderful place to live, I live in Tasmania which is a state of Australia but separate from the whole of it by water and is a beautiful island.
I must say compared to your health care system ours is brilliant. If you are unemployed or unable to work you get free healthcare, Xrays, hospital the whole lot. There is a long waiting list that is a pain, its not perfect though, what is these days.

Brad you certainly bought back memories of myself as a 12 year old hearing I had scoliosis. That was such a hard journey for me and also my mum. My father and her were separated and she didn't have a lot of support. I had to leave my home here and travel by plane across to Melbourne which is in Victoria another state to have my operation. I did not want my mother to know how scared I was as I did not want to worry her any more than she already was, so I kept all my fears to myself.

I was told what was happening by the doctors as things happened, virtually. Mum had to find a job while I was in hospital for 3 months to support us and then catch a train every day to visit me, I was an only child and where she found the strength I honestly don't know. She tried so hard to hide from me the fact that she was so scared but I could see the fear in her eyes. How incredible lucky I was though, I bless her and my doctor every day of my life.

I too have found a lot of comfort from these threads. Reading about each of your problems and then worrying and thinking about all of you especially the young ones, has kept by mind off my own worries. Each of you are always in my thoughts and every day I make sure I come to NSF to catch up with you all and see how you all are.

Regards
Lorraine.

[Pooka1]

Thanks for posting that, Lorraine.

I was struck by your comment that even at 12, you were trying to hide your fear from your mother.

In the ramp up to surgery, my daughter was calm but quiet. I really couldn't judge how scared she was by her demeanor which was sort of flat. I think she was fighting to stay that way for our sake.

She never broke, either before or in the hospital. I never broke before but I did break once in the hospital that she saw and it upset her greatly to see me like that.

Kids can be so strong, stronger than parents.

[mamamax]

Linda and Michelle ~

Thanks so much for our input - lots of good information in this thread for others who may have questions also.

As it turns out, I am:

right thoracic (secondary)

left thoracolumbar (primary)

[MichelleK]

so glad you got it settled! is that what dr L told you at the follow up? Or was there actually a mix up?

[mamamax]

When one is just learning about a subject, it is easy to misunderstand information - the more complex a given subject, perhaps the greater the propensity to misunderstand ... enter, yours truly - like a little child just learning.

Dr. L has cleared up the misunderstanding.

A valuable thread i believe, this one. You see - it is possible to have a right thoracic curve and a left rib hump (and a right hip prominence) when a left thoracolumbar curve is added to the equation.

Also valuable here the classification codes provided by Linda. Here we see a wide array of possibilities, each one having a possible mirror image. The wide array of possibilities corresponding naturally, to a wide array of possible exercise therapy. In my child-mind (compared to those who know so much more) I would postulate, that this makes exercise therapy most challenging.

While it is good to educate oneself as to what condition one's condition is in ... the learning curve may prove as challenging as the etiology itself ;-)

What next? Shall we explore the role of how the nervous system works relative to the vestibular control of body posture and the subsequent effect of exersise on these things? Maybe coming soon to a thread near you :-)