Non-Surgical Scoliosis Forum

[MissEmmyF]

Many of you may already know about this forum, but I just recently found out about and joined, so I figured I'd pass the word on. Here is the link for anyone who is interested:

http://www.fixscoliosis.com/forum/index.php

[LindaRacine]

And, since it appears they aren't approving membership for anyone who might want to debate some of the really ridiculous statements I've seen there, those who want to blindly believe everything they hear, will be very happy there.

--Linda

[Pooka1]

You know, it really saddened me to read FixScoliosis's forum.

His posts here are almost uniformly rational and reasonable. I had thought he was on top of the literature.

But going over there, I see rampant misinformation and "blind leading the blind leading the naked" type posts. :)

An example is the "Emily Litella" post I pointed out. It was crystal clear that ALL the folks involved in that thread thought 15% of all rods going in NOW using ALL approaches TODAY break. They clearly had no idea that was an old issue that was COMPLETELY resolved within an approach that only a vanishingly small number of surgeons are doing these days (though it is promising) that HAS NO BEARING on the BULK of surgeries being preformed now and in the past.

I was shocked that Fix would post it in such a misleading fashion and that he in fact mislead everyone there who posted. I still think he is one of the good guy chiros who are honest but I hope I'm not wrong about that. We'll see.

[MissEmmyF]

And, since it appears they aren't approving membership for anyone who might want to debate some of the really ridiculous statements I've seen there, those who want to blindly believe everything they hear, will be very happy there.

--Linda

What do you mean they aren't "approving" membership? I figured anyone who wanted to become a member could become a member...

[LindaRacine]

What do you mean they aren't "approving" membership? I figured anyone who wanted to become a member could become a member...

I never received the email with the verification code needed to complete the membership.

[MissEmmyF]

I never received the email with the verification code needed to complete the membership.

Hmmm, interesting...I guess it would be good to have other people try to become members then too to see if it happens to anyone else...

[LindaRacine]

Hmmm, interesting...I guess it would be good to have other people try to become members then too to see if it happens to anyone else...

Maybe Sharon can try, using her Pooka1 ID.

[Pooka1]

Maybe Sharon can try, using her Pooka1 ID.

Eh, I can try but not sure I have the stomach to post there.

[S4Sarah]

That fourm is AWESOME!!!
It is very very new so don't expect the amoutn of posts and members you do ehre for a bit.
I was like the 8th member to join! :)

[Pooka1]

That fourm is AWESOME!!!


Do you have some sense of the correctness of the information posted there? If not, how can you know if it is awesome or not? :confused:

My definition of awesome is a place where very knowledgeable people post a lot. Fix's site is too new to meet that criteria but is off to a less than stellar start. At a minimum, the blind leading the blind stuff should be nipped in the bud... maybe surgical issues shouldn't be discussed at all if nobody knows what the heck they are talking about as seems to be the case to date.

[S4Sarah]

It's a really nice site, the doctors who started it are really nice too, and knowledgable and cutting edge.

I don't know fi any of you ahve seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil, but even though it is about ALD the same things are happening with Scoliosis. As it is important to research and test treatments there is a such thing as over testing. In the movie Lorenzo's Oil Lorenzo Odone is dying from a genetic disorder called Adrenoleukodystrophy. When his parents are told there is nothing they can do about it except put him on a diet that doesn't help his parents are not one bit happy. They go out researching with scientists for a treatment and come up with Lorenzo's Oil. They give it to Lorenzo and it works (he ends up living to be an adult, usually boys diagnsoed with ALD live only a couple years passed their diagnosis) however when the parents go to an ALD conference people say "There is not enough research into this we can onyl listen to the scientists." These boys are dying from ALD, they can't wait!!!
People with Scoliosis can't wait either, some serious curves can cause serious problems and and curves in growing children can get much worse, some higher curves can even progress after growth! We can't keep relying on old treatments that may nto be the best. Treatments like Spinecor have actually been around since the late 1980's and early 1990's. There are many other treatments like CLEAR Institute, different methods, PT, special exercises, etc.
We need to research better treatments at a faster rate.

Doctors push surgery, in some rare cases like 100 degree curves it is sometimes the only option. Most cases however can be prevented from getting worse, and corrected without surgery. I like the fourm because I know from toher forms people get on with a 25 degree curve saying "I;m wearing a hard brace I'm afraid I'll ahve to get surgery" It is really discouraging for those people to ahve a thread right below saying "I'm getting surgery next week" I like Dr. Kalla's idea of another fourm. At first I was like "There are so many fourms for Scoliosis!" Then I relized how necessary it is to have a seperate non surgical fourm.

Dr. Kalla has some great views on Scoliosis treatment, he is very knowledgable and as I said above cutting edge. He posts some very interesting articles a lot of doctors probably never heard of.

Yeah it is very new and with all starting websites they need time to bloom. They all start out small and grow over the years.

[Pooka1]

(snip breathless posting)

I like Dr. Kalla's idea of another forum. At first I was like "There are so many forums for Scoliosis!" Then I realized how necessary it is to have a separate non surgical forum.

It is honest to have a forum to provide a location for the latest in alternative treatments for scoliosis. It is DIShonest to post ignorant irrelevant fallacious misrepresented comments about surgery in an effort to cover up the lack of evidence for alternative treatments. Do you see the difference?

A well-known group with a very ignorant idea of the age of the earth uses that tactic because they have no positive evidence for their claim. If you use that tactic in supporting alternative treatments, it is tantamount to admitting there is no positive evidence for them. Now is that what Fix's forum intends? I think not.


Dr. Kalla has some great views on Scoliosis treatment, he is very knowledgeable and as I said above cutting edge.

He may be knowledgeable about chiro (because he is a chiro not a surgeon) but he has proven he doesn't know the basics about surgery. He has no training in surgery so that is forgivable but then he shouldn't post misleading comments that make others ignorant also.


He posts some very interesting articles a lot of doctors probably never heard of.

Okay where is the Candid Camera? :eek:

If doctors never heard of the articles Fix likes then there is a very good reason. Can you guess what it is? HINT: It has nothing to do with Fix's supposed prowess in finding cutting edge articles.

[LindaRacine]

Sharon...

I think it's a lost cause. Maybe we should encourage it. :)

--Linda

[Pooka1]

Sharon...

I think it's a lost cause. Maybe we should encourage it. :)

--Linda

I don't know. Should we care if Fix's forum becomes a refuge for folks hiding from facts? I don't think we can stop it but I feel sorry for folks who are already afraid of surgery but may need it and then they go there and get the wits scared out of them for no reason using lies.

What can you say?

[betty14]

Hello Linda and Pooka1:

I just wanted to remind you that S4Sarah is a young girl in high school. Perhaps you could use your considerable knowledge to help her develop her critical thinking skills. If I was a young girl reading some of your cold and haughty responses to her enthusiastic, if slightly naive opinions, I'd be in tears. Give your good information, but be kind about it, please!

B.

[Pooka1]

Hello Linda and Pooka1:

I just wanted to remind you that S4Sarah is a young girl in high school. Perhaps you could use your considerable knowledge to help her develop her critical thinking skills. If I was a young girl reading some of your cold and haughty responses to her enthusiastic, if slightly naive opinions, I'd be in tears. Give your good information, but be kind about it, please!

B.

Look, I once tried to help a young girl here develop her critical thinking skills and it went nowhere. At first her mother pulled her off the forum and then the mother sent me a scarcely sane PM on the matter. The girl has since returned but it is pathetic to see her post now knowing what she is being told at home.

If you teach kids HOW to think you never have to tell them WHAT to think. Logic, the scientific method, intellectual honesty, etc. is the HOW. It all sorts itself out. If kids aren't taught at home from day one to think critically and skeptically then a few exchanges on a forum won't matter at all. Unfortunately. We have evidence.

[betty14]

If you teach kids HOW to think you never have to tell them WHAT to think. Logic, the scientific method, intellectual honesty, etc. is the HOW. It all sorts itself out. If kids aren't taught at home from day one to think critically and skeptically then a few exchanges on a forum won't matter at all. Unfortunately. We have evidence.

I do agree with your points, although I've got to ask - you have EVIDENCE of this? Do you keep up with the literature on child phychology and learning as well??? How do you have time to ride your horses?:D

Do you recall learning about the "art of rhetoric" in high school English class? To convince others to come over to your way of thinking, it won't work to communicate in a manner that makes people feel like idiots, which causes defensiveness, and therefore a reflexive desire NOT to be convinced. Note, I did not research that last sentence, I'm going purely by personal knowledge of human behavior. You'll catch more flies with honey and facts instead of vinegar and facts!

Cheers,
B.

[Pooka1]

Do you recall learning about the "art of rhetoric" in high school English class? To convince others to come over to your way of thinking, it won't work to communicate in a manner that makes people feel like idiots, which causes defensiveness, and therefore a reflexive desire NOT to be convinced. Note, I did not research that last sentence, I'm going purely by personal knowledge of human behavior. You'll catch more flies with honey and facts instead of vinegar and facts!


I see that point. But some things are immune to reason and ration.

There is evidence that accomodationism like I think you are advocating does not work to quash irrationality. For example, some in the scientific community have been trying to work with moderate religionists in a united front to explain to young earth creationists why their position is false. And guess what? The polling percentage of young earth creationists hasn't moved appreciably down in decades. And Dover was only 4 years ago. That's why some folks are trying a new approach to deal with them and it's calling a spade a spade.

It's worth a try there and here.

[S4Sarah]

Yeah I'm pretty young, but that doesn't mean my knowledge in big topics is lacking. I'm not crying, I'm not what you would call the average child. :) I have some very unique talents and interests. I can tell you about all sorts of medical things and Global warming and computers and much more. :)

I think that people are makign a big deal out of one phrase in a post. Phrases can be interperted in many ways and have many different meanings.
I think I saw that post but I can read them all, no one can there are sooooooo many! :eek:

Personally I don't agree with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways. Try alternative treatments first. There are so amny risks in surgery, (although it can be beneficial I'm not saying it's not) just to prepare for surgery is a task, some people go to see a Psychologist or couselour just to emotionally prepare for it. It is also very expensive and although treatments are improving there still are risks for infection, nerve damage, and many other complications. If it can be avoided it should be.

I hope I didn't upset you or anything Pooka1, I think that Dr. Kalla's fourm is a good idea and it will benefit lots of people.

[Pooka1]

Yeah I'm pretty young, but that doesn't mean my knowledge in big topics is lacking. I'm not crying, I'm not what you would call the average child. :) I have some very unique talents and interests. I can tell you about all sorts of medical things and Global warming and computers and much more. :)

That's good to hear. It's important to educate yourself beyond your education at school. I'm glad you are doing that. Hopefully you are also thinking for yourself and rejecting dogma since you certainly sound capable of it.

(snip)


Personally I don't agree with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways.

Nobody agrees with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways. There is total agreement on that point. That has never been on the table.

The thing on the table is if there are alternative treatments that are effective or not. And that question can only be answered by evidence, not wishful thinking and not scaring people with misinformation.


I hope I didn't upset you or anything Pooka1, I think that Dr. Kalla's forum is a good idea and it will benefit lots of people.

Young women who educate themselves and think for themselves not only don't upset me but give me hope for the future. :)

Dr. Kalla, a chiro, can help people explore alternative treatments. But he should avoid posting about surgery and other areas in which he has no training whatsoever... his track record is not good in this area.

[betty14]

Yeah I'm pretty young, but that doesn't mean my knowledge in big topics is lacking. I'm not crying, I'm not what you would call the average child. :) I have some very unique talents and interests. I can tell you about all sorts of medical things and Global warming and computers and much more. :).

Hi S4Sarah:
You seem like an intelligent young lady, and perhaps less sensitive than I was at your age!




Personally I don't agree with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways. Try alternative treatments first. There are so amny risks in surgery, (although it can be beneficial I'm not saying it's not) just to prepare for surgery is a task, some people go to see a Psychologist or couselour just to emotionally prepare for it. It is also very expensive and although treatments are improving there still are risks for infection, nerve damage, and many other complications. If it can be avoided it should be.

I just have two bits of (unsolicited) advice for you:
First, always verify the quality of the source of your information before determining if it's really good info.
Second, the word "fix" may be construed as meaning the same thing as "cure", and scoliosis unfortunately cannot be cured by any means, even surgery. Words like "managed" and "improved" and are more accurate terms.

Have a great night!

B.

[Pooka1]

I just have two bits of (unsolicited) advice for you:
First, always verify the quality of the source of your information before determining if it's really good info.

Good advice. Also, don't believe anything anyone else says, especially on fora like this. It doesn't matter how smart they sound. Always verify the information yourself INDEPENDENTLY. Some people are simply mistaken but a few are actively trying to lie to you about various matters. Be skeptical as a way to protect yourself from bad information.


Second, the word "fix" may be construed as meaning the same thing as "cure", and scoliosis unfortunately cannot be cured by any means, even surgery. Words like "managed" and "improved" and are more accurate terms.


Some cases are thought to be stabilized indefinitely though surgery wherein the patient has the same risk for all future back issues as a non-scoliotic. That would be tantamount to a cure if it pans out.

[LindaRacine]

This morning the FixScoliosis forums posted a message about people having trouble getting their confirmation emails. So, I got a log in, and posted to 2 threads. I just logged in to see:


You have been banned for the following reason:
No reason was specified.

Date the ban will be lifted: 06-30-2009, 10:00 PM


Here's FixScoliosis' response to my comments on the bad info on breaking rods:


SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: Using single-rod thoracoscopic anterior instrumentation for thoracic scoliosis, the complications of rod breakage at apex, high rate of nonunion, and resultant loss of coronal and sagittal correction has been reported.

so 2006 is old for you?

the above quote IS from SPINE in 2009 and they trying justify new technique development due to previous failure. IF that would not been an issue new development would not have been needed.

Secondly LindaRacine, as much as you send me PM's on the NSF wanting to restrict my views and moderating my post. I have not logged into the NSF after that, so you may keep the NSF free of content opposing surgery. I will keep this forum free from content categorically promoting surgery.

You access will be limited here on.

The only PM I sent to FixScoliosis was to remove his blog link from his signature line. This is a message I send to anyone who has a commercial site in a signature. I am not even allowed to have my own site in my signature, despite the fact that it is not at all commercial.

[Pooka1]

I am very disappointed in the loss of Fix/Kalla.

I felt like we had a reasonable chiro on board (not so common!) and that he contributed a lot to this forum.

I think I misread him a bit. :(

[mamamax]

It's a really nice site, the doctors who started it are really nice too, and knowledgable and cutting edge.

I don't know fi any of you ahve seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil, but even though it is about ALD the same things are happening with Scoliosis. As it is important to research and test treatments there is a such thing as over testing. In the movie Lorenzo's Oil Lorenzo Odone is dying from a genetic disorder called Adrenoleukodystrophy. When his parents are told there is nothing they can do about it except put him on a diet that doesn't help his parents are not one bit happy. They go out researching with scientists for a treatment and come up with Lorenzo's Oil. They give it to Lorenzo and it works (he ends up living to be an adult, usually boys diagnsoed with ALD live only a couple years passed their diagnosis) however when the parents go to an ALD conference people say "There is not enough research into this we can onyl listen to the scientists." These boys are dying from ALD, they can't wait!!!
People with Scoliosis can't wait either, some serious curves can cause serious problems and and curves in growing children can get much worse, some higher curves can even progress after growth! We can't keep relying on old treatments that may nto be the best. Treatments like Spinecor have actually been around since the late 1980's and early 1990's. There are many other treatments like CLEAR Institute, different methods, PT, special exercises, etc.
We need to research better treatments at a faster rate.

Doctors push surgery, in some rare cases like 100 degree curves it is sometimes the only option. Most cases however can be prevented from getting worse, and corrected without surgery. I like the fourm because I know from toher forms people get on with a 25 degree curve saying "I;m wearing a hard brace I'm afraid I'll ahve to get surgery" It is really discouraging for those people to ahve a thread right below saying "I'm getting surgery next week" I like Dr. Kalla's idea of another fourm. At first I was like "There are so many fourms for Scoliosis!" Then I relized how necessary it is to have a seperate non surgical fourm.

Dr. Kalla has some great views on Scoliosis treatment, he is very knowledgable and as I said above cutting edge. He posts some very interesting articles a lot of doctors probably never heard of.

Yeah it is very new and with all starting websites they need time to bloom. They all start out small and grow over the years.

Sarah - if i were your mom i would be so proud of you! A few comments have been made in this thread about the Art of Rhetoric and Critical Thinking (which some seem to believe is the art of criticizing :-) I see in you wonderful abilities in both areas - making you wise beyond your years. Critical Thinking was my favorite subject in college and i think you will excel in it. Some fun links i found today:

The Art of Rhetoric
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
http://www.rpi.edu/dept/llc/webclass/web/project1/group4/

Guide to Critical Thinking
College of the Siskiyous
http://www.siskiyous.edu/class/guid5/witherell/lectures/Lecture%20Week3.htm

And this one is best! http://www.criticalthinking.org/

I remember Lorenzo's Oil - great movie. Think i will rent it and re-watch this weekend. All the very best to you in your journey my dear!