Attacking the President & CEO

[Writer]

posts by pooka1:

"He seems to be a man of faith, not evidence. … Faith in conservative treatments as against evidence for non-fusion (and possibly fusion) surgery. … I suggest that is no way to approach a serious medical issue (if that is indeed his approach)." Post #241

"I was right. He's a man of faith, not evidence. … He's a man of faith AS AGAINST evidence. … Science is a way of knowing. Faith is a way of pretending to know." Post #250

"What isn't ridiculous to suggest is that what gets linked to is simply where O'Brien's hopes and interests lie, as opposed to where the evidence leads. His site, his prerogative I suppose but that is not really being true to what facts are or are not out there." Post #256
++++++++++++++++++++++

In the thread "Setting the Record Straight", which NSF President and CEO Joe O’Brien started as a response to accusations against him on this board, the President outlined the purposes of this forum.

Item 10: "this Forum is intended to be a community center to give all patients and families an opportunity to give and receive vital information and support."

and -- "we need open communication for all in an environment that shows courtesy and respect for, and by, everyone."

Item 11: "Anyone unwilling or unable to abide by the spirit of item #10 is kindly asked to leave the Forum and find another venue to satisfy your needs."

Bizarrely, that very thread has been hijacked and has degenerated into a vehicle for yet more accusations against Joe. Most recently in the form of pooka's "Faith versus evidence" campaign, an insult to the intellect and character of the President.

I invite readers unfamiliar with Joe O’Brien’s deep and broad background in all kinds of scoliosis treatment, and his personal familiarity with the top practitioners worldwide, surgical and conservative, to read post #1 in the thread "Setting the Record Straight." He almost certainly knows more about more kinds of scoliosis treatment than *anybody* on this board.

The proposition that he is promoting or discouraging any kind of treatment out of ignorance or blind faith is preposterous.

Q: Why doesn't he chime in and defend himself? Answer: I'm sure that the organization’s president has more important demands on his time than to constantly comment on petty accusations and get involved in squabbles of the nature that have become all-too-common here. I would expect a moderator to do the defense for him and clamp down on the offenders.

Linda, I request -- again -- that you control the very few people who are consistently out of control, disrupting discussions and alienating many participants with sarcastic or wild remarks, taking over threads, including now the President’s thread, and casting aspersions upon the President himself.

The NSF Forum deteriorated noticeably after the appearance of tx and pooka around the beginning of 2008. You appear mostly to side with them, and never attempt to tone them down, in my observation. No thread in the Non-Surgical area is safe from their abrasive pontifications – yet they are not even interested in non-surgical treatments except insistently to disparage them. Now pooka is essentially attacking the President, as if she understands better than he how to manage the NSF.

Only the moderator can maintain the environment that Joe has defined. The rest of us are hostages. Please enforce the principles that Joe defined above. Thank you.

[Dingo]

I agree with Writer.

A few prolific people use this board as nothing more than a vehicle to argue and discourage.

[mamamax]

June 2009 was the second Annual National Scoliosis Awareness campaign. Here the National Scoliosis Foundation and the Scoliosis Research Society combine efforts and resources toward educational materials for both patients and professionals. Through the efforts of Joe and others like him, this year US Representative Allyson Schwartz from Pennsylvania signs the 2009 Proclamation recognizing the observance of this awareness campaign:

http://sites.google.com/site/wwwscoliosisorgawareness/Home/proclamation---points-of-interest

2009 Points of emphasis in this campaign: http://sites.google.com/site/wwwscoliosisorgawareness/2009-points-of-interest

Info about this campaign: http://sites.google.com/site/wwwscoliosisorgawareness/2009-nsam-campaign-overview

I imagine this was a busy month for Joe - once again sacrificing much time and energy towards helping those with scoliosis and their families who need an advocate that will raise awareness toward a team approach to solving the serious problems associated with this condition. And while he was away doing these things - comments allowed in public forum were not what one would expect to see from the very people he is helping. The very fact that the comments you mention have been made, and been allowed to be made - is a true disservice to Joe and completely undeserved.

Writer - I support your comments 100%.

Also think this would be a good thread for all those who are appreciative of Joe's efforts ... to show their support.

Thank you Joe!

[ptalana]

I totally agree with the writer, this site has unfortunately turned into a forum for people to argue and critisize. I believe that most of us need this forum for support and advice. I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't posted for several months because I don't feel comfortable enough on this forum, too much negativity and tension!!!!:(

[MissEmmyF]

I totally agree with the writer, this site has unfortunately turned into a forum for people to argue and critisize. I believe that most of us need this forum for support and advice. I can't speak for anyone else but I haven't posted for several months because I don't feel comfortable enough on this forum, too much negativity and tension!!!!:(

I agree, sometimes I don't post too just for the simple reason that then I'll have to defend and defend and defend whatever I'm saying...even if I'm not making wild claims, etc. That's not a discussion, or fun, or a nice forum, or encouraging. It's the exact opposite of what this forum is supposed to be all about.

[MichelleK]

I am also in total agreement with writer. I still read the forum, but no longer post because I have no interest in being ridiculed & bullied for voicing my opinion.

[LindaRacine]

Linda, I request -- again -- that you control the very few people who are consistently out of control, disrupting discussions and alienating many participants with sarcastic or wild remarks, taking over threads, including now the President’s thread, and casting aspersions upon the President himself.


Writer...

If someone posted untruths about me, I'd handle that, but Joe is a big boy, and can control whatever he sees fit.

While some individuals definitely have a tendency to be disruptive, they also have the ability to provide useful input. If you don't like what they say, please feel free to engage in the debate. Making them go away will not end the debate, which I believe is the true motive for a request to "control" others.

Sorry.

Regards,
Linda

[betty14]

The degeneration af that thread was disgraceful. It was like watching an episode of Jerry Springer that just never ended.

I am sure that 99% of members here are not gullible idiots, but they are treated that way sometimes, by some members.

As a newbie, I have found some of the threads toxic. What I wish is that highly knowledgeble people would share their knowledge with kindness.

B.

[Writer]

I respectfully disagree with Linda's response. For one thing, I cannot imagine that Joe wants to dive in whenever his intellect is questioned. He's got bigger issues to take care of.

Also, this place should not be a free-for-all. You will see from the plaintive tone of several previous responses to my post that people think my assessment is right on the money. I had had no prior contact with half the above respondents.

You have stated in another thread that your job is to ensure that false information is not disseminated here. I disagree again. Who's to determine what is false? You and pooka?

The job of the NSF Forum moderator is to ensure that the NSF president's directives are adhered to. But they are flagrantly ignored every day by a small minority. If I or mamamax or anybody else protests, here we go again, another nasty argument with the usual suspects, and other members less willing to engage just drop out. It's futile for anybody except the moderator to intervene.

As for the suggestion that my motive in posting is to end debates, false, absolutely false. I am happy to engage in a productive debate where I can learn something useful. It is the TONE of the debates I want to end, as does every respondent so far besides yourself. The debates here tend far too often to be sarcastic, derogatory, personal attacks and so on. Two members in particular, those whose nicks I named, are perpetrators in a high proportion of their posts. Virtually everybody else is civil.

[mamamax]

Agree with you again Writer. Betty14 has also made some accurate observations. A toxic environment is not what patients and families need, in fact what has gone on is counterproductive to the purpose of this forum which is to support those in need. Toxic communication in fact drives many in need away and casts a bad light on the forum's reputation. Betty's comparison to the Jerry Springer show was spot on. And your observation that the job of the NSF Forum moderator is to ensure that the NSF president's directives are adhered to, could not have been better put.

If the too often sarcastic, derogatory, personal attack type "debates" do not end, then I fear a platform created to assist those in need will cease to exist because those who could make a difference through contribution will not bother to do so amid an atmosphere of hostility. Wouldn't it be nice to see someone like Martha Hawes contribute here? An impossibility at this time, the stage is not yet set - and the environment far too hostile and counterproductive.

[christine2]

I feel the same as the others. I have not posted much recently. I have been in the "HOT SEAT" and frankly would rather have a root canal. I only come here now to keep up on new info. This is a long hard journey for all of us. I would like to see it like it was before. People bouncing ideas and information off each other.

[MissEmmyF]

I agree and would just like to say that for those of us who post predominantly in the "non surgical" section of the forum, we all know that's not the most popular area on the forum necessarily. This forum is mainly targeted and geared toward surgical procedures, people who have been fused, etc. That's totally fine, but since many of the members who would normally post/reply in the "non surgical" section are now "scared" to post/reply and share their opinions, that leaves a small portion of the extreme surgery advocates to reply in the "non surgical" section...not exactly who I (or probably most people posting in the "non surgical" section) like to receive the majority of the feedback from.

[txmarinemom]

Agree with you again Writer. Betty14 has also made some accurate observations. A toxic environment is not what patients and families need, in fact what has gone on is counterproductive to the purpose of this forum which is to support those in need. Toxic communication in fact drives many in need away and casts a bad light on the forum's reputation. Betty's comparison to the Jerry Springer show was spot on. And your observation that the job of the NSF Forum moderator is to ensure that the NSF president's directives are adhered to, could not have been better put.

If the too often sarcastic, derogatory, personal attack type "debates" do not end, then I fear a platform created to assist those in need will cease to exist because those who could make a difference through contribution will not bother to do so amid an atmosphere of hostility. Wouldn't it be nice to see someone like Martha Hawes contribute here? An impossibility at this time, the stage is not yet set - and the environment far too hostile and counterproductive.

Mamamax ... I hope in your "heart of hearts", you can at least acknowledge you have thrown more than the usual share of oxygen into the fire since your very first posts (and all the ones you deleted ... shall I link to them again?).

Writer, I don't even know what to say to you (I gave that up long ago). You push a treatment that has no proof, and I simply can't ever take your grandstanding that seriously.

The rest of you can like me or not. I'm realistic ... and for all of you who claim I'm a big mean bully, there are just as many who perceive me differently.

I really think the problem is I don't agree with foo-foo treatments, and some can't stand to believe they ARE foo-foo. There is no miracle, alt, easy treatment ... and to take it personally everytime someone points that out is setting yourself up for a MAJOR letdown.

It's not in my nature to let false treatment claims stand: I've lived with this monster for 31 years, and I'd be remiss to let some of the misinformation here stand.

I'll agree to trying to state things more kindly if some others will agree to respond to anything short of being hit over the head with facts.

Regards,
Pam

[Christl]

I believe there are different sections for a reason. Those who do not agree with things in one section need to leave the section and have healthy discussions in a section where their advice will actually be helpful. Most of us are emotionally driven in this area of our lives and debates do not help in finding answers and support. Discussions help. Discussions are the exchange of words between people with similar issues, ideas, and thoughts in common. I sort of agree with Linda that some users on here should not be booted out. They do have some good advice. I just wish they would use it in the proper section where it is useful to those who need it.

[LindaRacine]

Hi Christi....

If you want a discussion on alternative treatments, where only those who agree are allowed to post, you might want to try www.fixscoliosis.com.

In terms of the NSF forums, if/when anyone attacks an individual as opposed to attacking an idea, I definitely will step in.

--Linda

P.S.
dis⋅cus⋅sion  [di-skuhsh-uhn]
–noun
an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.

[Geish]

I haven't jumped into these "discussions" but have been following along for quite a while. I have to agree with Pam here...I notice a lot of fodder being thrown into the fire by people on both sides of the issue.

To say that someone that has had surgery shouldn't be allowed to post on the non-surgical section is ridiculous. Do you really believe that post surgery patients only advocate for surgery? Do I wish I could have managed my scoliosis without surgery...yes. Was that a viable option for me ...no. Without surgery I would have been in a wheelchair within a matter of years. My body was corkscrewing and crumpling in on itself at an alarming rate. I think each and every post surgery patient wishes that surgery wasn't their only option besides many more years of pain and disability. It doesn't mean our input and opinions are any less valuable because we are now post op.

Everyone here has a right to post in whatever section they choose. They also have to expect to be challenged when their posts deserve challenging.
I for one am appalled at how this entire section has morphed into a constant battle, with the bickering going back and forth on both sides. I for one would like to see it stop. It really isn't helpful to anyone. I am not advocating that people quit challenging things that need challenging, but please, do we really need 18 pages of arguing on a single thread? Do it between yourselves by email or PM.

Ok I am off my soapbox...I am now ready to be blasted by whomever disagrees with my opinion.

PS...Pam I always value your input and opinions. You have a lot to share with everyone here and you never shy away from a tough discussion.

[Dingo]

There is a big difference between

A) Demanding that everyone agree on all subjects
B) Keeping trolls in line

This board has a troll problem.

[txmarinemom]

There is a big difference between

A) Demanding that everyone agree on all subjects
B) Keeping trolls in line

This board has a troll problem.

Define "troll".

Not literally ... I'm not that daft.

The "trolls" who've caused the *most* discord to this forum (if the shoe fits ... or fits your friends, so be it) have been recent additions, IMO ...

(Writer and I have been at it for years. Only one of us admits there's NO EVIDENCE Schroth does NOT correct a curve - outside Weiss' papers.)

[Writer]

I'm realistic ... and for all of you who claim I'm a big mean bully, there are just as many who perceive me differently.
Frankly I doubt the accuracy of this formula. The few posts in this thread by people who say that they seldom post any more because of trepidation are a poignant testimony to how bad the atmosphere here has become. I have corresponded off forum with others. Who knows how numerous the silent majority are?


I really think the problem is I don't agree with foo-foo treatments, and some can't stand to believe they ARE foo-foo. There is no miracle, alt, easy treatment ... and to take it personally everytime someone points that out is setting yourself up for a MAJOR letdown.
It's not in my nature to let false treatment claims stand: I've lived with this monster for 31 years, and I'd be remiss to let some of the misinformation here stand.

This goes to the heart of the matter. It is an arrogant and manipulative stance, like pooka's, anointing yourselves as primary arbiters of Truth here, apparently supported by the moderator.

For one, neither of you has experience with, or much knowledge of at least some of the treatments that are the objects of your derision ("foo-foo treatments"). So you often don't know what you are talking about, yet sling sarcasm anyway. That mantle of scorn that you and pooka wear in so many threads is the acid that has etched away this board for a year and a half. And neither of you ever lets up. You HAVE to have the last word, and you're all over the board. In five years here I have 130 posts; in 1/3 of that period you have posted at over thirty times my rate.

It's not your job or anybody else's here, including the moderator's, to control and protect the rest of us from whatever you have decided is "false information." Most of us are adults. There are a lot of college and advanced degrees among us. We can perfectly well decide an issue for ourselves if permitted unfettered access to a broad selection of opinion and information. Nobody needs to censor it. Weak approaches will eventually be revealed for what they are. Joe has expressly defined this place as a community center for friendly support and information sharing, which is exactly what it should be.


In terms of the NSF forums, if/when anyone attacks an individual as opposed to attacking an idea, I definitely will step in.
But sniping attacks on individuals have been happening regularly for a very long time with no apparent moderator intervention. You've not lifted a finger. Not even our president is safe from deprecatory comments, which is the whole reason for this thread. You will note that a significant majority of respondents so far agree that this is a serious problem.

And why should "attacks" on ideas be so blithely permitted? They quickly degenerate into ad hominem arguments here. It's not at all difficult to disagree with an idea, to query, probe, in a gentlemanly manner if one so chooses -- or is constrained to do so by a moderator.

I strongly support -- at the very least -- forbidding anyone who has acquired a reputation for anti-conservative-treatment contentiousness from posting in Non-Surgical threads, or wherever else that they have wrought havoc. The improvement in atmosphere would be immediate and dramatic. They really should have had one warning, then a stern warning, and then gotten the boot altogether. In many well-run forums they don't even get a warning, they're summarily banned after one offense.

I think even Geish might support the above -- since she is justifiably repulsed by the bickering in the non-surgical section. (Relax, G, no attack from me, LOL.) The same few people are causing it in most cases.

If you, Linda, cannot recognize and acknowledge that there is a very serious problem on this board, and take appropriate measures to correct it, then we either need a separate non-surgical section moderator or a new moderator altogether.

[mamamax]

Mamamax ... I hope in your "heart of hearts", you can at least acknowledge you have thrown more than the usual share of oxygen into the fire since your very first posts (and all the ones you deleted ... shall I link to them again?).

Writer, I don't even know what to say to you (I gave that up long ago). You push a treatment that has no proof, and I simply can't ever take your grandstanding that seriously.

The rest of you can like me or not. I'm realistic ... and for all of you who claim I'm a big mean bully, there are just as many who perceive me differently.

I really think the problem is I don't agree with foo-foo treatments, and some can't stand to believe they ARE foo-foo. There is no miracle, alt, easy treatment ... and to take it personally everytime someone points that out is setting yourself up for a MAJOR letdown.

It's not in my nature to let false treatment claims stand: I've lived with this monster for 31 years, and I'd be remiss to let some of the misinformation here stand.

I'll agree to trying to state things more kindly if some others will agree to respond to anything short of being hit over the head with facts.

Regards,
Pam

Pam -

What you have said about me, is wrong.

What you have said about Writer is wrong.

What you have said about Joe and many others here is - WRONG

And it all comes under the category of false accusation.
Example: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7733

I would like to ask you once again ... are you still threatening legal action against Joe O'Brien?

REFERENCE: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/member.php?u=114

[Pooka1]

And why should "attacks" on ideas be so blithely permitted?

This is the entire issue.

Some here do not believe ideas without evidence, in some cases over decades and decades as in the case of Schroth, should be challenged per se. I mean they seem to think that Schroth was a person, Weiss is a person, therefore challenging their ideas and asking for evidence constitutes "attacking" them on a personal level. That's not how science and medicine work.

It's also obvious that many here incorrectly perceive their idea being criticized as them being criticized or discouraged for the sake of discouraging or whatever.

Perhaps you can agree both those things are serious impediments to the spread of QUALITY, evidence-driven information.

[Pooka1]

This board has a troll problem.

That imaginary problem is dwarfed by the very real problem of folks not understanding how to approach the scientific literature.

It's orders of magnitude worse and might constitute the worst problem.

As an example, we have seen people claiming three pages of citations in pubmed by a certain author constitute some knock-down evidence for Schroth per se. But when you actually look at the studies, many aren't even dealing with Schroth and the ones that are have few patients and/or also used bracing.

I ran my cursory analysis of these pubs by the good folks at Quackwatch who largely agreed with me that this is no knock-down set of papers for Schroth. See "Quackwatch and Schroth" thread.

That, in a nutshell, is the problem. People just don't understand how to approach the literature and don't understand why most published results are false.

Something that is likely though not guaranteed to be true are longitudinal studies with actual patients that present easy to measure things. Certain surgical treatments are doing this. And when a treatment has been around for decades and has been studied by a trained orthopedic surgeon for several years and still has no knock-down proof, that is a type of evidence.

Now something like torso rotation PT where we have one or two lone voices in the wilderness might fits the pattern of the guys who found H. pylori. Maybe if they ever develop enough steam they can accumulate enough evidence to show it works. But what we don't know is if, like Schroth, it has been tried for a long time and still has little evidence. Also, the fact that other forms of PT have little evidence doesn't bode well though is not dispositive.

[Pooka1]

posts by pooka1:

"He seems to be a man of faith, not evidence. … Faith in conservative treatments as against evidence for non-fusion (and possibly fusion) surgery. … I suggest that is no way to approach a serious medical issue (if that is indeed his approach)." Post #241

"I was right. He's a man of faith, not evidence. … He's a man of faith AS AGAINST evidence. … Science is a way of knowing. Faith is a way of pretending to know." Post #250

"What isn't ridiculous to suggest is that what gets linked to is simply where O'Brien's hopes and interests lie, as opposed to where the evidence leads. His site, his prerogative I suppose but that is not really being true to what facts are or are not out there." Post #256
++++++++++++++++++++++



If someone was a racist, would it be okay to attack that idea?

If someone was a Holocaust denier, would it be okay to attack that idea?

I'm wondering what your answer is at this point whereas I wasn't wondering before. And I'm wondering NOT because I think you are a racist or Holocaust denier but I don't think you see the overarching problem with your post.

What you are really complaining about here is that my comments are too factual.

There's folks interested in the most up to date facts and there is everyone else. This forum has at least these two camps and I don't see a resolution just like I don't see a time when cases like Kitzmiller v. Dover suddenly stop threatening innocent kids and rational society.

It's a problem. There are lots of problems.

[Pooka1]

I believe that most of us need this forum for support and advice. (

In re advice, do you want science and evidence driven advice or speculative advice?

Do you want to know what is known or what is hoped?

[Pooka1]

I believe there are different sections for a reason. Those who do not agree with things in one section need to leave the section and have healthy discussions in a section where their advice will actually be helpful. Most of us are emotionally driven in this area of our lives and debates do not help in finding answers and support. Discussions help. Discussions are the exchange of words between people with similar issues, ideas, and thoughts in common. I sort of agree with Linda that some users on here should not be booted out. They do have some good advice. I just wish they would use it in the proper section where it is useful to those who need it.

I agree that some come on here simply looking for support of their treatment choice and not the evidence case for or against it. Not everyone wants facts all the time.

Maybe we should have one section called:

"Science/Medicine/Evidence"

and one called:

"Emotional support/Other"

No evidence for or against is allowed to be posted in the second section which will carry a huge disclaimer and warning to that effect.

Would that help? I think it would address the concerns people have stated.

[bas2101]

Agree with Writer.

Joe has been the saving grace regarding my 14 year-old daughter's 7 years with scoliosis, always thoughtful, considerate, and willing to offer more information than I could have gathered in my many years of researching this disorder. And, he is a wealth of information in both surgical options, and alternatives-his life's work IS scoliosis. Most importantly, he took the fear out of having scoliosis, when numerous others were scarring the hell out of us. I can only praise and thank this incredibly wise, knowledgeable, and generous man-I assume anyone else who knows him, would do the same.

[MichelleK]

UGH!!! Some of you are missing the point, again!!! Nobody is saying we only want to have people that agree post, but some of the posters are rude, arrogant & aggressive. There are many ways to make your point, doesn't have to be done in a way that's disrespectful. I give up!! Too bad info can't be shared like adults on here. I'm out

[Geish]

I don't support censorship...please don't try to speak for me. I thought I made that point clear when I stated that everyone has a right to post in whatever section they so choose. Also, don't say what you think I may or may not support. I am capable of making my thoughts known all by myself.

I believe every voice has a right to be heard...even those who disagree with me. I just fought a battle with our local school over this very issue... and won I might add. We have a great thing here in the US, where I happen to be from, it's called the First Amendment. Don't try to take away someone's right to express themselves. You may disagree with what they have to say, but they still have a right to say it.

[betty14]

Although you have a lot of knowledge to share, the manner in which you share it is the problem. I hope this does not overstep the bounds of what is allowed in this forum, but I feel that many (not all, maybe 40%) of your posts are aggressive, beligerent, and profoundly arrogant.

It is right to let people know when they have mispercieved a study or made inappropriate extrapolations, however when this is done in a manner that builds up your own sense of superiority and puts others down, that is not right. And post after post after post of repetition....endless fighting is so fruitless. People do have busy lives outside of cyber self-defense.

If your goal is to get people to come over to your way of thinking, you need to change your style of communication to better meet that goal. Rhetoric is an art. The best medical professionals are also great communicators, very important when your job is to serve people.

I fear your respsonse to this will be something along the lines of - Betty14, you are not intellectually honest, you just don't want the truth, you are a shill for some method or other .... don't bother to say those things. I've read them so many times before.

I'd like to ask that all members who have been hesitant to post on this section start posting again, and simply do not repond to your posts, unless the tone of said post is civil and adds something helpful to a discussion. That should cut down on the repetition and fruitless arguing. I intend to follow my new rule starting now.

Goodbye for now, Pooka1. Ah, the sense of calm that I feel in saying that!

Writer: I apologize if I have hijacked your thread. I won't do it again. Cheers. B.

[Dingo]

#108 on this page (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8637&page=8)

Background: CD and I are talking about Melatonin and Scoliosis. For some reason this irritates tx and she lashes out at concerned dad.

txmarinemom

How cute you're now so intuitive/cognizant. Look who you've been following and make your own judgement. Who's the expert, CD? If it's Dingo, I'll eat my hardware.

I suspect the hamsters are happy ... drinking (vs. *this). I see you finally *maybe* see the folly of Dingo's posts ...

For YOUR sake, I *hope* so.

To be fair to txmarinemom she's not the only one who resorts to personal attacks and bullying. PNUTTRO, Karen Ocker and LindaRacine do the same thing. Pooka1 argues A LOT but I can't remember her throwing too many direct insults.

[PNUTTRO]

To be fair to txmarinemom she's not the only one who resorts to personal attacks and bullying. PNUTTRO, Karen Ocker and LindaRacine do the same thing. Pooka1 argues A LOT but I can't remember her throwing too many direct insults.


I was waiting for my name to get tossed in there.

Flattered that I got first billing.

[MissEmmyF]

Although you have a lot of knowledge to share, the manner in which you share it is the problem. I hope this does not overstep the bounds of what is allowed in this forum, but I feel that many (not all, maybe 40%) of your posts are aggressive, beligerent, and profoundly arrogant.

It is right to let people know when they have mispercieved a study or made inappropriate extrapolations, however when this is done in a manner that builds up your own sense of superiority and puts others down, that is not right. And post after post after post of repetition....endless fighting is so fruitless. People do have busy lives outside of cyber self-defense.

If your goal is to get people to come over to your way of thinking, you need to change your style of communication to better meet that goal. Rhetoric is an art. The best medical professionals are also great communicators, very important when your job is to serve people.

I fear your respsonse to this will be something along the lines of - Betty14, you are not intellectually honest, you just don't want the truth, you are a shill for some method or other .... don't bother to say those things. I've read them so many times before.

I'd like to ask that all members who have been hesitant to post on this section start posting again, and simply do not repond to your posts, unless the tone of said post is civil and adds something helpful to a discussion. That should cut down on the repetition and fruitless arguing. I intend to follow my new rule starting now.

Goodbye for now, Pooka1. Ah, the sense of calm that I feel in saying that!

Writer: I apologize if I have hijacked your thread. I won't do it again. Cheers. B.

Well said, I totally agree. If there is going to be such a minimal amount of censorship on the non surgical forum, I'm just going to start ignoring posts that are bothersome or quarrelsome. After all, a response and then a debate is exactly what is wanted. So, if we don't give in to that, those certain people won't be able to get their "kicks." Not to mention, I also don't have time to constantly be checking the forum 24/7 in order to defend myself. Personally, I have better things to do with my time.

[Dingo]

Here is a gem from PNUTTRO.

#111 from this thread (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8637&page=8)


I think that you want scoliosis to NOT be genetic because that gets you off the hook. If its genetic, then maybe your genes are what caused your son's problem. (Which is also some F***ed up reasoning--and untrue.)

Check out what set PNUTTRO off in the first place. I posted a simple chart on Polio. How does this atmosphere help parents or children with Scoliosis?

This board is not well moderated.

[MissEmmyF]

Here is a gem from PNUTTRO.

#111 from this thread (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8637&page=8)



Check out what set PNUTTRO off in the first place. I posted a simple chart on Polio. How does this atmosphere help parents or children with Scoliosis?

This board is not well moderated.

WOW, I did not see that post before! That's awful. Not only is that totally inappropriate and demeaning for the sole purpose of being demeaning, but like you said, that's extremely poor moderation also! I'm glad this thread has been started to shed some light - thanks Writer.

[Pooka1]

1. (Again) the Non-surgical forum should be renamed "Emotional Support/Other" and posts containing evidence for or against or anything resembling a fact should be deleted ASAP. This is where prayers for others should be posted also.

2. I will never understand why folks want someone else to control what they read. Why can't you do it yourself? Is anyone here truly being forced against their will to read certain posts? I don't understand the problem other than being too lazy to think for yourself.

3. The multiple complaints about form (tone, etc.) are really complaints about substance that dare not speak their name (because it would be obviously silly). So folks hide behind "form" complaints when really, the comments are just too factual and can't be worded in any way acceptable to certain readers. That is, there is NO way to word things that these reader simply finds too factual for their taste. That way, they never have to face facts.

4. Geish's post in this thread blows every other post completely out of the water. I congratulate her on the post and for her victory over the local school administration.

[Qikdraw]

I agree with Linda.

This whole thread is nothing more than an attempt to get rid of posters Writer does not like and trying to get others to rally behind him. Writer himself is guilty of 'Goodwin's Law' (http://www.answers.com/topic/godwin-s-law?cat=biz-fin) in this post (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=77335&postcount=191), where he complains of 'ideological brownshirt tactics' on people who disagree with him. This is also the post where he tries to get rid of Linda as well.

From all my readings no one has ever stated no one should try alternative treatments, and there is active support for doing so, by pretty much everyone. What some have said is you have to research it and not get taken in by wild claims, which some treatments have done. Some who makes these wild claims get brought up short by some people, as they should. Just like people should be wary of surgeons who want to rush into surgery.

Scoliosis has a lot of emotional baggage and people are seaching for answers, we should be working together and finding common ground, of which there really is a lot of, and helping people, rather than arguing all the time.

Just my two cents...

Brad

[Ballet Mom]

Oh, and Dingo,

I'm sorry, but I can't possibly agree that PNUTTRO even comes close to the level of the others on this board. I know that she puts you through your paces at times, but you do fine, and she is quite knowledgeable and interesting to read. :)

[Pooka1]

I was waiting for my name to get tossed in there.

Flattered that I got first billing.

I luvs ya, P. I have had relatively little biology such that I rely on you obligately for that stuff.

You're my bio hero. :D

[Pooka1]

Pooka1 argues A LOT but I can't remember her throwing too many direct insults.

I try to always attack just the wacky idea, not the person. It's not fair to attack the person because they may have been drenched in dogma from day one though there is some obligation to acquaint oneself with the facts.

If I attacked someone rather than their belief I certainly apologize. I might have, I'm far from perfect.

[LindaRacine]

But sniping attacks on individuals have been happening regularly for a very long time with no apparent moderator intervention. You've not lifted a finger. Not even our president is safe from deprecatory comments, which is the whole reason for this thread. You will note that a significant majority of respondents so far agree that this is a serious problem.

And why should "attacks" on ideas be so blithely permitted? They quickly degenerate into ad hominem arguments here. It's not at all difficult to disagree with an idea, to query, probe, in a gentlemanly manner if one so chooses -- or is constrained to do so by a moderator.

I strongly support -- at the very least -- forbidding anyone who has acquired a reputation for anti-conservative-treatment contentiousness from posting in Non-Surgical threads, or wherever else that they have wrought havoc. The improvement in atmosphere would be immediate and dramatic. They really should have had one warning, then a stern warning, and then gotten the boot altogether. In many well-run forums they don't even get a warning, they're summarily banned after one offense.

I think even Geish might support the above -- since she is justifiably repulsed by the bickering in the non-surgical section. (Relax, G, no attack from me, LOL.) The same few people are causing it in most cases.

If you, Linda, cannot recognize and acknowledge that there is a very serious problem on this board, and take appropriate measures to correct it, then we either need a separate non-surgical section moderator or a new moderator altogether.

If you have examples of attacks on people vs attacks on ideas, I'm happy to address them.

I'll repeat what I said yesterday. If you want a forum where no one who has any problem with any alternative treatment, www.fixscoliosis.com is going to make you very happy.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

This is the entire issue.

Some here do not believe ideas without evidence, in some cases over decades and decades as in the case of Schroth, should be challenged per se. I mean they seem to think that Schroth was a person, Weiss is a person, therefore challenging their ideas and asking for evidence constitutes "attacking" them on a personal level. That's not how science and medicine work.

It's also obvious that many here incorrectly perceive their idea being criticized as them being criticized or discouraged for the sake of discouraging or whatever.

Perhaps you can agree both those things are serious impediments to the spread of QUALITY, evidence-driven information.
This is a really important point. If a surgeon came here, and started posting things about some surgical procedure that had no proof of potential benefit, I'd have the same problem.

I've said this SO many times. If you post things that are proved, you won't have any problem with anyone. But, proof means publication in peer reviewed journals with some long-term followup.

--Linda

[Writer]

I will not undertake an extended argument with pooka about evidence and facts, because with her any discussion is futile. The reader of all these posts will note that she has prejudged the entire non-surgical section as "Emotional Support/Other," another attempt to disparage everything but the scalpel. With that prejudgment, she barges in and disrupts non-surgical area discussions, attempting to enforce her prejudgment. (But is not the entire forum here for emotional support, as well as information? Scoliosis can be very traumatic.)

Pooka pontificates about science as though she were Einstein. But she does not write with the precision of a top scientist. Compare with Betty14’s posts when she describes muscle or brace function. That is scientific authority, and I recognize it and suspect others do, as well. For instance: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9000&page=7

Nobody needs to lecture me about evidence and facts. Pook and tx keep asking who I am. I am a PhD from a top-five research university, have held postdocs, published widely, and edit an academic journal. I’ve read a massive amount of published literature in all kinds of fields including several in biomedicine. Defining fact is not so simplistic as pooka and Linda imply. For one, today’s body of facts is tomorrow’s outdated paradigm: see Thomas Kuhn’s Structure of Scientific Revolutions. I think SOSORT knows about tomorrow, though anybody would concede the need for surgery in some cases.

Interestingly, though, in this discussion we are accumulating evidence and facts. Here’s a tentative tally of indisputable facts:

-- Several people have testified that they feel intimidated here, don’t post for fear of being attacked. I know other examples. This is a result absolutely contrary to the express wishes of the NSF president.

-- The problem originates with a very few people, chiefly txmarinemom and pooka, who exasperate, badger, intimidate a large contingent of vocal and silent members, even though they may sometimes be appreciated by others.

-- The result is a board that is partly dysfunctional, and has been so for over a year. Some of people, number unknown, have disappeared because of it.

-- The problem is serious enough that the very president of the NSF has been subjected to obnoxious challenges by the primary offenders. The moderator states that she is disinclined to intervene.

On the basis of these facts, any reasonable person would conclude that something needs to be done. More FACTS:

-- The only person aside from the president who can correct the problem is the moderator.

-- The moderator is doing nothing visible to correct the problem. In the post directly above she implies that the problem is only mine and that I should leave to solve it. It is not only my problem -- it affects dozens at least.

-- The moderator *has* intervened recently in cases where she regards Ballet Mom or mamamax – both of them pursuing conservative treatment -- as stepping over the line. This gives the impression of favoritism.

-- The moderator has publicly defined her job as she sees it:

I feel it's very important for people to have the whole truth about all scoliosis treatments. When people come here and try to convince others to try some unproved treatment . . . . . . it's my job to make certain that these forums don't get inundated with false information. --Linda
--This job definition is found nowhere in the NSF forum guidelines. http://www.scoliosis.org/forum.php The guidelines imply instead that the individual should use his/her own judgment to separate wheat from chaff. Nowhere do the guidelines declare that this forum will permit only proven facts to be stated in a post.

CONCLUSIONS
-- A focus on their concept of "proven facts" or "evidence" and strong support for surgeons and surgery appears to be an obsession with pooka and the moderator. They summarily dismiss any possibility that exercise therapy could work, which is the party line of the SRS, an organization primarily focused on surgery.

I'm guessing that's because surgeons are used to dealing with tangible results, and so far, there is no definitive research that shows that any specific exercises help or hurt. --Linda
-- I conclude that the moderator is either unconcerned about maintaining the atmosphere specifically defined by the NSF and its president, or she is passively or actively encouraging her allies to pester members in the non-surgical section because it advances an agenda of disparaging conservative treatments. If that seems unfair, please prove my conclusions untrue by doing something constructive about the underlying problem, not just shooing complainers away.

-- I finally conclude that probably nothing will improve until we have another moderator to supplement or replace the current moderator, because Linda’s concept of the job is not the same as the NSF guidelines’ concept of the job, evidenced by both performance history and her own public statements.

[LindaRacine]

Writer,

Cheers to you for your inception of this thread! Your introduction is very well stated, and I applaud you for bringing this to the forefront. I am particularly disturbed over the sarcastic insults flung at Joe O’Brien along with the threat of legal action. And Linda, while I appreciate your day-to-day involvement as moderator, I have to agree with Writer that you do show favoritism, at least toward Pooka1. Yesterday, I noticed that it wasn’t until Ballet Mom (whose posts I find very insightful) countered Pooka1 on some of her statements, that you said “OK, enough on religion.” I don’t know of anyone here who has brought up religion more often than Pooka1, slamming it at every opportunity. She has mocked my faith on numerous occasions, but instead of firing back, I quietly say a prayer for her, because what I really see in her posts is a good-hearted person with a restless soul that is searching. Nonetheless, you have never reprimanded her for keeping her thoughts to herself regarding religion. How many people who have religious beliefs may have been turned away from this forum on that alone?

Quite frankly, I’m really surprised why those who think they know it all have not started their own forum by now.
You might want to check all the threads. Pooka1 and I don't always agree, nor do Txmarinemom always agree. Quite the opposite much of the time. And, I will agree that there are some (including a few who are on the alternative side), who could do a much better job of choosing their words. I don't want this to become a site where everyone has to be politically correct in everything they say.

If you have a problem with specific things people are saying that are disrespectful, demeaning, or condescending, and I'll address those posts. But, I'm not going to ban anyone for their views.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

Sharon, et. al...

Discussion of beliefs is now banned, and all posts that discuss the topic have been/will be removed if found.

--Linda

[Pooka1]

Nobody needs to lecture me about evidence and facts. Pook and tx keep asking who I am. I am a PhD from a top-five research university, have held postdocs, published widely, and edit an academic journal.

1. Which field are you in? Social science or humanities?

2. How many of the three pages of Weiss pubs constitute good evidence for Schroth permanently reducing curves or preventing progression?

3. How many of the pubs actually are studies designed to test the efficacy of Schroth exercises in doing the above?

4. Are you Weiss? I thought you might be a while back but when I realized Weiss was an orthopedic surgeon I thought probably not.

[LindaRacine]

Ladies and gentlemen...

Can we agree to not call alternative treatments things like "woo woo" or other terms that are dismissive?

Thanks.

Regards,
Linda

[betty14]

This is the second time I'm writing this, as it appears that my post did not actually post....argh....so here's another version of what I tried to post earlier.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I cannot change anyone. I can only change the way I respond. I could never "win" an arguement with a person who is hostile, arrogant, and has a rabid desire to be right all the time.

In fact, trying to argue with such a person literally feeds his or her need to be superior. Continuing to respond to that person actually gives the aggressor permission to continue. It is, in fact, positive reinforcement.

I suggest a technique that I, and perhaps you, have found useful when training dogs or children:

Reward good behaviour (informative, thoughtful posts or constructive critique delivered with respect) with "thank you for your input, you helped me understand that better"

Do not reward bad behaviour (insults to your intelligence or beliefs, suggestions that you don't want to know facts) with a response at all. Or reply once alone to inform the person that you will not be drawn into a fruitless arguement.

If you do not reply, the aggressor will have no one to talk to, and will lose his or her power. (and really, is there not more to life than being the alpha dog of a web forum?). Take back your power folks, by changing your strategies to get the outcome - a useful non-surgical forum - you desire.

[Writer]

Thanks for the excellent advice, Betty. That is a profoundly insightful post. I'll henceforth pay no attention to those who deserve no attention.

[LindaRacine]

Here is a gem from PNUTTRO.

#111 from this thread (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8637&page=8)



Check out what set PNUTTRO off in the first place. I posted a simple chart on Polio. How does this atmosphere help parents or children with Scoliosis?

This board is not well moderated.

When you find specific posts that you feel are out of bounds, please report them by clicking on the white triangle with red outline. Please do not report posts just because you don't agree with the logic (not-mentioning-any-names-MM... oops).

[LindaRacine]

To be fair to txmarinemom she's not the only one who resorts to personal attacks and bullying. PNUTTRO, Karen Ocker and LindaRacine do the same thing. Pooka1 argues A LOT but I can't remember her throwing too many direct insults.
If I have ever been disrespectful of someone's personality or character, I apologize. I try very hard not to do that (even though I may occasionally think it). Please note that I did apologize the one time that I stepped over the line Dingo. If anyone finds such posts, please report them.

--Linda

[LindaRacine]

Pooka pontificates about science as though she were Einstein. But she does not write with the precision of a top scientist.


And... that's respectful?

[Sherie]

This is the second time I'm writing this, as it appears that my post did not actually post....argh....so here's another version of what I tried to post earlier.
-

Betty

Your post was there, I read it. Mine, yours and whoever else mentioned the "R" word were deleted.

Linda

I do respect your opinion and have more than once sought out your advice, but I too get the feeling there is favoritism here. You had previously banned anyone from discussing religion a while back, yet I've seen Pooka rant on about young creationist since that time. Why is she allowed to get away with this? Since we are censoring the content of this forum, does that mean we're not allowed to discuss anything outside of scoliosis? That's the implication I'm getting, yet, I just saw 1/2 a page on horses, had absolutely nothing to do with scoliosis. Is that ok? Where do we draw the line?

[LindaRacine]

Betty

Your post was there, I read it. Mine, yours and whoever else mentioned the "R" word were deleted.

Linda

I do respect your opinion and have more than once sought out your advice, but I too get the feeling there is favoritism here. You had previously banned anyone from discussing religion a while back, yet I've seen Pooka rant on about young creationist since that time. Why is she allowed to get away with this? Since we are censoring the content of this forum, does that mean we're not allowed to discuss anything outside of scoliosis? That's the implication I'm getting, yet, I just saw 1/2 a page on horses, had absolutely nothing to do with scoliosis. Is that ok? Where do we draw the line?
I don't have time to read every post. If you see a post about religion, please report it.

If I recall correctly, Pooka's posts had to do with balance. There are plenty of posts that are not scoliosis specific. Religion is different, because people have such diverse opinions, and may get offended by other's views.

Again, if you see something that you feels is outside the limits of decency, PLEASE REPORT IT~

[Sherie]

Again, if you see something that you feels is outside the limits of decency, PLEASE REPORT IT~

I will, from this point forward, though I'm not one to jump on everything someone says to suit my taste. I would hope that as adults, we can all play be the same rules and censor our own comments. Throwing in a little compassion and humanity doesn't hurt either.

[Sherie]

Ladies and gentlemen...

Can we agree to not call alternative treatments things like "woo woo" or other terms that are dismissive?

Thanks.

Regards,
Linda

Thank you, this is very demeaning and exactly the point trying to be made.

[Lorraine 1966]

Writer, you have been a member of this forum since 2004 and only written what was it 133 posts, so that shows you really don't put a lot down in words eh.
Then out of the blue comes this thread. Were you having a bad hair day???

Attacking Linda of all people, she is a big girl and can stand up for herself, and she has helped me no end, I haven't seen you send me any messages of encouragement like she has and so have others you have criticized. She is an excellent moderator who does her best on a huge forum so for crying out loud get onto things that actually mean something, instead of stabbing people in the back.
Those of you who believe in alternate treatments get so upset when we don't agree with you. What upsets me more than anything and I have said it before. It is not right to state on here that this alternate treatment works, and that does and this does and so on and so on. People like Pam and Sharon( where on earth you ever got Karen Ocker into all this Dingo I don't know, as Karen is hardly around here posting any more,) anyway people like I have mentioned just state the facts, not things that have not yet been proven to work.
Now surely that is a good thing as young people who have scoliosis read all this and surely you don't want them to be mislead.
Debate is good, has always been good, is good to read so are the facts that debate brings out.
Anyway that's it from me and I am sorry for the people who have actually been named in my post, I meant nothing derogatory against them I was just trying to point out a few things.

I am still trying to work out how mamamax got a copy of a visitors message to Joe O"Brien, forgotten which post it said it on now, thought that should have been private. You don't have to watch Days of our Lives, just lets all get on NSF!!

Lorraine..

[Pooka1]

Ladies and gentlemen...

Can we agree to not call alternative treatments things like "woo woo" or other terms that are dismissive?

Thanks.

Regards,
Linda

I agree.

(text added because the message was too short to post)

[Pooka1]

Since we are censoring the content of this forum, does that mean we're not allowed to discuss anything outside of scoliosis? That's the implication I'm getting, yet, I just saw 1/2 a page on horses, had absolutely nothing to do with scoliosis. Is that ok? Where do we draw the line?

You have to read/understand the thread. Riding (not horses as you state) is used as a useful example of a concept that is relevant to scoliosis. I specifically wrote that post as an extension of an earlier thread on that scoliosis subject. It's important to follow along if you are going to comment as you have.

If you are also referring to the post where I was specifically asked about things that can help a scoliotic person learn to ride then you should direct your comment at the person who asked me or ask Linda to remove the post. I'm not sure I helped her but at least I tried.

[Pooka1]

I think we have to remember that Linda is a volunteer. Even if she was paid, it's hard to imagine it would ever be enough to deal with this forum.

Folks should step up to the plate and take control of what they read instead of trying to take control of what others write. If everyone did that then we wouldn't need a moderator.

[mamamax]

Lorraine - You may be missing the point entirely. Firstly you question Writers credibility based upon the fact that since 2004 he has only made 133 postings? My goodness, Joseph O'Brien has only made 32 since 2003. Would you then also question his credibility? A faulty premise i suggest. To accuse Writer of having a bad hair day .. another example of mocking .. though i will admit trying to straighten things out in this forum may make one's hair stand on end.

You may be missing the point also about the purpose of this forum - which is support for families and patients in whatever treatment they choose. NOT debate over it. Let me put forth a question. Would those choosing surgery expect to be required to debate its merits? No. Why then should those who choose non surgical methods be subjected to endless debate?

Perhaps a separate section should be opened up for debate ... that may solve a host of problems and allow those skilled in the art of debate to polish their skills. But certainly a non surgical section designed to offer the same support people in the surgical section are granted - should not be turned into a debate section - any more than the surgical section should be turned into a debate section.

You have questioned how I obtained certain information. It is public information found here under Joe's profile: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/member.php?u=114

In your last paragraph you state: You don't have to watch Days of our Lives, just lets all get on NSF!!

This is true in the non-surgical section only. The surgical section has no problem in enjoying a certain freedom to express themselves void of confrontational debate. The non-surgical section is - respectfully asking for the same luxury.

[mamamax]

I will not undertake an extended argument with pooka about evidence and facts, because with her any discussion is futile. The reader of all these posts will note that she has prejudged the entire non-surgical section as "Emotional Support/Other," another attempt to disparage everything but the scalpel. With that prejudgment, she barges in and disrupts non-surgical area discussions, attempting to enforce her prejudgment. (But is not the entire forum here for emotional support, as well as information? Scoliosis can be very traumatic.)

Pooka pontificates about science as though she were Einstein. But she does not write with the precision of a top scientist. Compare with Betty14’s posts when she describes muscle or brace function. That is scientific authority, and I recognize it and suspect others do, as well. For instance: http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9000&page=7

Nobody needs to lecture me about evidence and facts. Pook and tx keep asking who I am. I am a PhD from a top-five research university, have held postdocs, published widely, and edit an academic journal. I’ve read a massive amount of published literature in all kinds of fields including several in biomedicine. Defining fact is not so simplistic as pooka and Linda imply. For one, today’s body of facts is tomorrow’s outdated paradigm: see Thomas Kuhn’s Structure of Scientific Revolutions. I think SOSORT knows about tomorrow, though anybody would concede the need for surgery in some cases.

Interestingly, though, in this discussion we are accumulating evidence and facts. Here’s a tentative tally of indisputable facts:

-- Several people have testified that they feel intimidated here, don’t post for fear of being attacked. I know other examples. This is a result absolutely contrary to the express wishes of the NSF president.

-- The problem originates with a very few people, chiefly txmarinemom and pooka, who exasperate, badger, intimidate a large contingent of vocal and silent members, even though they may sometimes be appreciated by others.

-- The result is a board that is partly dysfunctional, and has been so for over a year. Some of people, number unknown, have disappeared because of it.

-- The problem is serious enough that the very president of the NSF has been subjected to obnoxious challenges by the primary offenders. The moderator states that she is disinclined to intervene.

On the basis of these facts, any reasonable person would conclude that something needs to be done. More FACTS:

-- The only person aside from the president who can correct the problem is the moderator.

-- The moderator is doing nothing visible to correct the problem. In the post directly above she implies that the problem is only mine and that I should leave to solve it. It is not only my problem -- it affects dozens at least.

-- The moderator *has* intervened recently in cases where she regards Ballet Mom or mamamax – both of them pursuing conservative treatment -- as stepping over the line. This gives the impression of favoritism.

-- The moderator has publicly defined her job as she sees it:

--This job definition is found nowhere in the NSF forum guidelines. http://www.scoliosis.org/forum.php The guidelines imply instead that the individual should use his/her own judgment to separate wheat from chaff. Nowhere do the guidelines declare that this forum will permit only proven facts to be stated in a post.

CONCLUSIONS
-- A focus on their concept of "proven facts" or "evidence" and strong support for surgeons and surgery appears to be an obsession with pooka and the moderator. They summarily dismiss any possibility that exercise therapy could work, which is the party line of the SRS, an organization primarily focused on surgery.

-- I conclude that the moderator is either unconcerned about maintaining the atmosphere specifically defined by the NSF and its president, or she is passively or actively encouraging her allies to pester members in the non-surgical section because it advances an agenda of disparaging conservative treatments. If that seems unfair, please prove my conclusions untrue by doing something constructive about the underlying problem, not just shooing complainers away.

-- I finally conclude that probably nothing will improve until we have another moderator to supplement or replace the current moderator, because Linda’s concept of the job is not the same as the NSF guidelines’ concept of the job, evidenced by both performance history and her own public statements.

Writer - it could not have been said better. Thank you for being our advocate. Your observations of what really goes on here, in our house divided - is both accurate and truthful. Not everyone will want to face the truth - and they will offer grandstanded if not bombastic protest of it. While those who have been abusive to others may apologize, like most who follow an abusive pattern, the actions will resurface and repeat (regardless of how the victim responds). I fear the natural law of history repeating itself may not find immunity in this forum.

And for those who do not like abusive behavior - they will be offered directions to the exit sign or offered an iconic triangle to click. I have clicked that triangle - and been dubbed by the moderator - a complainer.

How interesting and somewhat sad, given the purpose of this forum - which was designed with a dual purpose to provide support for patients and families in the decisions they make towards treatments of their choice (surgical or non-surgical). Choice being, the operative word. As long as we have "moderation" that is biased towards only one treatment, those who choose another will have a difficult time sharing information among themselves. I will not go into the endless list of examples - those who try to participate in the non surgical forum, know them well.

There are no such abusive examples in the surgical forums - and that makes it obvious that the forum is one sided (through moderation's leadership). At this point, I imagine the moderator is about to offer me directions to the exit sign. I respectfully decline in the perhaps misguided hopes of once again requesting that the non surgical forum be given the same freedom as the surgical forum so that both may enjoy the freedom to exchange information among themselves regarding their choice of treatment. This is what the forum was designed to do - and I do not believe that it is too much to expect.

~ yours truly, the only active adult Spinecor patient to remain amid the hostility.

[mamamax]

This is the second time I'm writing this, as it appears that my post did not actually post....argh....so here's another version of what I tried to post earlier.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I cannot change anyone. I can only change the way I respond. I could never "win" an arguement with a person who is hostile, arrogant, and has a rabid desire to be right all the time.

In fact, trying to argue with such a person literally feeds his or her need to be superior. Continuing to respond to that person actually gives the aggressor permission to continue. It is, in fact, positive reinforcement.

I suggest a technique that I, and perhaps you, have found useful when training dogs or children:

Reward good behaviour (informative, thoughtful posts or constructive critique delivered with respect) with "thank you for your input, you helped me understand that better"

Do not reward bad behaviour (insults to your intelligence or beliefs, suggestions that you don't want to know facts) with a response at all. Or reply once alone to inform the person that you will not be drawn into a fruitless arguement.

If you do not reply, the aggressor will have no one to talk to, and will lose his or her power. (and really, is there not more to life than being the alpha dog of a web forum?). Take back your power folks, by changing your strategies to get the outcome - a useful non-surgical forum - you desire.

Betty ~

Agree with Writer, this is excellent advice. Reminds me of a recent campaign slogan - yes we can :-) with The Audacity of Hope - let us give this a try.

[LindaRacine]

I think we have to remember that Linda is a volunteer. Even if she was paid, it's hard to imagine it would ever be enough to deal with this forum.

Folks should step up to the plate and take control of what they read instead of trying to take control of what others write. If everyone did that then we wouldn't need a moderator.

Paid? LOL!

[betty14]

Betty ~

Agree with Writer, this is excellent advice. Reminds me of a recent campaign slogan - yes we can :-) with The Audacity of Hope - let us give this a try.


Thanks for the support. I hope that people will also FOLLOW the advice, which won't be easy!

[mamamax]

Thanks for the support. I hope that people will also FOLLOW the advice, which won't be easy!

You are welcome. You have been a delightful and informative addition here Betty.

You know that old adage of course - you can lead a horse to water but ...

I for one am thirsty and will drink!

Best2U!

[LindaRacine]

I just looked at a bunch of threads to come up with some examples of my not being biased:

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=912&postcount=3
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=42638&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=43168&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=44667&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=44790&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=57379&postcount=3
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=60103&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=65785&postcount=1
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=63230&postcount=7
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8080
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=70763&postcount=6
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=79333&postcount=19

I have ALWAYS said that alternative treatments may be helpful. The only problem I have with alternatives, is when people make false claims. I would LOVE to find out that an alternative treatment can keep surgical candidates from having surgery. Believe me when I say that I'd have the same problem if a surgeon came here and started making false claims.

And, here's some evidence of my trying to give an alternative practitioner a platform to spread the word. This thread contains a conversation I had with a Clear Treatment chiropractor. I convinced her to treat a patient for free if there was no long-term improvement from treatment. We found the patient, and I got a surgeon to agree to follow the patient during treatment. After it was all set up, the chiropractor stopped communicating with me.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3452

Edit: Darn, that isn't the thread. If anyone can find the proper thread, please post a link. However, while I was rereading that thread, I noticed this post:

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=32549&postcount=28

[mamamax]

Thanks for the support. I hope that people will also FOLLOW the advice, which won't be easy!

You are right Betty .. It won't be easy. Meant to say that earlier and forgot.

[Pooka1]

I just looked at a bunch of threads to come up with some examples of my not being biased:

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=912&postcount=3
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=42638&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=43168&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=44667&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=44790&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=57379&postcount=3
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=60103&postcount=2
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=65785&postcount=1
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=63230&postcount=7
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8080
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=70763&postcount=6
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showpost.php?p=79333&postcount=19

I have ALWAYS said that alternative treatments may be helpful. The only problem I have with alternatives, is when people make false claims. I would LOVE to find out that an alternative treatment can keep surgical candidates from having surgery. Believe me when I say that I'd have the same problem if a surgeon came here and started making false claims.

The only way I can understand the claims of bias against you is your insistence on not letting anyone use the forum to make a false, misleading, or unsupported claim. Folks seem to interpret that goal as being against alternative treatments per se when clearly you are not against alternative treatments for pain and such as shown by that subset of your posts.

If that is wrong then I have no idea why some folks think you are biased. It is correct to be biased against false, misleading, and unsupported medical claims. It's why we need Quackwatch, which, I assume some here think is completely unnecessary.


And, here's some evidence of my trying to give an alternative practitioner a platform to spread the word. This thread contains a conversation I had with a Clear Treatment chiropractor. I convinced her to treat a patient for free if there was no long-term improvement from treatment. We found the patient, and I got a surgeon to agree to follow the patient during treatment. After it was all set up, the chiropractor stopped communicating with me.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3452

Probably too caught up in a vicious cycle of asymmetric loading of subluxations. ;)

[Pooka1]

Paid? LOL!

:D No I know you aren't paid.

I just wish folks/adults wouldn't constantly rely on you to be their net nanny when you are doing this in your free time. It's not like it seems enjoyable.

[betty14]

I have ALWAYS said that alternative treatments may be helpful. The only problem I have with alternatives, is when people make false claims. I would LOVE to find out that an alternative treatment can keep surgical candidates from having surgery.



Hi Linda:

I do believe that you are sincere in what you say above.

I'm sure you know already that a lot of people posting on this part of the forum will likely never be surgical candidates (like myself - curves not "bad enough" to qualify). We would like to talk about what we're doing to treat our conditions and improve our quality of life.

There is also a percentage of people who would want to avoid surgery, and are willing to put some time, effort and money into trying, and who are intelligent enough to thoroughly look into their options.

Many other people are told they are just shy of the threshold for surgery; they should "wait and see". They also deserve a place to look for answers.

Most of these people ALREADY KNOW that the evidence base for certain treatments is not conclusive, and are not gullible enough to fall for just anything. Yet sometimes they are treated as if they are very stupid people indeed, by a small number of people.

I will encourage everyone to please not "take the bait" the next time you find yourself recieving a nasty reply to one of your posts.

Well, that's my last post on this thread. Anyone like to join me?

B.

[Pooka1]

Sharon, et. al...

Discussion of beliefs is now banned, and all posts that discuss the topic have been/will be removed if found.

--Linda

ALL posts. Very good. Not relevant.

[LindaRacine]

Hi Linda:

I do believe that you are sincere in what you say above.

I'm sure you know already that a lot of people posting on this part of the forum will likely never be surgical candidates (like myself - curves not "bad enough" to qualify). We would like to talk about what we're doing to treat our conditions and improve our quality of life.

There is also a percentage of people who would want to avoid surgery, and are willing to put some time, effort and money into trying, and who are intelligent enough to thoroughly look into their options.

Many other people are told they are just shy of the threshold for surgery; they should "wait and see". They also deserve a place to look for answers.


B.

Hi Betty...

Absolutely! And, I've always been a proponent of alternative treatments for non-surgical curves in adults. I went to a chiropractor 3 times a week for a year before even seeing a surgeon. During that time, I also tried physical therapy and acupuncture. I've said many times that I wished I had found my [current] physical therapist before my surgery instead of afterward. If I could have avoided the extreme pain I had, I would not have had surgery when I did.

In non-skeletally mature individuals who don't fall into the treatment window (25 degrees or more), I'm fine with alternative treatments, as long as I don't have to pay for them. Just as surgeons have to prove the effectiveness of procedures in order to be reimbursed, alternative practitioners should have to prove the effectiveness of their treatments. If they can't be proved, than it should be up to the individual to pay for them.

Regards,
Linda

[MissEmmyF]

I have ALWAYS said that alternative treatments may be helpful. The only problem I have with alternatives, is when people make false claims. I would LOVE to find out that an alternative treatment can keep surgical candidates from having surgery.

Like Betty said, I also believe this to be true Linda. My whole issue is that I don't think many people on here are making false claims about being able to permanently reduce a curve by non surgical methods, etc. I think most people on here are pretty much on the same page and realistic about whichever non surgical option they may choose. So, even though this seems to be the case to me, there are STILL repeatedly heated debates...for no real reason.

[scooter950]

Interestingly, though, in this discussion we are accumulating evidence and facts. Here’s a tentative tally of indisputable facts:

-- Several people have testified that they feel intimidated here, don’t post for fear of being attacked. I know other examples. This is a result absolutely contrary to the express wishes of the NSF president.

-- The problem originates with a very few people, chiefly txmarinemom and pooka, who exasperate, badger, intimidate a large contingent of vocal and silent members, even though they may sometimes be appreciated by others.

-- The result is a board that is partly dysfunctional, and has been so for over a year. Some of people, number unknown, have disappeared because of it.

-- The problem is serious enough that the very president of the NSF has been subjected to obnoxious challenges by the primary offenders. The moderator states that she is disinclined to intervene.


Hello to all, I am writing to add my voice to the numbers of members who no longer post/ no longer read this forum on a daily basis, like I used to. I was so excited when I found this forum, to finally meet other people who suffer from pain and disabilty, whose lives have spiraled inward to a rest and work cycle that severly limited social interaction/ or any serious activities.

I have become somewhat of a recluse, because of the pain.

But I totally agree with Writer, there have been SO MANY posts that are rude, that lack any charity or kindness, posts that attack the person- not the idea; I cringe when I read these posts and I shrink back into my lurker status. Why, you ask? why don't I just reply? #1- the main reason: I don't have the time or the energy. I don't even have time or energy to fix my hair - let alone engage in a heated and convoluted online argument with hostile posters!!!

When I am in such pain I can no longer walk or stand, I try to rest and grab the laptop... only to find beligerence and personal criticisms on this forum.

I also have formed the opinion that Linda Racine plays favorites- that certain members jump at any opportunity to belittle certain opinions/ beliefs about scoliosis. And as for the banning of religion...?!!?! I am incredulous! can I no longer say "I will pray for you" when someone is having surgery, or having a rough recovery? Let's be adults! If you don't want to read my posts, then skip it. I post seldom enough, no hardship for missing any! But why the ban ?

<sigh> Is it so difficult to be kind? we are all in pain, we are all deformed, and looking for answers. Can't we support one another instead of tearing each other down? praying for peace, jamie

[LindaRacine]

You can ignore my posts, or the posts of anyone else, by adding that individual to your ignore list.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

[mamamax]

Hello to all, I am writing to add my voice to the numbers of members who no longer post/ no longer read this forum on a daily basis, like I used to. I was so excited when I found this forum, to finally meet other people who suffer from pain and disabilty, whose lives have spiraled inward to a rest and work cycle that severly limited social interaction/ or any serious activities.

I have become somewhat of a recluse, because of the pain.

But I totally agree with Writer, there have been SO MANY posts that are rude, that lack any charity or kindness, posts that attack the person- not the idea; I cringe when I read these posts and I shrink back into my lurker status. Why, you ask? why don't I just reply? #1- the main reason: I don't have the time or the energy. I don't even have time or energy to fix my hair - let alone engage in a heated and convoluted online argument with hostile posters!!!

When I am in such pain I can no longer walk or stand, I try to rest and grab the laptop... only to find beligerence and personal criticisms on this forum.

I also have formed the opinion that Linda Racine plays favorites- that certain members jump at any opportunity to belittle certain opinions/ beliefs about scoliosis. And as for the banning of religion...?!!?! I am incredulous! can I no longer say "I will pray for you" when someone is having surgery, or having a rough recovery? Let's be adults! If you don't want to read my posts, then skip it. I post seldom enough, no hardship for missing any! But why the ban ?

<sigh> Is it so difficult to be kind? we are all in pain, we are all deformed, and looking for answers. Can't we support one another instead of tearing each other down? praying for peace, jamie

Thank you for speaking up Scooter. God Bless you. The banning of faith which plays an important part in our lives is as you say - incredulous. That is a fact.

[Writer]

You can ignore my posts, or the posts of anyone else, by adding that individual to your ignore list.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist


I'm afraid that this response completely misses the point. It's actually quite astonishing, this unwillingness to recognize the seriousness of the overall issue. I think "insensitive" is an accurate description.

I stand by my analyses above and am gratified to see them validated by people I don't know.

[Pooka1]

Let's be adults! If you don't want to read my posts, then skip it.

Though I have been saying the same thing, several people are on record as not wanting to do this.

Think.

Think.

Think.

For yourself.

[Qikdraw]

I'm afraid that this response completely misses the point. It's actually quite astonishing, this unwillingness to recognize the seriousness of the overall issue. I think "insensitive" is an accurate description.

I stand by my analyses above and am gratified to see them validated by people I don't know.

What I find most disturbing is the blatant hypocracy put out by some people who say they want an end to discord on the forums. You want calm on these forums? Stop posting threads that attack other posters, cause that is all this entire thread is, just a direct attack on posters you don't like, and all you're doing is trying to sow discord and get people behind you.

You want calm and peace on these boards? Stop posting crap like this.

THIS crap is why I don't come here as often, its not the ones Writer is complaining about, its Writer and those with him in attacking other posters, all the while claiming they are against such things. :mad:

[mamamax]

What I find most disturbing is the blatant hypocracy put out by some people who say they want an end to discord on the forums. You want calm on these forums? Stop posting threads that attack other posters, cause that is all this entire thread is, just a direct attack on posters you don't like, and all you're doing is trying to sow discord and get people behind you.

You want calm and peace on these boards? Stop posting crap like this.

THIS crap is why I don't come here as often, its not the ones Writer is complaining about, its Writer and those with him in attacking other posters, all the while claiming they are against such things. :mad:

QD ~ Firstly, Happy 4th of July!

Agree with you - there is much to be disturbed about. And like you ... i would much like to find peace in the non-surgical section. There is a problem however, in this section. Writer addresses it head on. And others like Writer who have been long disturbed by the problem that exists - have lent their voices to acknowledge that a serious problem, does in fact, exist. Not a pretty sight i'll admit. But something has to be done about the problem and ignoring it, or clicking little triangles - will not make it go away.

The problem is this: There is enough continued and open disrespect for people in the non-surgical section that those who would like to peacefully participate on this board - find that they must openly confront it in the hopes of effecting change. Ignoring it like i said, will not make it go away. This problem does not exist on the surgical boards - and it should not exist here. The only alternative the non-surgical folks have is - to not participate in a board created for them - with the purpose of being just as helpful to them, as the surgical section is to others.

This thread was started because of the open disrespect for Joseph O'Brien. Many disrespectful things have been said about him, bringing many things about him into question - his faith, his character, his abilities, and his direction. Given who and what Joseph O'Brien really is - this has just been too much for many of us to bear, and Writer has spoken up about it .. many others have voiced their agreement. The disrespect shown to Joe - is a mirror of what others have experienced in trying to peacefully participate on the non-surgical board. And QD, I'll just bet that if these accusations against Joe had happened over on the surgical board - that you would have been one of the first to speak out against it.

It seems as though the non-surgical boards have become a form of entertainment for a select few who believe it is a place to debate rather than share (compare this board to the surgical section and see if this does not ring true). Does debate belong in the non surgical section? I think not - no more that it belongs over in the surgical section. Perhaps debate deserves its own little section - but certainly not among those seeking or engaging in current treatment - surgical or non surgical. And the debate that occurs here in the non-surgical board, is more tool to hijack and confuse a thread than it is sincere desire to help others engaged in non surgical treatment. If what goes on here - went on in the surgical section ... how many would sit passively by and endure it without comment? Few i suspect.

Fair and equitable treatment is all that is being asked for. That should not be too much to expect. Up-thread, there is a post from Jamie (Scooter950) that has been weighing heavy on my mind. How many more are there that no longer participate on the non-surgical board because it quite simply is too difficult amid the disrespect .. making the attempt truly counterproductive to any current non surgical treatment option one may be engaged in. Jamie, if you are reading this - i hope the most recent threads started by Betty14 will prove problem free, and that you will feel safe to contribute there.

A doctor i saw this week said to me (before even exchanging a greeting) ... Are you still abusing yourself by trying to participate at NSF?

Something needs to be done.

Have a Happy and Safe 4th of July weekend everyone!

[Pooka1]

Thank you for speaking up Scooter. God Bless you. The banning of faith which plays an important part in our lives is as you say - incredulous. That is a fact.


Linda will correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt she meant banning people saying prayers for folks or asking that others pray for their kid.

There is nothing wrong with that.

Faith is certainly important to a lot of people and this forum is too small as it is. I hope folks don't think what you wrote because I do think more would leave if they thought that.

I assume Linda meant banning everything else beyond saying prayers.

Faith, as opposed to evidence, is not relevant to a serious subject like scoliosis research or treatment. And I certainly hope comments about dead scientists who can't defend them self are banned.

[scooter950]

You can ignore my posts, or the posts of anyone else, by adding that individual to your ignore list.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist

Hi again, linda- why would I want to ignore the moderator? I think your posts would be exempt from this "ignore" list- shouldn't that be one of the rules? how can you moderate the discussion if I am able to ignore your posts? just wondering... no offense intended. Moderating is a difficult job, I couldn't do it. Jamie

[LindaRacine]

Hi again, linda- why would I want to ignore the moderator? I think your posts would be exempt from this "ignore" list- shouldn't that be one of the rules? how can you moderate the discussion if I am able to ignore your posts? just wondering... no offense intended. Moderating is a difficult job, I couldn't do it. Jamie
When I use my moderating powers (hey, I'm a super hero ;-), you'll see deleted posts with a comment regarding the reason for deletion. When I post as myself, I am not a moderator.

--Linda

[Qikdraw]

QD ~ Firstly, Happy 4th of July!

To you as well! And a belated Happy 1st of July! (Canada Day, I am Canadian after all, even if I am currently living in the US :D)


Agree with you - there is much to be disturbed about. And like you ... i would much like to find peace in the non-surgical section. There is a problem however, in this section. Writer addresses it head on. And others like Writer who have been long disturbed by the problem that exists - have lent their voices to acknowledge that a serious problem, does in fact, exist. Not a pretty sight i'll admit. But something has to be done about the problem and ignoring it, or clicking little triangles - will not make it go away.

There is a way to deal with it and that is to report it to Linda, and if you do not feel she is doing the job then PM Joe and ask him to step in. Starting up a thread to directly attack those Writer disagrees with only makes the problem worse, not better. Lines are now drawn in teh sand and the bickering is getting worse, not better.


The problem is this: There is enough continued and open disrespect for people in the non-surgical section that those who would like to peacefully participate on this board - find that they must openly confront it in the hopes of effecting change. Ignoring it like i said, will not make it go away. This problem does not exist on the surgical boards - and it should not exist here. The only alternative the non-surgical folks have is - to not participate in a board created for them - with the purpose of being just as helpful to them, as the surgical section is to others.

Who is doing the disrespect? Sharon for wanting proof of proceedure's validity, or Writer for calling people who dare ask such questions 'brownshirts' (Nazis)? Look at it from both sides equally.


This thread was started because of the open disrespect for Joseph O'Brien. Many disrespectful things have been said about him, bringing many things about him into question - his faith, his character, his abilities, and his direction. Given who and what Joseph O'Brien really is - this has just been too much for many of us to bear, and Writer has spoken up about it .. many others have voiced their agreement. The disrespect shown to Joe - is a mirror of what others have experienced in trying to peacefully participate on the non-surgical board. And QD, I'll just bet that if these accusations against Joe had happened over on the surgical board - that you would have been one of the first to speak out against it.

Joe is an adult, and if I am not mistaken he was answering those charges himself. He doesn't need others to speak for him. This thread was nothing more than [i]another[i] attemp by Writer to get rid of people he has disagreed with for years. All he is doing now is trying to get others to help him stage a revolt.
And no I would not speak out about something like that. At best I would have reported it to Linda, and then Joe if needed. Joe does not need my help to defend himself.
Plus, some peole are just not going to believe anything put to them, and its no sense starting more and more arguements with them about it. If Sharon and Pam want to believe whatever they want to about Joe, true or not, how does that effect me? It doesn't. I'll let Joe address those issues and I'll just go about my own business in encouraging other people in their struggles and asking questions as I feel the need to.


It seems as though the non-surgical boards have become a form of entertainment for a select few who believe it is a place to debate rather than share (compare this board to the surgical section and see if this does not ring true). Does debate belong in the non surgical section? I think not - no more that it belongs over in the surgical section. Perhaps debate deserves its own little section - but certainly not among those seeking or engaging in current treatment - surgical or non surgical. And the debate that occurs here in the non-surgical board, is more tool to hijack and confuse a thread than it is sincere desire to help others engaged in non surgical treatment. If what goes on here - went on in the surgical section ... how many would sit passively by and endure it without comment? Few i suspect.

If a surgeon, or people pushing surgery, came into the surgical section and said that surgery is needed for every scoliosis patient you can guarentee that there would be debate on that subject.
The problem on the alternative treatments is that there seems to be no long term studies done. That leaves a lot of questions about the validity of some of it. However I have yet to see anyone discourage trying it and if it helps then great. The only question has been about the long term effects and will it stand up to time?
Look at my preop xray in my sig lines and tell me if alternative treatments would have helped me. I had a chiropracter say he could have fixed me, and that I would not have needed surgery at all. Its that kind of stuff we have to watch out for as it is very dangerous, I am sure you can see that. Its the same thing with other forms of alternative treatments, some people have made wild claims and we do need to keep an eye on that so that people don't get mislead into false hopes. (in both surgery and alt treatments)


Fair and equitable treatment is all that is being asked for. That should not be too much to expect. Up-thread, there is a post from Jamie (Scooter950) that has been weighing heavy on my mind. How many more are there that no longer participate on the non-surgical board because it quite simply is too difficult amid the disrespect .. making the attempt truly counterproductive to any current non surgical treatment option one may be engaged in.

Fair and equitable treatment goes both ways, and those on Writers side need to show the same respect back. But as I have said earlier Writer has been guilty of personal attacks and that shows he has no respect either. Which is why there is the hypocracy in what he says he wants now. If you want fairness you don't start threads attacking other posters. If someone is disrespecful to you, stay respectful back, its that easy.
Remember just because someone disagrees with something doesn't mean its disrespect. If so I guess we are all guilty. :eek:


Something needs to be done.

I agree, but Linda and Joe are the ones to handle it.


Have a Happy and Safe 4th of July weekend everyone!


You too! I'm staying home with my dogs cause they get scared by fireworks. My mother-in-law is taking a grandson to a bbq then fireworks. :)

[Qikdraw]

When I use my moderating powers (hey, I'm a super hero ;-), you'll see deleted posts with a comment regarding the reason for deletion. When I post as myself, I am not a moderator.

--Linda

Linda,

I do not envy you your position here. I am an admin on one site and a mod on another site, neither have the arguements we have here. :p
The only problem we have on one site is bots posting porn. :eek: Its good we don't have that problem here. :D

[Pooka1]

The only problem we have on one site is bots posting porn. :eek: Its good we don't have that problem here. :D

That might eventually drive me away. I get scared just seeing the screen names that folks try to register here. I'm so glad none of them slip through the registration when there are kids on this forum. :eek:

[mamamax]

Happy 4th of July Everyone :-)

[Ballet Mom]

Happy 4th of July Everyone :-)

Happy Independence Day to you too, Mamamax :)

Lest we forget, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”

John Hancock, et al.
July 4, 1776

[LindaRacine]

Thanks for the support Brad. I've always known you were a stand up guy, but staying home with the scared dog proves it unequivocally. :) Happy 4th.

--Linda

[mamamax]

Happy Independence Day to you too, Mamamax :)

Lest we forget, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

“And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.”

John Hancock, et al.
July 4, 1776

Thanks Ballet Mom! Some may enjoy this too:

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated, but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed,
and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.

What price Freedom (anywhere) eh? I have not checked out the accuracy of all this - was sent to me by a reliable source .. maybe our history buffs can let us know.

[Ballet Mom]

A truly huge sacrifice for these Founding Fathers. A sacrifice not to be taken lightly.


Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.



It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt.—John Philpot Curran

Best to all!

[mamamax]

To you as well! And a belated Happy 1st of July! (Canada Day, I am Canadian after all, even if I am currently living in the US :D)



There is a way to deal with it and that is to report it to Linda, and if you do not feel she is doing the job then PM Joe and ask him to step in. Starting up a thread to directly attack those Writer disagrees with only makes the problem worse, not better. Lines are now drawn in teh sand and the bickering is getting worse, not better.



Who is doing the disrespect? Sharon for wanting proof of proceedure's validity, or Writer for calling people who dare ask such questions 'brownshirts' (Nazis)? Look at it from both sides equally.



Joe is an adult, and if I am not mistaken he was answering those charges himself. He doesn't need others to speak for him. This thread was nothing more than [i]another[i] attemp by Writer to get rid of people he has disagreed with for years. All he is doing now is trying to get others to help him stage a revolt.
And no I would not speak out about something like that. At best I would have reported it to Linda, and then Joe if needed. Joe does not need my help to defend himself.
Plus, some peole are just not going to believe anything put to them, and its no sense starting more and more arguements with them about it. If Sharon and Pam want to believe whatever they want to about Joe, true or not, how does that effect me? It doesn't. I'll let Joe address those issues and I'll just go about my own business in encouraging other people in their struggles and asking questions as I feel the need to.



If a surgeon, or people pushing surgery, came into the surgical section and said that surgery is needed for every scoliosis patient you can guarentee that there would be debate on that subject.
The problem on the alternative treatments is that there seems to be no long term studies done. That leaves a lot of questions about the validity of some of it. However I have yet to see anyone discourage trying it and if it helps then great. The only question has been about the long term effects and will it stand up to time?
Look at my preop xray in my sig lines and tell me if alternative treatments would have helped me. I had a chiropracter say he could have fixed me, and that I would not have needed surgery at all. Its that kind of stuff we have to watch out for as it is very dangerous, I am sure you can see that. Its the same thing with other forms of alternative treatments, some people have made wild claims and we do need to keep an eye on that so that people don't get mislead into false hopes. (in both surgery and alt treatments)



Fair and equitable treatment goes both ways, and those on Writers side need to show the same respect back. But as I have said earlier Writer has been guilty of personal attacks and that shows he has no respect either. Which is why there is the hypocracy in what he says he wants now. If you want fairness you don't start threads attacking other posters. If someone is disrespecful to you, stay respectful back, its that easy.
Remember just because someone disagrees with something doesn't mean its disrespect. If so I guess we are all guilty. :eek:



I agree, but Linda and Joe are the ones to handle it.



You too! I'm staying home with my dogs cause they get scared by fireworks. My mother-in-law is taking a grandson to a bbq then fireworks. :)

Well we disagree on the Writer (and perhaps a few other things). I do have enormous respect for Writer and both understand and admire what it is that he hopes to accomplish. But you see how we (you and me) disagree QD? Politely. That is the way ;-) And for what it may be worth, I think clearing the air may have been a very good thing - for everyone. Thank you.

[Lorraine 1966]

I just read the posts regarding your independence day, and part of one line by Ballet Mom caught my eye. "Lest we forget"
We here in Australia also have a day we call Anzac Day which is in April and those words every year since World war 1, have been uttered in reference to our day of thanks to our soldiers who died for us, for peace and democracy.
I cant help but think that all the way here, we are and you over there how alike we really are, and how absolutely wonderful that those words, signify both our thoughts on two of our very special days.

I really feel it brings us all together and has really touched me, Happy Independence Day to you all.

Lorraine.

[mamamax]

posts by pooka1:

"He seems to be a man of faith, not evidence. … Faith in conservative treatments as against evidence for non-fusion (and possibly fusion) surgery. … I suggest that is no way to approach a serious medical issue (if that is indeed his approach)." Post #241

"I was right. He's a man of faith, not evidence. … He's a man of faith AS AGAINST evidence. … Science is a way of knowing. Faith is a way of pretending to know." Post #250

"What isn't ridiculous to suggest is that what gets linked to is simply where O'Brien's hopes and interests lie, as opposed to where the evidence leads. His site, his prerogative I suppose but that is not really being true to what facts are or are not out there." Post #256
++++++++++++++++++++++

In the thread "Setting the Record Straight", which NSF President and CEO Joe O’Brien started as a response to accusations against him on this board, the President outlined the purposes of this forum.

Item 10: "this Forum is intended to be a community center to give all patients and families an opportunity to give and receive vital information and support."

and -- "we need open communication for all in an environment that shows courtesy and respect for, and by, everyone."

Item 11: "Anyone unwilling or unable to abide by the spirit of item #10 is kindly asked to leave the Forum and find another venue to satisfy your needs."

Bizarrely, that very thread has been hijacked and has degenerated into a vehicle for yet more accusations against Joe. Most recently in the form of pooka's "Faith versus evidence" campaign, an insult to the intellect and character of the President.

I invite readers unfamiliar with Joe O’Brien’s deep and broad background in all kinds of scoliosis treatment, and his personal familiarity with the top practitioners worldwide, surgical and conservative, to read post #1 in the thread "Setting the Record Straight." He almost certainly knows more about more kinds of scoliosis treatment than *anybody* on this board.

The proposition that he is promoting or discouraging any kind of treatment out of ignorance or blind faith is preposterous.

Q: Why doesn't he chime in and defend himself? Answer: I'm sure that the organization’s president has more important demands on his time than to constantly comment on petty accusations and get involved in squabbles of the nature that have become all-too-common here. I would expect a moderator to do the defense for him and clamp down on the offenders.

Linda, I request -- again -- that you control the very few people who are consistently out of control, disrupting discussions and alienating many participants with sarcastic or wild remarks, taking over threads, including now the President’s thread, and casting aspersions upon the President himself.

The NSF Forum deteriorated noticeably after the appearance of tx and pooka around the beginning of 2008. You appear mostly to side with them, and never attempt to tone them down, in my observation. No thread in the Non-Surgical area is safe from their abrasive pontifications – yet they are not even interested in non-surgical treatments except insistently to disparage them. Now pooka is essentially attacking the President, as if she understands better than he how to manage the NSF.

Only the moderator can maintain the environment that Joe has defined. The rest of us are hostages. Please enforce the principles that Joe defined above. Thank you.

This was a great thread Writer ... it address issues which continue to this day. I miss you here - and many others in this thread who no longer post for the reasons stated.

[Pooka1]

In the past few days we have seen people afraid of mere individual words if you can believe it.

What is being discussed are mere ideas. No idea should be walled off from criticism. Open-ended conversation is the only way to learn anything and advance. Dogma is the way to war because no criticism or discussion is permitted and that is all that can remain if conversation ceases.

Don't be afraid of words or ideas. Be honest.

[mamamax]

In the past few days we have seen people afraid of mere individual words if you can believe it.

I don't think people are afraid of words. I think they tire of controversy in an area that is supposed to be safe for them to discuss non surgical methods without humiliation.


What is being discussed are mere ideas. No idea should be walled off from criticism. Open-ended conversation is the only way to learn anything and advance. Dogma is the way to war because no criticism or discussion is permitted and that is all that can remain if conversation ceases.

Humiliation is not open minded discussion - quite the opposite.




Don't be afraid of words or ideas. Be honest.

Good advice. You may be preaching to the choir. Many who participated in this thread were quite honest - and none of them afraid of words or ideas. And many of them no longer post - because, opened ended conversation free of humiliation was (and often is) futile in the non surgical forum.

[Pooka1]

We have a grown woman afraid of the word "damn." How likely is it that she can go on to discuss things logically and honestly?

[mamamax]

We have a grown woman afraid of the word "damn." How likely is it that she can go on to discuss things logically and honestly?

The grown woman isn't me - so I can't really speak for her. But, I can say this - I didn't see any fear in her comment ... I noted, that she noted the word may be used liberally while other words are forbidden - unless you use them of course :rolleyes:

[Pooka1]

The grown woman isn't me - so I can't really speak for her. But, I can say this - I didn't see any fear in her comment ... I noted, that she noted the word may be used liberally while other words are forbidden - unless you use them of course :rolleyes:

Why would she care if the word was used liberally or not if she didn't fear blasphemy? I don't fear the word because I think blasphemy is a victimless crime. She obviously disagrees and is afraid because of it.

This is how beliefs affect actions.

[Pooka1]

while other words are forbidden - unless you use them of course

This forum is about a SERIOUS MEDICAL ISSUE. If you think scientific research isn't going to provide the solution then you should try that faith healing site.

[LindaRacine]

I'm closing this thread. And, I will continue to close threads as you hijack them. Mamamax, you seem to thrive on drama. Get over it. And, Sharon, the next time you find Mamamax getting off track, simply report the post(s) and I'll either delete them and/or close the thread. We're all getting a little sick of it.