Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

[mariaf]

I would hope that nobody is making a blanket statement that all doctors are biased towards surgery, as that would be unfair.

For example, I can't tell you how many parents I know who sought a consult for VBS and were told for one reason or another that surgery could be avoided in their child's particular case (maybe the child was almost done growing, or was tolerating bracing well and it was holding the curve, etc.)

At least in my experience - and from talking to numerous parents - doctors don't generally seem to be 'surgery happy'.

That said, if they feel that surgery is the best/only option, then of course they will recommend it - as they should.

[Pooka1]

I would hope that nobody is making a blanket statement that all doctors are biased towards surgery, as that would be unfair.

For example, I can't tell you how many parents I know who sought a consult for VBS and were told for one reason or another that surgery could be avoided in their child's particular case (maybe the child was almost done growing, or was tolerating bracing well and it was holding the curve, etc.)

At least in my experience - and from talking to numerous parents - doctors don't generally seem to be 'surgery happy'.

That said, if they feel that surgery is the best/only option, then of course they will recommend it - as they should.

I agree with this. In fact I think it is at least plausible to suggest earlier surgery in certain cases might reduce the length of fusions required. I am referring to certain connective tissue disorder cases wherein there is evidence that many/most/all(?) patients are refractory towards bracing.

If that is true then the surgeons are being too conservative when it comes to suggesting surgery for this group of patients.

There are lots of misconceptions spun up to attack the credibility and intellectual honesty of surgeons by people who are philosophically opposed to surgery. It's a form of ad hom and is unseemly.

[skevimc]

Correct me if I'm wrong please but isn't surgery the only treatment modality to date that has shown any frank efficacy whatsoever?

Saying doctors have a bias towards surgery is another way of saying they have a bias towards evidence (as they should).

Yes. In my comment I was thinking about a story Dr. Asher relayed to me that one time after a presentation he had given during the early to mid part of his career he was showing results of surgical cases and saying that he was 'curing' scoliosis. And the impression I got from him was that was a common thought amongst many surgeons, i.e. sugery was curing scoliosis. But a colleague challenged that thought and said "You say you are curing scoliosis. But you're not. You're just managing it". From that point he began to look at the way he practiced in a different way. Certainly a more realistic way, i.e. we're not curing we're managing. I was just relaying that I agree there was a literal shift in terminology and approach to scoliosis care that occurred but maybe not for the reasons some might think. Without that story my comment would definitely be out of context.

Indeed, evidence is good. :D


I would hope that nobody is making a blanket statement that all doctors are biased towards surgery, as that would be unfair.

At least in my experience - and from talking to numerous parents - doctors don't generally seem to be 'surgery happy'.

That said, if they feel that surgery is the best/only option, then of course they will recommend it - as they should.

To make sure I'm not misunderstood, I am definitely not applying a blanket statement. I was speaking more globally about the common thought or bias against surgeons that all they want to do is operate. The website Nim found played in to that idea, or at least could be used to support that idea (Not saying that Nim feels that way either. Just speaking in general terms.)

That being said, Western medicine has definitely shifted over the decades to a high intervention philosophy. There's always a better drug or procedure or device to try. Prevention has been ignored among several other things... But this starts a conversation that is way off topic.



There are lots of misconceptions spun up to attack the credibility and intellectual honesty of surgeons by people who are philosophically opposed to surgery. It's a form of ad hom and is unseemly.

Agreed.

[Pooka1]

Yes. In my comment I was thinking about a story Dr. Asher relayed to me that one time after a presentation he had given during the early to mid part of his career he was showing results of surgical cases and saying that he was 'curing' scoliosis. And the impression I got from him was that was a common thought amongst many surgeons, i.e. sugery was curing scoliosis. But a colleague challenged that thought and said "You say you are curing scoliosis. But you're not. You're just managing it". From that point he began to look at the way he practiced in a different way. Certainly a more realistic way, i.e. we're not curing we're managing. I was just relaying that I agree there was a literal shift in terminology and approach to scoliosis care that occurred but maybe not for the reasons some might think. Without that story my comment would definitely be out of context.

Indeed, evidence is good. :D

Well this has actually come up before. Our surgeon stated (twice because I asked him to repeat it) that my one daughter was back in the general population on risk for all future back problems (due mostly to where her fusion ended distally). While he did not say she was "cured," I don't know what the functional difference is between "back in the population for risk of all future back issues" and "cured." I didn't ask about the other daughter but her fusion ended at the same vertebra so I assume she is back in the pool also.


To make sure I'm not misunderstood, I am definitely not applying a blanket statement. I was speaking more globally about the common thought or bias against surgeons that all they want to do is operate. The website Nim found played in to that idea, or at least could be used to support that idea (Not saying that Nim feels that way either. Just speaking in general terms.)

My comments were not directed at you. You are a researcher trying to help and so are one of the good guys along with the surgeons.


That being said, Western medicine has definitely shifted over the decades to a high intervention philosophy. There's always a better drug or procedure or device to try. Prevention has been ignored among several other things... But this starts a conversation that is way off topic.

Prevention has been shown to be far less costly and still it isn't done in many cases. Of course prevention doesn't apply to the topic of scoliosis outside of research efforts but in general the point stands.

In the mean time, the only game is town is evidence. If you aren't evidence-driven then you might as well be singing. No offense to Singer. :)

[rohrer01]

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words. :)

Before and after x-rays (1 year) (http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5517/trs1year.jpg)

This wasn't deserving of the severe attack that it received. Honestly, Linda, would you talk to a patient or a patient's parents this way? ...Well, you just did. It was very unprofessional. You are supposed to be the moderator, not the attack starter. This was a very appropriate place to post this. No where in his post do I see that he said the device cured her scoliosis. Yes, it was implied by, "This one is worth 1,000 words." But the way it was stated was implied by an excited parent who uses, or will use in the future, this technique. I honestly believe that if this were posted by someone other than Dingo, this attack would not have occured. There is a difference between disagreeing with someone, whether they be a layperson or a scientist, and attacking them at every turn. I am very disappointed in the unprofessionalism that goes on here, and within the National Scoliosis Foundation no less. :(

[hdugger]

Well this has actually come up before. Our surgeon stated (twice because I asked him to repeat it) that my one daughter was back in the general population on risk for all future back problems (due mostly to where her fusion ended distally). While he did not say she was "cured," I don't know what the functional difference is between "back in the population for risk of all future back issues" and "cured." I didn't ask about the other daughter but her fusion ended at the same vertebra so I assume she is back in the pool also.

I don't think any procedure that takes a flexible part of your body and completely immobilizes it can be considered a "cure." Certainly making the spine inflexible reduces the risk of some other problems (like curve progression within the fusion), but a fusion is as far from normal as an unfused curved spine.

That's not to diss surgery or take away from your daughter's prognosis. Surgery has helped many people avoid the problems of a curved spine, but it has put us no closer to a "cure" for scoliosis than any other treatment.

[Pooka1]

I don't think any procedure that takes a flexible part of your body and completely immobilizes it can be considered a "cure."

And yet removing entire organs (appendix, kidney, etc.) cures folks.

My kids have part of their thorax fused. They tell me is very hard to tell the difference between having a fused and unfused thorax in practice. They feel normal thanks to surgery.


Certainly making the spine inflexible reduces the risk of some other problems (like curve progression within the fusion), but a fusion is as far from normal as an unfused curved spine.

So if a doctor told you a procedure returned you to the general population on risk for all future issues associated with that area of your body you would NOT consider yourself cured? What would you consider that?

[Pooka1]

I honestly believe that if this were posted by someone other than Dingo, this attack would not have occurred.

Speaking only for my self, I completely disagree.

Pseudoscience and ignorance must be opposed.

[skevimc]

I don't think any procedure that takes a flexible part of your body and completely immobilizes it can be considered a "cure." Certainly making the spine inflexible reduces the risk of some other problems (like curve progression within the fusion), but a fusion is as far from normal as an unfused curved spine.

That's not to diss surgery or take away from your daughter's prognosis. Surgery has helped many people avoid the problems of a curved spine, but it has put us no closer to a "cure" for scoliosis than any other treatment.


And yet removing entire organs (appendix, kidney, etc.) cures folks.

My kids have part of their thorax fused. They tell me is very hard to tell the difference between having a fused and unfused thorax in practice. They feel normal thanks to surgery.



So if a doctor told you a procedure returned you to the general population on risk for all future issues associated with that area of your body you would NOT consider yourself cured? What would you consider that?


I think "cure" could be a philosophical debate and would probably be different based on the disease/condition/organ... Even personal preference. I think cancer patients don't say they are 'cured' until 5 years of remission and then they are cancer survivors. I'm not sure if they'd really consider themselves 'cured', although some might. Someone with colitis who had their colon removed might be freed from the colitis but would they consider that to be cured? Someone with a scoliosis and fused spine would still have scoliosis but with reduced/absent(?) risk for progression and side effects.

Can we say something is 'cured' when we're not sure what has caused it? Does the removal of symptoms or reduction of risk factors mean a person is cured? Is the disease/condition still present but a person no longer experiences the symptoms? :confused: Interesting to think about.

[hdugger]

And yet removing entire organs (appendix, kidney, etc.) cures folks.

We're drifting into semantics. If I had cancer in my hand and it was removed, I'd be cured of the cancer. But, when people discuss a "cure" for cancer, that's not really what they mean. What they mean is more "a return to the way it was before the cancer." Before the cancer, (hypothetical) I had a hand. Before the fusion, the spine was made up of individual vertebrae. Cutting off the hand and/or fusing the spine resolved the problem at hand, but it didn't return to the way it was before the disease.



So if a doctor told you a procedure returned you to the general population on risk for all future issues associated with that area of your body you would NOT consider yourself cured? What would you consider that?

I might ask him how he knew that, given the relatively short history of this hardware and the relatively high rate of revision surgery even with this newer hardware (as cited in previous discussions). We're 40 or 50 years out from having enough evidence to offer that kind of reassurance. I certainly *hope* that his theory is correct, but I'd have no way of assessing it.

[Pooka1]

(snip) Someone with a scoliosis and fused spine would still have scoliosis but with reduced/absent(?) risk for progression and side effects. (snip)

Just to be clear, his comment said ALL future conditions, not only those associated with scoliosis such as progression. In fact one thing my daughter will not likely ever have to worry again about is progression now that she is solidly fused.

Of course when you have DDD being as inevitable as death and taxes if you live long enough, being fused doesn't mean no more issues. In my daughter's case, it just means her risk of developing back issues is now about the same as an unfused person. Note this is not necessarily true of all fusions and all patients. I think balance in all planes comes into play. The surgeon either hits that or doesn't. In her case, he hit the balance in all planes.

[Pooka1]

I might ask him how he knew that, given the relatively short history of this hardware and the relatively high rate of revision surgery even with this newer hardware (as cited in previous discussions). We're 40 or 50 years out from having enough evidence to offer that kind of reassurance. I certainly *hope* that his theory is correct, but I'd have no way of assessing it.

I'm guessing he is extrapolating from what is known of H rod T fusions and given pedicle screws improve even on that record.

Not really sure though but that's my guess.

[hdugger]

Not really sure though but that's my guess.

Yes, that's my guess too, but it's just an extrapolation, not a fact or a guarantee. I was surprised by the research Linda posted showing a high revision rate even with the new hardware, so the verdict is far from in.

So, given all that, no, I would not consider scoliosis "cured" by a fusion. Even less so, in my son's case, because I have not yet seen a surgery that involves kyphosis where the surgery has not caused its own set of problems.

Again, this does not at all mean that your daughter's prognosis won't be rosy. But it does explain why I push against the idea that the "cure" for scoliosis has been found, so why keep looking. Most of the members on this forum aren't facing as rosy a prognosis, and the search for a *real* cure is, for us, as urgent as ever.

[Pooka1]

But it does explain why I push against the idea that the "cure" for scoliosis has been found, so why keep looking. Most of the members on this forum aren't facing as rosy a prognosis, and the search for a *real* cure is, for us, as urgent as ever.

The surgeons will not solve scoliosis in that way. The molecular guys and the brain guys and the endocrinology guys and others will solve the etiology. Then they are going to have to come up with a preventative strategy, if possible.

[LindaRacine]

This wasn't deserving of the severe attack that it received. Honestly, Linda, would you talk to a patient or a patient's parents this way? ...Well, you just did. It was very unprofessional. You are supposed to be the moderator, not the attack starter. This was a very appropriate place to post this. No where in his post do I see that he said the device cured her scoliosis. Yes, it was implied by, "This one is worth 1,000 words." But the way it was stated was implied by an excited parent who uses, or will use in the future, this technique. I honestly believe that if this were posted by someone other than Dingo, this attack would not have occured. There is a difference between disagreeing with someone, whether they be a layperson or a scientist, and attacking them at every turn. I am very disappointed in the unprofessionalism that goes on here, and within the National Scoliosis Foundation no less. :(

I am not affiliated with the NSF, and do not represent them. I'm a patient and active poster here first. I was asked to moderate because of my activity and experience. As part of that, I didn't sign away any rights about what to post. I find it interesting that you found my statement to be a severe attack, but never said a word about some of the nastigrams launced by Dingo. What is it about certain people that makes them go right to the personal attack strategy when they don't have a credible argument on the debate?

And, believe what you will, I am an equal opportunity poster. If Sharon had posted what Dingo posted, I would have made the same comment.

[Pooka1]

And, believe what you will, I am an equal opportunity poster. If Sharon had posted what Dingo posted, I would have made the same comment.

If I posted what Dingo posts I would excoriate myself. Intellectual honesty would demand it. When you play for the science team you can't even think about freelancing for the other team. :)

[Dingo]

Me:
:confused::eek:

LindaRacine:
:mad::mad::mad:

Pooka1:
:mad::mad::mad::mad::p

[Pooka1]

Me:
:confused::eek:

LindaRacine:
:mad::mad::mad:

Pooka1:
::mad::mad::mad::mad::p

http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/01/11/you-make-bunny-cry/

[LindaRacine]

Do you think that a personal attack will distract people from the debate? I doubt it.

How difficult is it to understand the difference between attacking an idea and attacking a person?

[Pooka1]

Do you think that a personal attack will distract people from the debate? I doubt it.

How difficult is it to understand the difference between attacking an idea and attacking a person?

That is beyond most people as evidenced by certain "debates" on other topics that are older than dirt.

[Dingo]

LindaRacine

My honest opinion is that you are an angry woman. That's fine because sometimes the world needs angry people to get certain jobs done. But moderating a Scoliosis forum for parents and children is not one of those things. You shouldn't have felt or expressed anything negative about the little girl's curve that reconciled. That's not right.

The other thing that's not right is Pooka. She has already been kicked off two Scoliosis boards. For all I know it's more than two. I don't think you see how disruptive her endless insults and tirades are. Her posts look bad on you and they look bad on NSF.

[LindaRacine]

How difficult is it to understand the difference between attacking an idea and attacking a person?

Apparently, the answer is very.

[Pooka1]

The other thing that's not right is Pooka. She has already been kicked off two Scoliosis boards.

Lies. You have no shame.

[LindaRacine]

The other thing that's not right is Pooka. She has already been kicked off two Scoliosis boards. For all I know it's more than two. I don't think you see how disruptive her endless insults and tirades are. Her posts look bad on you and they look bad on NSF.

Yet, you keep returning without changing your own behavior.

[Pooka1]

LindaRacine

The other thing that's not right is Pooka. She has already been kicked off two Scoliosis boards.

Name these two boards.

You have no shame. No honor to lie like this. Clearly you are not emotionally able to approach this subject in an honest manner.

[Dingo]

LindaRacine


Yet, you keep returning without changing your own behavior.

What could I do better?

[Pooka1]

What could I do better?

Stop lying for a start.

[rohrer01]

If I posted what Dingo posts I would excoriate myself. Intellectual honesty would demand it. When you play for the science team you can't even think about freelancing for the other team. :)

I honestly thought that this was a place to come for free interchange of information. I didn't find anything offending about Dingo's post. Yes, for a fact I have disagreed with Dingo in the past and I have stated so. But, as a moderator, whether Linda likes it or not, she IS representing the NSF to the general population. I don't like getting sucked into other people's arguments. I just felt bad because I thought that this was a legitimate post. It wasn't outlandish or folksciency. He was excited for what happened to his friend's daughter. If anyone with scoliosis, or with a child with scoliosis, can be given a shred of hope to think they might be doing something good for themselves or their child, that is a good thing. Hope changes the mental attitude from negative to positive.

I could think of better things to legitimately criticize for, but not this. I can't say that exercise is folkscience, as I'm sure there are some here more qualified than me to express the same opinion. I know that when I exercise my pain gets better. Something good must be happening in there, even if my curve doesn't improve.

I'm not butting in to dispute true science over folkscience. I'm butting in over human kindness. There were far more tactful ways that Linda could have expressed herself.

It's sad to think that this is how people think of us when we leave the doctor's office over what may be a minimal thing to the "medical" staff, but be a very big thing to the patient or parent. What if the little girl's mom reads what Linda posted? Granted, my son had a curve of about that at about 8 or 9 years old that had completely resolved on it's own by age 12 or so. But you never know who is going to be in that "lucky" group that goes on to progress. At least her parents caught it very early and did something. Now they can feel like they did everything they could, whether it was the exercise or not that fixed it. That is a good feeling as a parent and worth sharing.:)

Everyone knows that positive attitudes and love contribute to good health. (and no, I'm not saying they will cure scoliosis, but a better attitude DOES reduce pain - that's from personal experience) People come on here for information about the disease and to share and express themselves. I think we should all be a little more kind, including me, whether frustrated or not.

[rohrer01]

I am not affiliated with the NSF, and do not represent them. I'm a patient and active poster here first. I was asked to moderate because of my activity and experience. As part of that, I didn't sign away any rights about what to post. I find it interesting that you found my statement to be a severe attack, but never said a word about some of the nastigrams launced by Dingo. What is it about certain people that makes them go right to the personal attack strategy when they don't have a credible argument on the debate?

And, believe what you will, I am an equal opportunity poster. If Sharon had posted what Dingo posted, I would have made the same comment.

Oh, but you are wrong. To people that come to this forum you DO represent the NSF. I for one would have to frown upon them if they let this kind on fighting go on in THEIR forum.

As far as Dingo's attacks. YOU are the moderator and supposed to be the grownup here. I haven't been on this board long enough to see what everyone has said. Quite frankly, maybe I didn't read the threads you are talking about. In fact I HAVE chastized Dingo for being closed minded. But, when some people are constantly criticized in a hurtful way, they simply shut down and don't want to hear any more from the people who talk that way to them. I feel that I have been cross-the-line frank with Dingo.

I feel that this kind of behavior on the part of the moderator is disturbing. It limits people from posting because they may be afraid you will say something like to them. It embarrasses some people to be treated that way. Dingo keeps coming back because he, apparently, isn't one of those kind of people that will be stifled out of fear of retaliation.

This hostility needs to STOP or people will quit coming here. I wish everyone would just quit fighting.:(

And BTW, this thread is no longer progressive in any positive way. The fighting always seem to ruin the good threads.

[Pooka1]

I honestly thought that this was a place to come for free interchange of information. I didn't find anything offending about Dingo's post. Yes, for a fact I have disagreed with Dingo in the past and I have stated so.

You are relatively new here. And what is your concern level with other lay people coming on here, reading this stuff and popping for a $5K MedX machine using $5K they really can't afford? That is sad.


But, as a moderator, whether Linda likes it or not, she IS representing the NSF to the general population. I don't like getting sucked into other people's arguments. I just felt bad because I thought that this was a legitimate post. It wasn't outlandish or folksciency. He was excited for what happened to his friend's daughter. If anyone with scoliosis, or with a child with scoliosis, can be given a shred of hope to think they might be doing something good for themselves or their child, that is a good thing. Hope changes the mental attitude from negative to positive.

Linda's comments in no way undermined the success of the girl. It exclusively addressed the intentionally misleading way it was posted. I was blindsided by the criticism Linda's post received as it was obvious that it wasn't directed at the girl and her family. This is yet another instance of if you can't engage the substance, complain about tone. It is the only tactic available of certain anti-science, counterfactual positions. I recognize it immediately and it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck because it isn't honest criticism. At this point, if someone even mentions tone I consider that they have conceded the arguments on merit. (Also, if someone mentions Weiss's ridiculous article on pros and cons of surgery I consider that a concession in the argument. Some things are by their nature avoiding the argument at hand.)


Everyone knows that positive attitudes and love contribute to good health. (and no, I'm not saying they will cure scoliosis, but a better attitude DOES reduce pain - that's from personal experience) People come on here for information about the disease and to share and express themselves. I think we should all be a little more kind, including me, whether frustrated or not.

I could possibly overlook everything except the researcher bashing. That is just beyond the pale. The researchers are the good guys. When we have an untrained person come on here and accuse a researcher and past SRS resident of doing "silly" science, that's over my folkscience limit by a mile.

[Pooka1]

This hostility needs to STOP or people will quit coming here.

I never thought I would say it but I think some people would be more comfortable on other fora that are not so wedded to science and facts. It would be a favor to themselves.

[mamamax]

Case in Point ..... :rolleyes:

[flerc]

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words. :)

Before and after x-rays (1 year) (http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5517/trs1year.jpg)

Is so frequent that the curve is completely gone at age 11 in a spontaneous way? If not, no doubt is a great notice, great post, congratulations and thanks for share!

[hdugger]

Is so frequent that the curve is completely gone at age 11 in a spontaneous way? If not, no doubt is a great notice, great post, congratulations and thanks for share!

No, it's not that frequent. According to what's been posted so far, there's about a 10% chance that the curve will spontaneously completely reduce and a 15% chance that it will progress.

[Pooka1]

No, it's not that frequent. According to what's been posted so far, there's about a 10% chance that the curve will spontaneously completely reduce and a 15% chance that it will progress.

For all right TL curves (magnitude < or = 18*), 10/80 = 12.5% resolved completely and spontaneously.

For all types of 11* curves, 20/80 or 25% resolved completely and spontaneously.

N.B. small sample sizes.

[Dingo]

hdugger


No, it's not that frequent. According to what's been posted so far, there's about a 10% chance that the curve will spontaneously completely reduce and a 15% chance that it will progress.

Yep and what are the odds that regression would occur at precisely the same time that PT began? 1 in a million?

What an amazing coincidence. :)

[hdugger]

For all right TL curves (magnitude < or = 18*), 10/80 = 12.5% resolved completely and spontaneously.

For all types of 11* curves, 20/80 or 25% resolved completely and spontaneously.

N.B. small sample sizes.

Small sample size, and it also looked as if the natural history was different for boys and girls, but I didn't have time to parse out the data.

Also, it's likely that the xrays are from someone diagnosed with juvenile scoliosis (just a guess that she was younger then 10 when diagnosed, since she's only 11 now) and I don't have a good handle on the prognosis for that age group at all.

[rohrer01]

hdugger



Yep and what are the odds that regression would occur at precisely the same time that PT began? 1 in a million?

What an amazing coincidence. :)

Dingo, how do you know that regression occurred at the same time as PT began? Were they following her from zero to 11*? If not, you really can't say that. It could have been worse at some point prior and they didn't find it until it started to get better and was already improved to 11*. My son had a curve about that size spontaneously dissappear.

[Pooka1]

Small sample size, and it also looked as if the natural history was different for boys and girls, but I didn't have time to parse out the data.

Also, it's likely that the xrays are from someone diagnosed with juvenile scoliosis (just a guess that she was younger then 10 when diagnosed, since she's only 11 now) and I don't have a good handle on the prognosis for that age group at all.

I think she was 11 when diagnosed and is 12 now.

These sample sizes are probably too small to discuss in anything other than a lumped, overarching way. If fact the total sample size might be too small to say much.

[hdugger]

Dingo, you probably know the statistics for juvenile scoliosis better then I do. What's the risk of progressing, given a very small curve at diagnosis?

[Pooka1]

Dingo, how do you know that regression occurred at the same time as PT began? Were they following her from zero to 11*? If not, you really can't say that. It could have been worse at some point prior and they didn't find it until it started to get better and was already improved to 11*. My son had a curve about that size spontaneously disappear.

Good point. The other thing is that we know PT can temporarily reduce curves. Having the PT coincident with the resolution is not necessarily a good thing. The fact that she resolved after a year of PT might trigger the question if she will progress if she stops. I certainly hope not after doing all that PT! Maybe McIntire can weigh in.

I wonder if she will ever stop even after her growth spurt? She may be afraid to do so. She may get anxious if she is sick and can't exercise. Again, I hope McIntire will weigh in.

Reason #5,908,664 why research on PT and scoliosis is so difficult.

[rohrer01]

If she was diagnosed at 11, with an 11* curve, then no one really knows "when" improvement began. Unless it was followed from zero to 11* it can't be stated authoritatively that improvement began when PT started. Although, circumstantially it looks that way.

[rohrer01]

Good point. The other thing is that we know PT can temporarily reduce curves. Having the PT coincident with the resolution is not necessarily a good thing. The fact that she resolved after a year of PT might trigger the question if she will progress if she stops. I certainly hope not after doing all that PT! Maybe McIntire can weigh in.

I wonder if she will ever stop even after her growth spurt? She may be afraid to do so. She may get anxious if she is sick and can't exercise. Again, I hope McIntire will weigh in.

Reason #5,908,664 why research on PT and scoliosis is so difficult.

I know if I were in her shoes, I certainly would be afraid to stop for any length of time.

[Pooka1]

I know if I were in her shoes, I certainly would be afraid to stop for any length of time.

Me too. Life is so unfair.

[Pooka1]

If she was diagnosed at 11, with an 11* curve, then no one really knows "when" improvement began. Unless it was followed from zero to 11* it can't be stated authoritatively that improvement began when PT started. Although, circumstantially it looks that way.

Yes.
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.

[aterry]

Dingo, THANK YOU for your posts and please keep up the good work. I find a number of people on this forum supportive of each other and I look forward to their posts: flerc, mamamax, skevimc, concerneddad (who I miss, a lot), fireflymd. And many others--I made a list but it was soooo long. I wish the site was moderated, but it's not. So perhaps we should just IGNORE, by not answering or posting back, the two people who insist on being cruel. I don't understand the impulse to wish that positive developments should not occur; that all patients should get worse curves and suffer until they are forced into expensive and dangerous surgery--especially our children. But we know who they are so just skip over their posts. Don't even read them, or block them.

[hdugger]

I know if I were in her shoes, I certainly would be afraid to stop for any length of time.

Why?

If the curve is actually easily reversed with exercise, then it can be easily reversed again if it progresses. And, if it's not easily reversed with exercise, then it doesn't matter if she stops or not.

[Pooka1]

Why?

If the curve is actually easily reversed with exercise, then it can be easily reversed again if it progresses. And, if it's not easily reversed with exercise, then it doesn't matter if she stops or not.

She exercised a year. So we can't say it was "easily" reduced even if it was the PT.

We further can't say it would be as easily reduced again especially if it got bigger at any point say during the growth spurt to come or if it got stiffer just with age.

I don't follow the last point.

[skevimc]

Good point. The other thing is that we know PT can temporarily reduce curves. Having the PT coincident with the resolution is not necessarily a good thing. The fact that she resolved after a year of PT might trigger the question if she will progress if she stops. I certainly hope not after doing all that PT! Maybe McIntire can weigh in.

I wonder if she will ever stop even after her growth spurt? She may be afraid to do so. She may get anxious if she is sick and can't exercise. Again, I hope McIntire will weigh in.

Reason #5,908,664 why research on PT and scoliosis is so difficult.

We began to think that T/L curves responded the best to TRS. There were 3 that reduced (2 completely) and held for ~2-3 years at last follow-up with no further training.

Then there was another T/L curve in a boy that trained and reduced. Stopped training and progressed. Started training again and reduced. I'm reasonably convinced that the fluctuation was because of the training. But since he was off the protocol by that time we weren't officially following him and testing him. We probably could have, but I was graduating and moving at the time so the study was basically shut down.

Then there was another T/L curve whose compensatory curve progressed after 5 months.

Anecdotally, it would seem the T/L curves do respond better, and biomechanically it makes sense. But I'm not sure if that would hold up with a larger n.

I'd just be guessing completely to say whether it would progress or not if she stopped working out. And I learned that what you think will happen is wrong half the time, i.e. you'd get just as good of an answer by flipping a coin. :) I think I read that the family bought a used Cybex machine for a couple of hundred dollars. If she has it at home, I'd keep my kid doing it. The worst thing that could happen is that she gets strong abs.

[rohrer01]

Why?

If the curve is actually easily reversed with exercise, then it can be easily reversed again if it progresses. And, if it's not easily reversed with exercise, then it doesn't matter if she stops or not.

Well, for one, if she progressed without knowing it and progressed farther than 11*, it might not be so easily reversed. Also, she is a child and children's spines are more flexible. If she develops a curve as an adult, she might not be able to reverse it then either. If she continues and keeps her core muscles and back muscles strong, I would think that it would reduce her chances of progressing again. I'm not an expert, it's just my thought.

If I found an exercise that cured my scoliosis, which I do have, I just wouldn't quit. I have pain associated with it.

[Dingo]

Rohrer01


Dingo, how do you know that regression occurred at the same time as PT began? Were they following her from zero to 11*? If not, you really can't say that. It could have been worse at some point prior and they didn't find it until it started to get better and was already improved to 11*. My son had a curve about that size spontaneously dissappear.

This is the history of this case as I remember it. She was diagnosed with a 9 degree curve. Although pain isn't usually associated with Scoliosis in kids this girl had some pain. If I remember correctly the mom thought that the curve was continuing to progress. Three months later she went in again and her curve had progressed to 11 degrees. At that point the mom came across the thread on Torso Rotation Therapy (the old one that used to be in the research section I believe). She purchased a used Cybex machine and had it shipped to her home. After a short period of time her mom noticed that her daughter's back was improving. One year later at her recheck the curve was gone.

I hope I have my facts straight. In the future I'm going to try and get an exact timeline of events and post it here for other parents. As a side note the girl's father is an M.D.

[Dingo]

hdugger


Dingo, you probably know the statistics for juvenile scoliosis better then I do. What's the risk of progressing, given a very small curve at diagnosis?

For small curves I'm not exactly sure. However Scoliosis among Juveniles is much more dangerous than it is among adolescents. In this study of 205 Juveniles with Scoliosis (source (http://journals.lww.com/spinejournal/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2006&issue=08010&article=00010&type=abstract)) 99 or 48.3% were ultimately fused.

At onset of puberty...
Curves less than 20 degrees progressed to fusion 15.6% of the time.
Curves between 21 and 30 degrees progressed to fusion 75% of the time.
Curves over 30 degrees at puberty progressed to fusion 100% of the time.

Among adolescents Scoliosis is much more dangerous if you are a girl. However among Juveniles the rate of progression is about the same for boys and girls.

[Dingo]

aterry


Dingo, THANK YOU for your posts and please keep up the good work. I find a number of people on this forum supportive of each other and I look forward to their posts: flerc, mamamax, skevimc, concerneddad (who I miss, a lot), fireflymd. And many others--I made a list but it was soooo long. I wish the site was moderated, but it's not. So perhaps we should just IGNORE, by not answering or posting back, the two people who insist on being cruel. I don't understand the impulse to wish that positive developments should not occur; that all patients should get worse curves and suffer until they are forced into expensive and dangerous surgery--especially our children. But we know who they are so just skip over their posts. Don't even read them, or block them.

Thanks, I'm glad you liked the x-rays. I miss concerneddad too!

BTW I used to make an attempt to argue down every ridiculous thing I read on this forum. Then I discovered the ignore feature. I think my blood pressure dropped 10 points since then. :)

[Dingo]

I sent the 12 year old girl's x-rays with a small amount of support information about TRS to scientists around the globe. The x-rays went to researchers in the USA, Greece, The Netherlands, Poland, Spain, Australia, Germany, Canada, Turkey, etc. etc. You name it and they probably went there.

Many scientists were kind enough to write back and so I thought people on this forum might be interested to know what top researchers thought about TRS.

Long story short they don't because outside of 2 notable exceptions my sense was that nobody had heard of it. This includes one researcher who knew Dr. Vert Mooney and told me that he'd never heard of TRS.

As for their reactions...
2 researchers seemed dismissive, 1 was very interested so I sent him the TRS video and study links and the other few fell somewhere in the middle.

In one response I got an indication that the x-rays had been forwarded to at least one other scientist whose name I could not possibly pronounce. :)

[mamamax]

Well referenced posting/sharing from another forum (with author permission) regarding the topic:

I've studied the topic of spontaneous resolution quite thoroughly. In one of the earliest papers I wrote, one of the criticisms laid forth was that most cases of scoliosis resolve spontaneously, without the need for treatment. I have not seen this clinically, and there are many, many research papers which provide evidence against it. If the reader of this post is familiar with Martha Hawes, PhD, you may recall her discussion, Progression and Natural History, in Chapter 1, under Subheading G, in her book Scoliosis and the Human Spine: "Virtually all cases of juvenile IS are progressive (Robinson and McMaster 1996)." I must give due credit to Dr. Hawes, for many of the references below come from this landmark publication; everyone who is interested in the topic of scoliosis should own at least one copy of this text. I personally owe a deep debt of gratitude to her & this book for inspiring my own research journey into the field of scoliosis.

The age of a patient has been shown to significantly affect the chance of regression. Numerous studies confirm that a significant percentage of infantile scoliosis cases do, in fact, resolve spontaneously (Drummond 1985, McMaster 1985, Wynne-Davis 1978). In a review of clinical surveys of infantile scoliosis, the rate of spontaneous regression averaged at 53.7% and the rate of progression averaged 38.9%, out of over six-hundred combined patients (James 1955, Scott & Morgan 1955, Mehta 1972, Ceballos et al. 1980, McMaster 1983, Lloyd-Roberts 1965). However, it has been known since 1959 that out of the cases which do progress, the vast majority (98%) will develop into severe curvatures measuring 70 degrees or greater (James et al. 1959). According to Branthwaite 1986 and McMaster 1985, cases of infantile scoliosis which progress to this level have a high likelihood of resulting in death or disability before early adulthood.

Also, the chance that the scoliosis will improve without treatment lessens progressively with age. In one study, 104 out of 109 cases of juvenile IS (between the ages of 3 and 10), progressed; only 5% improved by >5 degrees (Robinson and McMaster 1996). Lonstein and Carlson (1984) reported a spontaneous regression of 11%, and Brooks et al (1975) reported 22%. However, in all of these instances, the magnitude of the curvature was initially measured to be mild (less than 30 degrees), and also included cases that did not technically classify as scoliosis at all (less than 10 degrees).

Even during the growth spurt, the chance of spontaneous regression remains very small: "Spontaneous regress of the curve almost never occurs in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis." (Sevastik JA: Idiopathic Scoliosis: What is it? Research into Spinal Deformities I, J.A. Sevastik and K.M. Diab (Eds.), IOS Press 1997, p. 37-40.)

There has never been an instance published in the literature where a moderate to severe scoliosis (above 30 degrees) spontaneously regressed post-skeletal maturity; rather, among 584 cases of adult spinal deformity followed without treatment for up to fifty years, sixty to one-hundred percent were found to demonstrate significant progression (Ascani et al. 1986, Bjerkrein & Hassan 1982, Collis & Ponseti 1968, Korovessis et al 1994, Weinstein & Ponseti 1983).

I hope this information is helpful in combatting the myth that scoliosis is a benign condition, undeserving of treatment, with little effect upon a person's physical & psychological status. In my personal opinion, this point of view is often put forward by individuals who have no real answers to give to the problem of scoliosis, so they insist that efforts to treat it are without value, when in truth - as anyone knows who has scoliosis or has a friend or family member who does - research into early detection & treatment is desperately needed to prevent the significant physical & psychosocial burdens that oft accompany this condition in his later stages.


Warmest Regards,
Dr. Josh Woggon
Director of Research
CLEAR Institute
jwoggon@clear-institute.org

[Pooka1]

Well referenced posting/sharing from another forum (with author permission) regarding the topic:

I've studied the topic of spontaneous resolution quite thoroughly. In one of the earliest papers I wrote, one of the criticisms laid forth was that most cases of scoliosis resolve spontaneously, without the need for treatment. I have not seen this clinically,

What is the range and frequency of curves this guy has seen? I bet he rarely sees anything less than 30*. That will completely skew his data and observations. Thus it is irrelevant that he hasn't seen this. What he has seen is Clear failing to resolve any curve.


and there are many, many research papers which provide evidence against it.

And yet he didn't even list one. I challenge him to list "many, many" articles in the peer reviewed literature. Maybe he is talking about chiro journals which of course is not relevant to the discussion.


If the reader of this post is familiar with Martha Hawes, PhD, you may recall her discussion, Progression and Natural History, in Chapter 1, under Subheading G, in her book Scoliosis and the Human Spine: "Virtually all cases of juvenile IS are progressive (Robinson and McMaster 1996)."

At any point, will this guy be addressing the issue at hand... a resolution of an 11* AIS curve? Is it so hard to stay on point? Why?

(snip more irrelevant discussion)


Even during the growth spurt, the chance of spontaneous regression remains very small: "Spontaneous regress of the curve almost never occurs in adolescent idiopathic scoliosis." (Sevastik JA: Idiopathic Scoliosis: What is it? Research into Spinal Deformities I, J.A. Sevastik and K.M. Diab (Eds.), IOS Press 1997, p. 37-40.)

And yet Soucacos, et al., (1998) documented a very high percentage. Soucacos, et al., (1998) does post date this article but not what Woggon wrote.


There has never been an instance published in the literature where a moderate to severe scoliosis (above 30 degrees) spontaneously regressed post-skeletal maturity;

Irrelevant again. The subject is a complete regression of an 11* curve in AIS.


I hope this information is helpful in combatting (sic) the myth that scoliosis is a benign condition, undeserving of treatment, with little effect upon a person's physical & psychological status.

It is completely unhelpful as it is mostly irrelevant. Further, you are arguing strawman arguments; Nobody is claiming it is benign (universally) with little effect on a person's well being.

I wish this guy would address the conclusion in Soucacos that... "In conclusion, the findings of the present study strongly suggest that only a small percentage of scoliotic curves will undergo progression."


In my personal opinion, this point of view is often put forward by individuals who have no real answers to give to the problem of scoliosis,

Including Clear, of course.


so they insist that efforts to treat it are without value,

Charging people to try anything that pops into the head of Clear folks is without value in my opinion. Chiros have no relevant training to be treating scoliosis.


when in truth - as anyone knows who has scoliosis or has a friend or family member who does - research into early detection & treatment is desperately needed to prevent the significant physical & psychosocial burdens that oft accompany this condition in his later stages.

Does Clear admit they are only researching scoliosis "treatments" and don't presently have any proven treatment either for early or late stage scoliosis??

[LindaRacine]

[COLOR="Navy"]
I've studied the topic of spontaneous resolution quite thoroughly. In one of the earliest papers I wrote,
Dr. Josh Woggon
Director of Research
CLEAR Institute
jwoggon@clear-institute.org

It was hard for me to get past the first sentence:

[Pooka1]

It was hard for me to get past the first sentence:

That guy is spitting in the wind and fooling the poor bunnies. :mad:

[Back-out]

Maybe, maybe he is referring to the fact [word?] that so many kids start off with small curves which might technically qualify for a dx of mild scoliosis but then they grow up, and don't complain again - to the best of his knowledge.

After all, how many initial scoli dxes turn really nasty? A minority, I believe. No?

(Love all the great metaphors! :D)

[Dingo]

The mother of the girl whose scoliosis reconciled sent me 2 additional sets of x-rays and information for a timeline.

Here is a link
Pic: Scoliosis reconciles in adolescent female (http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4903/trs990x670.jpg)

Of particular interest to me is the fact that her lumbar reconciled after a little more than 3 months.

[Dingo]

YouTube: MedX Torso Rotation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhJPxBQBCXA)


This machine does a great job of eliminating contribution from other muscles when trying to exercise the Obliques. The lower back is involved as well, but not to the same extent as the obliques. This is (as far as I know) the only MedX Torso Rotation machine in Sweden, and I am proud to be the reason it´s here.

[Dingo]

I just got an e-mail from a mother who recently began doing torso rotation strength training with her daughter.


I just wanted to tell you that we started working on the machines about 2 months ago and at my daughters last xray her curve dropped from 13/14 degrees to 9 degrees.

I don't know if you remember our story. She started at 20 degrees 1 1/2 years ago. Exactly one year ago we got her into the spinecor brace. When fitted she went down to 14. Then 6 months ago at her appt. she measured at 13 degrees. At our appt. this last monday she measured at 9.

So, she's still wearing the spinecor (we go to montreal) and she wears it when she does the machines. We figured it helps her stay in the best starting position for the exercises. And she does them 2-3 times a week.

Our YMCA has cybex equipment and per Roger's recommendation, she does the Torso Rotation machine, the back extension machine and the seated cable row. We've added the leg press just for fun because she's a runner. She does 2 sets of 15 on each machine. Pretty simple.

[Ballet Mom]

Hi Dingo,

I think you need to be very careful with inferring any kind of causation of the curve reduction in your last post with these torso rotation exercises. The child is wearing a Spinecor brace and goes to Montreal where they usually utilize in-brace x-rays.

I myself have a hard time understanding a brace that is expected to reduce the in-brace curvature over a long period of time like the inventors expect the Spinecor to. The in-brace correction that happens very rapidly in other braces takes a very long time in the Spinecor and continues to occur, and what is the relationship to the out of brace curve size?

Something to take into consideration.

[rohrer01]

YouTube: MedX Torso Rotation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhJPxBQBCXA)

The exercise itself "looks" easy, but by the expression on that guy's face, I tell he was in some intense pain. :(

[hdugger]

The exercise itself "looks" easy, but by the expression on that guy's face, I tell he was in some intense pain. :(

He's doing 60lbs resistance. I don't think the scoliosis regime requires anything like that.

[Dingo]

Balletmom


I think you need to be very careful with inferring any kind of causation of the curve reduction in your last post with these torso rotation exercises. The child is wearing a Spinecor brace and goes to Montreal where they usually utilize in-brace x-rays.

It's impossible for me to know what caused the improvement or if there was any improvement at all. But I'm going to post all the data points.

[mamamax]

Balletmom



It's impossible for me to know what caused the improvement or if there was any improvement at all. But I'm going to post all the data points.

Hope you will keep them coming Dingo - they are important ;-) and thanks!

[Lorraine 1966]

The degree of curvature mentioned was minimal anyway. Keep em coming but don't let people with curves a lot larger like mine was become confused.

Lorraine.

[Dingo]

Mamamax

Will do! I believe that within 10 years TRS will be a mainstream therapy for Scoliosis. I'm doing my part to shave that down to 8 or 9 years. :)

TRS shows how Scoliosis can be treated and it provides compelling evidence of the cause. The muscles of the back or some related system are applying a destructive force to the spine as it grows.

Scoliosis is not primarily a bone disorder.
If Scoliosis was triggered by a bone disorder our children would have a high rate of other bone deformities. Any significant problem in the vertebrae are secondary to some other problem.

Here is an x-ray of a spine with Scoliosis.
X-ray spine (http://www.drnyman.com/images/xray_scoliosis_AP.JPG)

Here is an x-ray of a healthy foot.
X-ray foot (http://www.myfootshop.com/images/anatomy/x-ray_obl_foot_mod.jpg)

The bones of the foot are packed together much tighter than the spine. In addition our feet support more weight and absorb larger shocks than the spine. If Scoliosis was a bone disorder our children would suffer from other bone specific disease processes, especially in places like the feet.

I've never read a message from a mom who said that her child's spine had severe Scoliosis and her feet, hands or some other structure were equally deformed. It doesn't come up and I've never seen it mentioned in the literature.

[Ballet Mom]

Dr. Kiester believes that scoliosis is caused by tight ligaments at the back of the spine. He has stated that he has proven that beyond doubt.

Is there any chance that skevimc might comment as to whether these torso rotation exercises might be affecting those ligaments at the back of the spine and acting to stretch them out during the growth process?

Thanks!

[Dingo]

Ballet Mom

Yep, here is the original quote.

My interview with Dr. Douglas Kiester (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8948)


Dr. Kiester) Scoliosis is not just a lateral bending of the spine. It is a lateral bend linked with rotation. For rotation to occur there must be an axis of rotation in the midline. I proved this with growing rabbits and a dog while I was still in training. What happens is while the spine grows, the back of the spine is tethered by the ligaments, while the front (where the vertebral bodies are which support the weight) grows without restraints. Eventually there is too much length in the front, and very tight structures in the back. The spine then pops off to the side creating a spiral around the tight structures in the back (which stay almost straight). As such it is growth that powers the curve. If the posterior structures can be stretched-out by hormones of pregnancy, exercise, sleep, etc. or the anterior structure shorten by dehydration of the disk, aging, hormones, etc.; then the curve would be expected to improve. After a certain amount of curve, gravity prevents spontaneous correction.

I don't want to put words in Dr. Kiester's mouth but I think his research showed him the basic mechanics of how an unnatural force combined with growth can lead to Scoliosis. In this case tight ligaments pulled the spine out of alignment as it grew. But that wouldn't necessarily exclude other potential problems. Other factors (like muscles) that produced a similar force could in theory trigger similar results.

Another example might be a tumor. Isn't there a type of Scoliosis triggered by a tumor in the spine? The tumor creates a force that causes the spine to grow curved. Once the tumor is removed the spine attempts to grow correctly again.

[Dingo]

Yesterday I purchased a Cybex Eagle 4201 torso rotation machine for Scott. It cost $200.

It looks a lot like the machine in this video. In fact it probably is the same machine.

YouTube: Rotary Torso (Machine #18) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVCceRCz5cU)

We plan to use it 3 times per week, 3 sets each side. That's a total of 6 sets per workout.

[Ballet Mom]

Yesterday I purchased a Cybex Eagle 4201 torso rotation machine for Scott. It cost $200.

It looks a lot like the machine in this video. In fact it probably is the same machine.

YouTube: Rotary Torso (Machine #18) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVCceRCz5cU)

We plan to use it 3 times per week, 3 sets each side. That's a total of 6 sets per workout.

Wow, what a great price. I take it Scott is now big enough to use the machines okay?

Hope you prove the study true (even without a control)! Who wants to be the control anyway? :D

[Dingo]

Scott turns 7 on the 28th of this month and he is just old and large enough to use the machine properly.

I put a hard, flat piece of foam on the seat to raise him up to the correct level. I stand close behind (in fact touching) and spot him to make sure he moves smoothly.

I tested it on my 9 year old and he was big enough to use it without a spotter or foam. Fortunately he doesn't have Scoliosis.

I got the machine on Craigslist. It was a thirty minute drive to the seller's house but I couldn't beat the price. :)

[Dingo]

Scott has been doing torso rotation strength training for approximately 6 weeks.

Week 2) His back looked a little better
Week 4) A little more improvement
Week 6) Still more improvement

At first I wasn't sure if my eyes were playing tricks on me. However after 6 weeks I'm reasonably certain that his rotation and rib hump are smaller. It appears to be working just like the studies.

I'll be sure to post his x-rays after his next visit.

[titaniumed]

Dingo

Sounds great. Cant wait to see the x-rays.

Ed

[mamamax]

Wonderful news Dingo!! Congrats to you and Scott, makes my heart smile big & wishing you continued success :-)

[Still Hoping]

Your posts here are very helpful. Do you know anything about exercises that strengthen the muscles that run on either side of the spine? I saw a video that clearly shows these muscles but now I can't remember where I saw it (so much information!). Makes sense to me that if these are strengthened, they would support the spine in a balanced manner, maybe reducing further increases. Can you help? Thanks!:confused:

[Ballet Mom]

Wonderful Dingo! :)

My daughter also went through periods when her back looked worse. All I could figure was that a big growth spurt had taken place which caused some tightening of ligaments (i.e Dr. Kiester's theory) due to the growth. And then as the growth slowed down, her stretching and exercise in ballet was able to help stretch the ligaments out sufficiently again. It happened time and time again. Just conjecture on my part, but no one else knows either...heh.

Now that her growth seems to be significantly slowed or stopping, her back looks great.

It would be interesting to hear what's going on with Dr. Kiester and his research these days.

[Dingo]

BalletMom

Funny you should mention growth spurt. Scott grew a lot over the past 6 months. He's getting tall and skinny.

[Dingo]

Still Hoping


Your posts here are very helpful. Do you know anything about exercises that strengthen the muscles that run on either side of the spine? I saw a video that clearly shows these muscles but now I can't remember where I saw it (so much information!). Makes sense to me that if these are strengthened, they would support the spine in a balanced manner, maybe reducing further increases.

I believe the paraspinal muscles are activated by the Superman exercise. Have your daughter try this exercise and feel her back muscles. It's easy to do and it really works them.
YouTube: How to Do Superman Exercises (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc6UVRS7PW4)

However torso rotation is the exercise that was found to be helpful in the studies.
This is a video of the Cybex machine my 7 year old uses. He sits on a square foam pad to bring him up to the correct height.
Rotary Torso (Machine #18) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVCceRCz5cU)

It cost $200 used and it only takes a few minutes per week. The machine sits next to the computer and Scott watches Pokemon vidoes on YouTube between sets. :) We call it our "YouTube" exercises.

The other day I got to learn about Mudkip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J78N12EoR8). :)

[Dingo]

Another 3 weeks or so has gone by and I believe Scott's curve is almost completely gone. It was 13/14 at his last visit. I would guess that it's 5 degrees or possibly less today. His rib hump and rotation are still very evident but both have diminished since Torso Rotation began. I assume (more accurately pray) that his rib hump and rotation will continue to improve. Perhaps they respond at a slower rate. In any case we've only been at this 9 or 10 weeks.

I'll post his next set of X-rays but that's going to be a while.

[Dingo]

Scott has been doing torso rotation strength training for approximately 3 months. I am now comfortable saying that his Scoliosis is cured. He started with a 13/14 degree thorocolumbar curve that was visible as a "kink" in the middle of his back. Today his spine is straight. As I mentioned before he still has some rotation but that appears to be slowly improving each week.

In late September 2011 Scott will go in for his 8 year old x-rays. I will get his complete series of x-rays (5, 6, 7 & 8) and post them here as well as on a website I plan to make to document Scott's rapid improvement with TRS.

Very special thanks goes out to Dr. Mooney, Dr. McIntire and all of the scientists who produced the research on TRS. Without their hard work I would have had no idea how to help my son.

[mamamax]

Congratulations to you and Scott!!! Hard to find words to express the joy of hearing this. The word miracle, comes to mind. Are you planing a maintenance schedule?

[Ballet Mom]

That is such great news Dingo! I'm so happy for you and Scott!!

I'm glad to hear that you will continue with Scott's x-rays because it's possible the rotation may have been reduced and the curve might still be there. Hopefully that's not the case and the curve is completely gone, but you don't know until you get the x-ray.

My daughter also had rotation and a curve that you could see, but at this point you can't tell she has scoliosis, her curve is not visible and her rotation is non-existent....but her curve is still there! Are you still going to continue with the rotation exercises? I sure think that would be a good idea until you get the next x-ray, another growth spurt may be on its way.

It would really be fabulous if this torso rotation exercise really had a positive effect on scoliosis. I can hardly wait to hear the results when more studies are completed.

Thanks for putting this thread together and keeping it alive!

[Dingo]

Mamamax


The word miracle, comes to mind.

You are right. As most people on this board know Dr. Mooney died in a car crash not long ago. If he had died before his first study was published in 2000 none of this would have been possible. His work made a huge difference.

Should I meet him in the afterlife I plan to shake his hand. 8-)

[tonibunny]

This is very encouraging Dingo, well done and I hope Scott maintains his correction :)

[Ballet Mom]

Mamamax



You are right. As most people on this board know Dr. Mooney died in a car crash not long ago. If he had died before his first study was published in 2000 none of this would have been possible. His work made a huge difference.

Should I meet him in the afterlife I plan to shake his hand. 8-)

:-)

God bless Dr. Mooney.

[Dingo]

Ballet Mom

Don't worry about Scott. His parents (especially me) are maniacs. 8-)
Scott will be on physical therapy and probably doctor visits until his 17th birthday. After his spine is done growing it's up to him.

In Scott's case he started with a bad rotation and a mild curve. Over several years both slowly progressed. When his curve was 10/11 I couldn't see it unless I looked carefully. By the time it hit 13/14 I could easily see the bend in the middle of his back. Today it's straight although an x-ray might be able to spot something under the skin. I considered scheduling another x-ray just to confirm what 90 days of therapy can do but I decided Scott didn't need the extra radiation. I'll wait until his next checkup. Hopefully his rotation will continue to improve which will make his next x-ray even better.

BTW your personal mailbox is full. I couldn't reply to your last message. 8-)

[Dingo]

tonibunny

Only time will tell but I'm optimistic. Scott and I did about 2 years of strength training and nightly stretching. Sometimes I thought his back was getting better, sometimes I didn't. During the second half of this year it started to look like it was slowly progressing. At his checkup my fears were confirmed. Despite our best efforts it was gradually getting worse.

When we started TRS the improvement wasn't slow or ambiguous. After two weeks of therapy his back looked better. Every week he had more improvement. Three months later and it's visibly straight from every angle. I don't know why TRS helps but it must hit the problem directly. The fact that Scott is young and "spongy" might also be in his favor. Also Scott has a thorocolumbar curve and if I remember correctly Dr. McIntire wrote that those curves appeared to respond the best to TRS.

[tonibunny]

I really do hope his next x-rays confirm what you're seeing Dingo. It's very encouraging that you feel he's straighter! Have you ever taken a reading of his rotation using a Scoliometer? The spine can move more in the lumbar region than it does in the thoracic region, so maybe that's why it appears to be helping Scott. It really would be excellent news if this sort of cheap, easily available method could be proven without doubt to help smaller scoliosis curves.

[Dingo]

tonibunny

I've never had Scott's back measured with a Scolimeter.

I think it was Scott's 6 year old visit when the doctor specifically examined his rotation. The doctor asked Scott to lean over for the Adam's Bend test and when he did his eyes grew and he said something like, "Whoah.... there it is". He didn't measure his rotation with a device but I could tell he thought it was bad. Compared to the size of Scott's lateral curve his rotation is a magnitude bigger. In fact I think it's pulled on his chest and brought it in a bit. My hope is that TRS and the other exercises we do will eventually correct that part.

If it's going to work for anybody it's Scott because we are dedicated. In 3 months of TRS I think we've missed 1 day. It's easy to be consistent with the machine at the house.

[Still Hoping]

Dear Dingo,

Your posts are so helpful, positive and full of valuable information. Your posts have influenced me a great deal. I am looking to add something new to help my daughter's spine. You wrote that your son uses a balance board. Is this the "Core Wobble and Balance Board" at GoFit.net? I ask so that I'm sure. I tried the link a couple times and it did not work. I finally got to a website, though.

If it is, it looks very difficult to use! Probably do my core some good, too! I am ready to buy it if this is the one you use. Where did you even get the idea from? Is it from your own internet research? Do you have a great physical therapist helping?

It is great that Scott has such good motivation! My daughter needs a lot of prodding.
Please keep us up to date on Scott's progress. I am so happy for you both! Thank you Dingo.





Yep, we use this balance board (http://www.gofit.net/site/gofit/product/161?link_id=68&link_section_id=63) 15 minutes per day. He does it while he watches SpongeBob. His record has increased to about 10 seconds without tipping. He usually lasts about 2 to 5 seconds at a time. If nothing else this works his core muscles and it's better than lying on the couch. :)

[Dingo]

Hi Still Hoping,

Dang! I guess the link has died.

Here is the balance board we use.
Core Wobble & Balance Board (http://www.gofit.net/balance-board.php)

I got the idea after reading that the nervous system (which appears to be the trigger for Scoliosis) could potentially be retrained. I also found this anecdote from the 19th century interesting.

The 19th Century Debate on Clothing as a Cause of Scoliosis (http://www.uihealthcare.com/depts/medmuseum/wallexhibits/scoliosis/history/debate.html)


Lewis A. Sayre, an orthopedist, studied patients from upper and lower socioeconomic levels. He found that abnormal spinal development was not often seen in girls from lower income families. These girls did not wear corsets; instead, they carried bundles on their heads, which forced them to stand very straight. This balancing act, Sayre concluded, helped these girls develop healthy spines.

Scott enjoys the balance board and we still do it whenever he feels like it. However we ultimately settled on torso rotation supplemented by standard physical therapy at home. It wasn't until we started TRS that I saw clear and steady improvement in Scott's spine.

From my reading I've come to the conclusion that any physical therapy helps kids with Scoliosis. However standard PT might not be enough to stop or reverse curve progression. It's been my experience that TRS is different. Somehow it directly attacks the problem.

We don't have a physical therapist. Everything we do comes from studies found on the internet.

[Still Hoping]

Thanks so much Dingo. I love your posts! We have been meaning to enroll all of the family in the gym I go to. It has a torso rotation machine, I'm not sure what brand. But I use it and maybe it will help my daughter. I hope it can't hurt. I have been looking for a MedEx or Cybex machine online, but haven't found anything under $3000! I will keep looking.

I took my daughter to the CLEAR Institute in Green Bay for their 2 wk. intensive treatment and the jury is still out on that. We are having her XRayed again in Jan. Then it will be a good 6 months & it seems like we will know definitively by then if it is helping. But I know she needs more and I am looking at Torso Rotation (largely thanks to you!) and then possibly Schroth exercises or clinic.

Interestingly, one of the tenets of CLEAR is getting the patients on a balancing disc with a weight on one side. They say that this "retrains" the neuromuscular systems of the body to accept the corrected position. ( There is much info on their protocol online, & it would be worded so much better! ). Hmmm, maybe there is more evidence of this balancing possibly working. Hope so. It just doesn't require nearly as much skill or concentration as that board would. So maybe she can try that. Hope so!

It seems like the entire responsibility for managing the overwhelming technicalities of their child's health care falls to the parents. I have a hard time just collating all the info, researching it, creating a coherent record of all of it and then finding it later! I have as yet not met any professional who manages a multi-pronged approach or keeps records of it. I am (trying) to document my CLEAR experiences on a new thread in the parents area, if anyone is interested in CLEAR.

Anyway, sorry for rambling on. Your info is very helpful. I am going to explore that balance board. Thanks.

[Dingo]

Interestingly, one of the tenets of CLEAR is getting the patients on a balancing disc with a weight on one side. They say that this "retrains" the neuromuscular systems of the body to accept the corrected position.

I don't know if there are any studies to confirm that but it's certainly possible. The nervous system does appear to have the ability to reorganize itself.


I have been looking for a MedEx or Cybex machine online, but haven't found anything under $3000! I will keep looking.

Check craigslist. Every few days I scoured all of the exercise equipment (even equipment not listed as torso rotation) and I found one almost every week. Many times the equipment was part of a bulk sale and torso rotation wasn't even in the title of the ad. Admittedly I live in the Phoenix Metro area which is a very large city. It might be harder in a smaller city.

When I saw the ad for $200 I jumped. I found a ton in the $500 range +/-.

I remember finding one cheap machine (it might have been less than $200) but it worked in reverse. Instead of the torso twisting, the legs and waist twisted. I didn't buy it because that's not the type of motion used in the study. The Cybex I bought twists just like the Medex machine. Our machine is in great shape and it still has a sticker on it from the Scottsdale Memorial Hospital which is where it must have started out.

IMHO having the machine at home makes all the difference in the world.

[mamamax]

Dingo - just curious, was there any need for your machine to be re-calibrated or anything?

[Dingo]

Mamamax


Dingo - just curious, was there any need for your machine to be re-calibrated or anything?

Nope. I loaded it into the back of my truck, hauled it home, dragged it into my house and set it up. Setting it up probably took an hour but it was straightforward and didn't require any special tools. I think all that I used was an Allen wrench.

[mamamax]

thanks Dingo - good to know!

[Anna's mom]

Hi! I am new to this forum. My 11 yr old daugher was dx'd 3/10 with scoliosis that ended up progressing 7-8 degrees in 4 months. She is now 12 and FT bracing was prescribed in 12/10. Her original curves were T13 L20 and progressed to T21 and L27. Got a 2nd opinion and this ortho doc was not a big fan of bracing, but offered no other suggestions. (Ugh!) Considered going to a chiropractor but was a bit skeptical after the appt. Ended up scouring the web looking for direction and was very frustrated for a while. This forum has been the biggest help! It is so nice to be able to share infor w/ others in the same situation! LOVE the idea of torso rotation exercise. Very encouraged by the research articles I've read about it! Discovered that the Urban Active fitness center 1 mile from our house has a torso rotation machine (non-computerized). There is a PT dept. right in the facility as well. The PT has done some research on his own, read the articles by Dr. Mooney I gave him, and has devised a torso strength training plan for my daughter! Very blessed to have found a PT willing to learn all of this right along w/ us!

We are also trying 2mg of melatonin every night as well. When I read about a possible connection between melatonin and curve progression, I couldn't believe it. I've often thought that my daughter might be deficient in melatonin--getting her to sleep at night has always been tough. On the rare occasion that we would give her a melatonin, she would fall asleep easily.
So...this is what we are trying for my daughter:
1) melatonin before bed each night in hopes of preventing further assymetrical development of the paraspinal muscles (we are making the assumption that she is deficient in melatonin and our pediatrician didn't see a problem giving it to her each night).
2) torso rotation strength training to even out the assymetrical strength of paraspinal muscles, and to hopefully prevent further assymetrical development.
I will keep you posted on her (hopefully lack of) progress(ion)!!

[Anna's mom]

My daughter went to the ortho doc in April and her curves are stable!! Her numbers actually went down 1-3 degrees in each of her curves but since that is within the margin of error, the doc said she is stable. We were so happy since at her previous visit she had progressed 7-8 degrees. Been religiously doing TRS twice a week.

[mamamax]

Anna's Mom - Very encouraging results. Congratulations!

[Dingo]

I just conducted an interview with one of the nation's top Scoliosis experts. (you can read it here (http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?12810-Dr.-Douglas-Kiester-discusses-MAGEC-Remote-Control-Spinal-Deformity-System)) After the interview we had an exchange about torso rotation that I found helpful so I'm going to include it here.

Question) Your answer on the ineffectiveness of traction and exercise got me thinking.

"Again, exercising for hours at a time is no match for the braces on your teeth that are constantly pulling."

You are absolutely correct. When my son does torso rotation exercises he performs 3 sets of 15 on each side. The total time he spends exercising is literally a couple of minutes. I don't see how that small amount of stretching could make much difference. Could torso rotation work because of some sort of secondary action? For instance maybe this type of exercise releases hormones that stretch the ligaments in the spine? Maybe some other secondary effect? But you're right, a few minutes of exercise probably isn't enough to have a direct impact on the ligaments.

Dr. Kiester) Reasonably directed exercise is of huge impact which is why the immobilization of body bracing has such negative effects. The amount the ligaments have to stretch to stop the progression of the curve is surprisingly small. Thus a little exercise of an effective kind may even result in some reversal of the deformity. Doing a moderate force of continuous stretching (like putting braces on teeth) is when the goal is complete or near complete restitution of the normal anatomy.

[Anna's mom]

Thanks for the information! Very encouraging for us! At her previous visit, her numbers remained stable. Due to go back this month and the doc said if she is stable at this next appt. we will decrease the frequency of her f/u appts.
So far, it just seems like TRS is working for us. I find it interesting that my daughter progressed 7-8 degrees in a 4 mo. period of time and then after we began TRS 2x/wk, she's remained stable for 9 months.

[Dingo]

Thanks for the information! Very encouraging for us! At her previous visit, her numbers remained stable. Due to go back this month and the doc said if she is stable at this next appt. we will decrease the frequency of her f/u appts.
So far, it just seems like TRS is working for us. I find it interesting that my daughter progressed 7-8 degrees in a 4 mo. period of time and then after we began TRS 2x/wk, she's remained stable for 9 months.

WOW! You just made my day! I am so happy for your daughter. Keep up the good work!

Scott started about 13 months ago and he's been stable over that period. I hope to do even better this year. At only 8 years old he's so small that he barely fits into the machine.

On Saturday we are going to start a "3 count" (1... 2... 3...) at the top of each rep to increase the time his back is stretched.

[Anna's mom]

WOW! You just made my day! I am so happy for your daughter. Keep up the good work!

Scott started about 13 months ago and he's been stable over that period. I hope to do even better this year. At only 8 years old he's so small that he barely fits into the machine.

On Saturday we are going to start a "3 count" (1... 2... 3...) at the top of each rep to increase the time his back is stretched.

Anna will turn 13 this month. She was diagnosed at age 11. At each session, we do 15 reps (on the torso rotation machine) on each side four times. We just went w/ the gym's PT's recommendations for strength training those muscles and general use of the machine. She started at 20lbs 12 months ago and now is doing 30 lbs. She also uses the Roman chair 2x a week.
Hope things continue to go well w/ your son!!

[AMom]

Hi Anna's Mom and Dingo,

It looks as though your children have been stable for 9 & 13 months using TRS. My daughter has been stable for 8 months (before that she had a double digit jump in her numbers between x-rays). It is interesting that the lumbar curves are responding to this exercise--I didn't expect that to happen because of the motion involved, did either of you?

Anna's Mom, you said you are using a unit at the gym, may I ask what is the brand? And is your daughter doing any abdominal work? My daughter only fits into her unit with modifications to foot rests, seat, hip area, & seat back, so we could not have used one at the gym even if there had been one available. I am so glad your daughter is able to use the one you found.

Dingo, I think you mentioned purchasing a Cybex in an earlier post (was it the Eagle or the other one?), is that what you are currently using? I really like the idea of the "+3 count" at the top of the rotation. And, thanks for posting your interview regarding the growth rod. Though it will be too late for my daughter, it seems as though it has the potential to do a lot of good for many children.

Since my daughter (just turned 12) is using a MedX, it would be great if all three of us were using a different version of torso rotation machines, yet still getting similar results.
Warm up
Roman chair 20 reps
Rotation 20 reps each side
Stretches & Exercises
Ice pack

Positive or negative, I'll post the results of my daughter's next x-rays (scheduled in 3.5 months). Will you both please do the same?

Thanks!

[Anna's mom]

Hi Anna's Mom and Dingo,

It looks as though your children have been stable for 9 & 13 months using TRS. My daughter has been stable for 8 months (before that she had a double digit jump in her numbers between x-rays). It is interesting that the lumbar curves are responding to this exercise--I didn't expect that to happen because of the motion involved, did either of you?

Anna's Mom, you said you are using a unit at the gym, may I ask what is the brand? And is your daughter doing any abdominal work? My daughter only fits into her unit with modifications to foot rests, seat, hip area, & seat back, so we could not have used one at the gym even if there had been one available. I am so glad your daughter is able to use the one you found.

Dingo, I think you mentioned purchasing a Cybex in an earlier post (was it the Eagle or the other one?), is that what you are currently using? I really like the idea of the "+3 count" at the top of the rotation. And, thanks for posting your interview regarding the growth rod. Though it will be too late for my daughter, it seems as though it has the potential to do a lot of good for many children.

Since my daughter (just turned 12) is using a MedX, it would be great if all three of us were using a different version of torso rotation machines, yet still getting similar results.
Warm up
Roman chair 20 reps
Rotation 20 reps each side
Stretches & Exercises
Ice pack

Positive or negative, I'll post the results of my daughter's next x-rays (scheduled in 3.5 months). Will you both please do the same?

Thanks!

Yes, I would love to maintain a dialog w/ you both regarding TRS! The machine Anna is using is a very basic non-computerized Cybex machine. It is just like the other weight machines in the gym as it uses the "inserting the pin into the weight" system. (Don't know what the official name is! :)) Because of this, we cannot increase her weight load only 1-2 lbs at a time. Instead we have to increase it 5lbs at a time but she will only do say 8 reps at the new "challenge" weight and then for the rest of the reps/sets revert back to the original weight. For example, right now she is doing 1 set at 35 lbs and the other three sets at 30 lbs. Originally our PT had given us some abdominal exercises, planks, etc. to do at home, but honestly all we have really kept up with are the gym exercises (torso machine and roman chair). The one exception being that she does do seated chair twists at home a couple times a week. As far as her abs go, Anna says that the torso rotation machine works her abs.
One other thing we started doing after her progression was that she started taking melatonin 3mg every night before bed. We had thought that she could be deficient and had read a study that linked melatonin deficiency and curve progression. With nothing to lose, we decided to try that also!

AMom, I was curious, your child is not in a brace, correct? Also, it sounds like the double digit curve increase your daughter experienced happen while doing TRS, right? I'm so sorry that happened. What are her measurements now? Is she nearing the end of her growth period? My daughter should have one more year to go.

Dingo, thanks for posting the interview and starting the conversation. It is because of your posts that we even tried TRS.
Thank you both for posting all of your information! Anna is due to go back to the doc this month and I will let you know how the appt. goes!

[Dingo]

Hi Anna's Mom and Dingo,

It looks as though your children have been stable for 9 & 13 months using TRS. My daughter has been stable for 8 months (before that she had a double digit jump in her numbers between x-rays). It is interesting that the lumbar curves are responding to this exercise--I didn't expect that to happen because of the motion involved, did either of you?

Anna's Mom, you said you are using a unit at the gym, may I ask what is the brand? And is your daughter doing any abdominal work? My daughter only fits into her unit with modifications to foot rests, seat, hip area, & seat back, so we could not have used one at the gym even if there had been one available. I am so glad your daughter is able to use the one you found.

Dingo, I think you mentioned purchasing a Cybex in an earlier post (was it the Eagle or the other one?), is that what you are currently using? I really like the idea of the "+3 count" at the top of the rotation. And, thanks for posting your interview regarding the growth rod. Though it will be too late for my daughter, it seems as though it has the potential to do a lot of good for many children.

Since my daughter (just turned 12) is using a MedX, it would be great if all three of us were using a different version of torso rotation machines, yet still getting similar results.
Warm up
Roman chair 20 reps
Rotation 20 reps each side
Stretches & Exercises
Ice pack

Positive or negative, I'll post the results of my daughter's next x-rays (scheduled in 3.5 months). Will you both please do the same?

Thanks!

Hi AMom!

Actually I would have expected at least "some" benefit to the lumbar region. The Med-X clamps down the hips because the lower back is strong and wants to do the work during a rotation. The clamp helps to reduce that.

My son uses a Cybex Eagle just like the machine in this video. Rotary Torso (Machine #18) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVCceRCz5cU) I purchased it used off craigslist for I think a little over a hundred bucks. It's not nearly as good as the Med-X but Scott is too small to fit into a Med-X. But it's nice to have it in the house.

I'm glad you liked the links in this thread. I hoped they would help other kids. When I learned about TRS I realized that scientists were onto something big. But scientists spend their time doing science, not getting the word out to patients. The internet is the perfect medium for information like this. Without it I would have been lost.

Scott gets his next checkup in about a year. I'll certainly post our results!

[Dingo]

Yes, I would love to maintain a dialog w/ you both regarding TRS! The machine Anna is using is a very basic non-computerized Cybex machine. It is just like the other weight machines in the gym as it uses the "inserting the pin into the weight" system. (Don't know what the official name is! :)) Because of this, we cannot increase her weight load only 1-2 lbs at a time. Instead we have to increase it 5lbs at a time but she will only do say 8 reps at the new "challenge" weight and then for the rest of the reps/sets revert back to the original weight. For example, right now she is doing 1 set at 35 lbs and the other three sets at 30 lbs. Originally our PT had given us some abdominal exercises, planks, etc. to do at home, but honestly all we have really kept up with are the gym exercises (torso machine and roman chair). The one exception being that she does do seated chair twists at home a couple times a week. As far as her abs go, Anna says that the torso rotation machine works her abs.
One other thing we started doing after her progression was that she started taking melatonin 3mg every night before bed. We had thought that she could be deficient and had read a study that linked melatonin deficiency and curve progression. With nothing to lose, we decided to try that also!

AMom, I was curious, your child is not in a brace, correct? Also, it sounds like the double digit curve increase your daughter experienced happen while doing TRS, right? I'm so sorry that happened. What are her measurements now? Is she nearing the end of her growth period? My daughter should have one more year to go.

Dingo, thanks for posting the interview and starting the conversation. It is because of your posts that we even tried TRS.
Thank you both for posting all of your information! Anna is due to go back to the doc this month and I will let you know how the appt. goes!

Anna's mom

We had the same issue on weight adjustment on the Cybex. Because of that I keep several 1 and 2 pound dumbbells near our machine. When I want to increase the weight by a pound I just pop a 1 pound dumbbell on top of the stack. That's how Scott does 14 pounds. Otherwise he could only go up by factors of 10. At age 8 that isn't going to happen, hehe.

I'm so glad you guys found this thread. If it helps even one other kid it was worth posting it.

[Dingo]

I just want to add that scientists can't definitively prove why torso rotation works. It was initially thought that TRS fixed the strength asymmetry associated with Scoliosis. But the latest research suggests that kids with Scoliosis might not suffer from any significant strength asymmetry.

Electromyographic Analysis of Paravertebral Muscles in Patients with Idiopathic Scoliosis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21325929)


CONCLUSION
In the experimental conditions of this study, there are no differences in electromyographic amplitudes of erector spinae muscles between the concave and convex sides of the curvature apex in patients with idiopathic scoliosis and control volunteers.

So now I'm leaning pretty heavily towards Dr. Kiester's explanation. By a stroke of luck TRS stretches the ligaments that drive curve progression. Traction and stretching are not effective treatments for Scoliosis but somehow the weight combined with the twisting motion of TRS gets the job done.

Scott uses the 45 degree setting. Not too long ago I noticed that increasing this to 60 and 75 degrees did NOT increase the stretch. However twisting past the center point (the 0 degree mark) rapidly increased the stretch. You can test this by turning your body.

A) Turn to the right a full 90 degrees. Now rotate back to 0 degrees and look straight forward. Even though you started at 90 degrees you don't get much stretch.
B) Turn to the right just 30 degrees. Now rotate back to 0 degrees and then continue rotating even further to the left. By the time you get to -20 or -30 degrees the stretch is substantial.

A wide start point like 90 degrees doesn't add much to the stretch. In fact it might it might screw up your form. However rotating PAST the center point even if it's by just a few degrees creates an immediate stretch you can feel.

I'd be curious to know what a therapist thinks about this.

[AMom]

Dingo,

Wow, a year between doctor visits. We had that long between visits when she was 7 & 8 and then we had to go to 6 months between visits. When her curve started to progress really fast, we were changed to 4 months between visits. Since her curve has been holding steady for 8 months, the ortho agreed to let us go back to every 6 months.

I agree, it is convenient to have the equipment in the house. We have a PT who helped us with the additional Stretches & Exercises, but I think of them as being support for the MedX & Roman Chair--not as the primary workout.

I am so glad I found you two. I was certain there were other families using TRS, but still felt alone. It is nice to see what others are doing. It is even better to see similar results.

Anna's Mom,

Thank you for telling me about the melatonin, I will look it up.

No, my daughter has never been braced. And I am sorry for being unclear earlier, she has not had any increase in her curves since she began TRS. The last curve increased in the period BEFORE she begin using MedX. Her current curves are T34 & L20. She just turned 12 and has yet to begin her menarche so she isn't finished growing.

When she first started using the MedX & Roman Chair, she could only move 8lbs and was working at a 75 degree angle. We had to add very small weights to increases her workout. Now she can easily handle the 2lb increases and is at 45 degrees on the chair. I don't have any experience at a gym, so I don't know if they will allow you to bring in your own weights so your daughter can increase her workout gradually.

So your daughter is using the Cybex. When she rotates, does her upper body turn or her lower body?

Good luck on her upcoming x-ray. I hope TRS continues to hold the curve.

[Anna's mom]

AMom,
Thanks for clarifying your previous post! I breathed a sigh of relief! Sounds like we are in similar situations...12yr old daughters whose progression appears to have stopped after starting TRS!! Just to let you know, my daughter is one year post-menarche. She had her progression just prior to her menarche.

Here is the thread where I found the melatonin information. Thank you Dingo for starting yet another very useful thread!!

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?8640-Melatonin-may-help-mild-Scoliosis&highlight=melatonin+may+help+mild+scoliosis

Our daughter has always had problems going to sleep at night. We often joked about her possibly being melatonin deficient long before reading the above! Even if it does nothing for her scoliosis, it has improved her (and our) quality of life!

In regard to your question about whether her upper or lower body turns during rotation, it is her upper body. She makes every effort to immobilize her pelvis like they say to do in the studies. The only hip immobilizer our Cybex machine has is a padded area on the inside of her knees. She is to keep her knees firmly squeezed against the pad in order to make sure she is engaging her back muscles. We do our best.

I prayed and prayed for an alternative treatment for my daughter and I feel this is an answer to my prayers. I am so glad to find you and Dingo to compare notes with. I will let you know how my daughter's appt. on the 19th goes!

[AMom]

Anna's Mom,

Thank you for sharing the link, research is easier when I have a place to begin.

This means all three of our children are utilizing the same motion during TRS, two on Cybex Eagle & one on MedX. I had been wondering about the ROM setting, we didn't receive clear instructions on that. One of Dingo's recent posts addresses the issue of starting points. Our machine is marked 5,4,3,2,1,0,1,2,3,4,5. She had tried starting at -0-, but even after a month was unable to maintain good positioning so she went to -1- on each side. After several months passed, she moved to -2- on each side, and she just moved to -3- on each side this week. The machine doesn't mention the angle each number represents, but Mooney's article states the angle is increased by 18 degrees, so if the MedX units are similar, then she began at 0, 18, 36, & is now rotating at 54 degrees. Their research only measured strengths at those angles.

[Dingo]

AMom

Is your MedX machine the same as in this video? MedX Torso Rotation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhJPxBQBCXA)
That machine looks amazing.

The Cybex Eagle has 5 starting positions for each direction.

30 degrees, 45, 60, 75 and 90.

We've used from 30 to 75 but for Scott 45 degrees seems to works best. 30 is good too.

If 0 degrees is straight forward we twist past to about -15 degrees +/-. A little past straight forward is the top point for our movement.

[Anna's mom]

I am not sure the angle or degree of movement for Anna. Our machine is also labeled 5-4-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-4-5. She keeps the machine at "4" which starts her movement past the mid-point on one side and then she rotates past the mid-point and over to the other side as far as she is comfortable. For example, if her starting point is a little to the right of the mid-point and then she will rotate to the left as far as she can go.
Not sure how many degrees this translates into. I guess I should ask our PT at the gym!

[AMom]

Dingo,

The prior version has an overhead cam, there is no way she can fit into the older version today, even w/ modifications and her added height.

Yes, the video clip shows what our machine looks like. (To see it without a body blocking the components, type MedX Limited and click on the one that says MedXonline.com.) No matter what we tried, we couldn't stabilize her pelvis until Feb 2011. The problem is the pads that come down on the thighs & shins. That portion of the machine slides forward toward the seat, but is doesn't come forward enough for a child. Even with foot rests and every other part fitted for her, the thigh pads would apply pressure only on her knees, which would have caused damage. We tried to modify it and several other restraint systems, but couldn't get them to work. --Until her legs (thighs) grew long enough to fit into that part of the machine, we simply had to wait it out.--

Since I know you've seen it, I can describe what has been changed.
Vertical back pads: These were remade 5" thicker
Horizontal hip pads: These were remade thicker as well
Seat: Several additional seats were made of various thicknesses so they can be traded out as she grows
Foot rests: This was made quite a bit thicker as well--I'm not in the room, but I think it was 5" also
Weight Stack: This has a counter balance on it to allow her to use the machine in the very beginning--when she couldn't move it even unweighted.

We will have to have a new set of thinner back & hip pads made w/in the next 6 months--she is growing that fast. I had thought she could stay in the back & hip pads and just move the leg restraints & foot rests away from the seat, but I didn't allow for the space between the back pad and where her arms grip the vertical rolls/ pads. It is getting snug on her arms.

To see the Variable Angle Roman Chair type in BackStrong VARC. Sorry, I don't know how to insert a link.

My PT and I have been discussing the MedX Lumbar unit, trying to decide if it will be helpful. Some of the offices scattered throughout the USA have been using them, but I can't get a good read on the results. I just looked at the Main Line Health & Fitness Link and see they are using it as well. Does anyone know what their protocols are? They are claiming they are getting a 50% reduction, but do not mention the size of the curves they are starting with or how long they are holding the curve reductions. We are in CA, so I can't go see their work. I will contact them by phone & email if you folks don't already have the info available.

[AMom]

Anna's Mom,

For the purpose of the child understanding when the motion is complete, our PT has us only increase the pin when she can make the full rotation. Otherwise, my daughter would make "short" rotations more often than not. I think you said your daughter is almost 13, so she probably pays more attention to her rotations.

I just checked and "Fit Strength" online shows all of the MedX exercise equipment both with a person using them and the empty machine. This is a place that sells the equipment, not a PT office, but the pix are clear so maybe it will be useful. The "medical" versions take readings and cost $xx,xxx.xx a lot of money. We use the "exercise" version.

[Anna's mom]

Thanks AMom! I will check it out!
Although so far so good w/ what we are doing w/ the Cybex at our gym. :) I am still very interested in taking a look at the MedX, though. I'd like to get a feel for how others are executing the exercise! Thanks!

[AMom]

Anna's Mom,

Opps! I meant to address the Rotation info to YOU and the Pix to DINGO because he had asked which model we are using. I was not trying to suggest you (or anyone else) should change what you are doing. I had the impression that he was doing what I did when I read his son used the Cybex. --I looked up the machines to see how it stabalized the pelvis, how the body moved, and how comparable it was to what we are doing. I want to understand what he means when he says, "xyz rotations" etc. That also explains why I sent the info on the VARC. I am NOT suggesting it, just making the info available in case either of you want to see it and understand what I am talking about.

By the way, how do you insert a link to another article?

[Anna's mom]

AMom,
I didn't take your post in that way at all! I love the information!
As far as inserting a link, I just cut and paste...you could also try using the attachment icon when you reply to the thread!

[Dingo]

AMom

Do you own your MedX machine?

Dang I wish they'd produce a smaller version for kids. CYBEX Eagle.... basically same problem. It takes 2 spotters to keep Scott moving smooth.

[Anna's mom]

I have never seen this machine before...I would guess this would isolate the lumbar area a little better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oFRBqHHnns&feature=related

[AMom]

Anna's Mom,

Sorry to be obtuse, but what do I cut & paste? Can I take it from the body of the article or does it need to come from the box at the top of the screen?

Dingo,

Yes, we purchased the machine. Though I found one an hour & a half from my home in a doctor’s office, it would not have been practical (gas, time, & cost) to go there 2x a week for 5 years. It was easier and substantially less expensive all the way around to buy a demo in our situation. (It helped that we were able to use our medical account to purchase the unit-- hooray for tax-free dollars!) I thought we'd be able to find a VARC we could use locally, but was unsuccessful, so I bought that piece as well. I have to admit, if we decide to purchase the lumbar unit, space may become an issue.

As you know, there are advantages to having the equipment "in house." For instance, we can plan the workouts around our schedule, make simple adjustments to the timing of the workouts to allow for school functions & family vacations, start using the unit sooner because we are able to customize it, and in the long run it will cost a lot less than paying to use a doctor's unit. (There are no units available in a gym in our area.) Between her growth & the modifications to the equipment, I do not have to spot her during her workout.

The workout can take as long as an hour & fifteen minutes (if I also count the PT to address surrounding issues & icing) or as short as 30 minutes if we just do the warm-up, VARC, MedX, & icing. Even though my children are extremely active in school functions and extracurricular activities, 1 ½ to 4 hours a week is no big deal. (My comment made me curious if we were really as consistent as I thought we were so I just went & flipped through the last ten months of PT notes and found she has missed less than 1% of her workouts due to illness, school, & vacation.)

She was often tired when she had to sit or stand still for long periods of time, but the PT has strengthen her body enough so that is no longer an issue. (She has always been involved in dance, riding, swimming, & general play, but that didn’t seem to make any difference.) Improving her quality of life is reason enough to continue the program; the possibility that it might hold the curve is a bonus. Other than make her feel *comfortable, there is nothing else we can do to help her at this time.

*Since her curve has not increased during the last eight months, bracing is not appropriate and her curve is too small to require surgery. (Yes, her ortho is surprised her curve quit growing during the middle of her growth spurt.)

WOW! I sure talk a lot.

[Anna's mom]

AMom,
I'm certainly no expert, but the way I insert a link is by right clicking on the URL address and clicking "copy" and then going back to my post and right click again and this time selecting "paste". Another way is to left click on the body of an article until what you want to transfer is highlighted in blue, then right click and choose "copy", and proceed to "paste" in the same way as above.
I hope I answered your question!

[Dingo]

Here is an interesting read on what exercise does to ligaments and tendons. This directly applies to Dr. Kiester's theory on why Torso Rotation works.

Tendon and ligament adaptation to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization (http://www.rehab.research.va.gov/jour/00/37/2/wren2.html)


While experimental studies have clearly shown that tendons and ligaments respond to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization, no theory has yet been established to explain these responses. This study attempts to establish such a theory. We apply a model used previously to describe tendon and ligament growth and development (6) to predict changes in the geometric and material properties of tendons and ligaments due to exercise, immobilization, and remobilization. The model predictions are compared with the results of experimental exercise and immobilization studies performed by other investigators, and implications for basic control mechanisms of tendon and ligament adaptation are discussed.


For both the immature and mature cases, the simulations predict increases of approximately 14 percent in the tendon cross-sectional area, modulus, and strength. Although the experimental studies provide results only for time points at the beginning and end of the exercise periods, the simulation results are consistent with the available data.
Translation: Exercise makes ligaments physically larger and stronger.


Figure 5 illustrates the effects of exercise, immobilization, and remobilization on structural properties such as stiffness and failure force as predicted by our simulations. Taking normal growth and development as the control, the effects are essentially the same for the immature and mature cases. Exercise leads to a moderate increase in the stiffness and failure force. Immobilization leads to a significant decrease in these properties, which rapidly return to normal with remobilization. Woo and colleagues (21) have proposed similar exercise, immobilization, and remobilization effects for ligament structural properties based on their experimental studies. Our results corroborate the relationships they have proposed
Translation: Exercise makes ligaments stiffer and tougher.


For the mature case, the simulations predict a significant decrease in the area, modulus, and strength during immobilization and a reversal of these changes during remobilization. These trends reflect the changes observed by Woo et al. For the immature case, the simulations predict similar rapid losses of modulus and strength during immobilization. However, because the area encounters a biological lower bound that is increasing, the tendon area increases in the immature animal despite immobilization. These predictions are consistent with the findings of Walsh et al. although the simulation predicts smaller increases in the cross-sectional area than were observed experimentally.
Translation: Immobilization (this probably applies to bracing) reduces the physical size, stiffness and strength of ligaments.

[Pooka1]

Here is an interesting read on what exercise does to ligaments and tendons. This directly applies to Dr. Kiester's theory on why Torso Rotation works.

Dr. McIntire will dope-slap me if I'm wrong but Kiester is saying the ligament is too tight, tethering the spine resulting in rotation and curvature. All these things appear to inure toards making the ligament even more resistant, more tethering, inducing MORE rotation and curvature, etc. etc.. It all is at odds with Kiester and his notions about TRS.

[Dingo]

Pooka1

Dr. Kiester believes that it's possible that deformed spinal ligaments can be "stretched out" through TRS.

...Dr. Vert Mooney's trunk rotation exercises which seem to have the unexpected consequence of stretching the right ligaments, and therefore seem to be somewhat effective.

Furthermore...

"The amount the ligaments have to stretch to stop the progression of the curve is surprisingly small."

The research I posted above shows that exercise makes healthy ligaments larger, stronger and stiffer. This combination of stretching and strengthening is clearly a double positive.

[Dingo]

Assuming Dr. Kiester is correct this simple experiment explains why Torso Rotation works while stretching and traction doesn't.

Test A
1) Run a dish towel under the sink and soak it.
2) Hold it on either end with your hands.
3) Push your hands together and squish the dish rag in between.

What happens? Water flows out of the dish rag at a moderate pace.

This time change step 3.

Test B
1) Run a dish towel under the sink and soak it.
2) Hold it on either end with your hands.
3) Ring the dish rag out by twisting it.

What happens? An increased volume of water gushes out and at a much faster rate.

When you twist a dish rag it is subjected to much greater force than pushing the ends together. In addition this force is applied in a more even manner across the entire rag.

And there you have it. A torso twist produces more force and works every cell in the ligament. A stretch is much weaker and depending on the direction you bend part of the ligament might not be significantly impacted at all.

[AMom]

Anna's Mom,

I can't remember the date of your daughter's ortho appointment, was it in Dec or Jan? What does her curve look like this time?

Did your PT tell you what degrees the #5 . . . 5 represent on the Cybex? Is it too nosy to ask about your daughter's entire workout? How does she hold her arms when she moves through the rotations?

My PT just returned from additional training and wants to discuss it with me. I'll post if she has anything to add to the subject. I am thankful she is willing to focus her licensing hours on this subject. She is coming over on Tuesday/ 20th.

A Mom

Dingo,

I tried the rotations with a 3-count-hold on myself for six workouts/days (1x every other day). The hold feels like a rest rather than an additional workout. How does it feel/ look to you?

We've decided to add a second seat height to the MedX workout. It is the first change we've made, other than the prescribed increased weight, and I believe it to be a minor adjustment. We will alternate between the regular seat (it adds 2" to the base) and a higher seat height (it adds another 0.5" for a total of 2.5"). Though her lumbar curve remains good at both heights & her arm position remains the same, her strength is uneven at different seat heights. We had to adjust the height of her foot position to obtain the correct angle at her hips, so that is different (however the angle is the goal rather than the positioning). I am hypothesizing the additional seat position will disburse her strength. I will note if/ how her strength responds/ weight lifted.

A Mom

[Anna's mom]

Hi A Mom!

Anna had her appt. this morning and the doc said her curves are stable, and to continue doing what we are doing! Now we can come in every 6 months instead of every 4 months! He also said that as far as progression goes, she was at the greatest risk this past year.

Regarding how the numbers on our Cybex machine translate into degrees, I don't know. I will have to ask our PT. He doesn't ever come up to the gym floor w/ us anymore, so I never think to ask! I will let you know when I find out!

Instead of describing how my daughter holds her arms during the workout, I decided to send you a video clip instead. This is the identical machine she uses, and she executes the exercise in a similar fashion as shown. (Her routine is: 15 reps right/15 reps x 4 sets. She does 2 of the sets at 35lbs and the other 2 at 30 lbs.) I can't believe my sweet, delicate daughter has gotten so strong...I tried a couple of reps and it is not easy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A2vzMBNCAY&feature=related

Hope this helps!

I am looking forward to hearing if your PT has any new information on the subject!
We are very fortunate to have a great PT as well! Thanks for sharing!

[AMom]

Good Morning,

My daughter asked me to send yours' a message, "Hi Anna, I am 12 and I have scoliosis too. Do you want to be pen pals?" --If you are okay with that, they may PM back and forth.

Hooray! One year stable is a good beginning, especially if her doctor believes she has progressed through PGV. The next hurdle will be to see if 1) she is willing to continue the workouts and 2) the curves remain stable through the second year. Did he mention her Risser sign or acetabular triradiate cartilage? Adding those two pieces of info to her age and onset of menarche will give you a fairly good idea of how much growth she has left. He probably didn't consider either one, most of the time an estimate based on age provides enough info in this situtation, but I have to ask, "just in case" more info is available.

Do you have a “long term” plan with regard to the PT?

Thank you for the link. I looked at the video clip and then at another one of a female doing the same workout. It seems as though the male had the pads higher on his shoulder/arms (different seat height/ body proportions) than the female which caused their arms to be at a different angle. In relation to her torso, would you say your daughters' arms are at a 90° angle, < 90°, or > 90°? Is her torso perpendicular to the floor, or does she lean into the shoulder pads during the workout? In relation to her torso, what is the angle of her thighs? Are her feet flat on the platform? --I am trying to understand how she fits into the machine. The equipment is usually designed for adult males which have different body proportions than adult, and adolescent females. (It seems that the hand holds should be able to slide closer & farther from the body and the foot rests should be able to raise and lower to meet the smaller body frames of preteens & young teens. Do you think designers listen to crazed parents???)

I would end with good wishes for the holiday, but know you don't need them!

A Mom

[Anna's mom]

Hi again AMom!

That is so sweet how your daughter wants to be pen pals! I will talk to my daughter about it...she is not home right now. Anyway, in regard to your questions. Our doc did not mention anything about Risser sign or acetabular triradiate cartilage. He did say at our Aug. visit that there were indications from the x-ray that her growth period was going to be slowing down soon. I didn't ask any further questions. I guess because she is remaining stable, we just take things as they are and continue w/ what we are doing exercise wise. I will have to watch her closely tomorrow at the gym to effectively answer your questions about her arms and legs. I do know that she was previously leaning into the should pads and just recently I have been trying to get her to scoot up on the seat so she is sitting up straighter and more perpendicular to the seat. I thought it might engage the lumbar region better and that is the area of her largest curve. The machine seems to fit her just fine. She is 5'4" and doesn't seem to have a problem w/ the machine being too big for her.

As far as her compliance w/ the workouts, she has no choice!! Lol! The gym is a mile from our house and I drive her there twice a week. Period. Actually, she knows she needs to do this and is thankful to not be wearing a brace. Even though she is not always happy to go, she goes.

Our long term plan is to continue w/ this until skeletal maturity. My husband and I don't want to just quit the TRS cold turkey. We will probably keep going for a while after that. Not sure how often or for how long. We only see the PT periodically for evaluation of endurance and strength (timed planks, etc.). We are signed in to the gym each week by him, but he doesn't go up w/ us to use the machines.

Have a great day!

[AMom]

Anna's Mom,

Our long term plan is to continue until skeletal maturity as well, then reduce to 2x per week for a year, & then reduce to 1x per week until she leaves for college. Everything is x-ray dependant.

I think my daughter does the workouts because she chose the treatment so she has a high buy-in. That does not mean she doesn't complain sometimes.

Our PT comes by 1x per month, as much to see if my daughter is ready to progress on the additional stretches & exercises she assigned as to check positioning in the equipment. She does a complete assessment & writes a report every 6 months. I am grateful she is willing to come to our home--it's not as though we can bring the equipment into someone's office!

5'4"--that is a great height w/ regard to equipment. My daughter has always been smaller than her peers. I think she will end up being 5'5" to 5'7", but right now she is 4'7"--3" below the minimum height for both pieces of equipment she is using. (The Cybex also has a minimum starting height of 4'10".) She started catching up with her peers last year (gained 2") and is still going. She has almost outgrown the tops, jeans, & boots we purchased six weeks ago--I doubt she'll be able to wear anything by the time January rolls around (we bought a little large, but obviously NOT LARGE ENOUGH.) If you want to make an investment $$$, buy stock in teen clothes because our family is personally keeping the industry afloat this year.

I looked at all the questions I asked and realize they were excessive. Whatever you are able to share is fine. I do not want to be the cause extra work for you.

Relax, ignore the over-excited mom (me) and enjoy the glow.

A Mom

[Anna's mom]

That is awesome that you have a PT who comes to your home! How convenient to have a machine right in your home as well! Our gym is so close to our home that it is super convenient for us. The only thing we have to work around are the PT office hours (they must sign us into the gym). It hasn't been too much of a problem. I just feel blessed to have a gym close by w/ the piece of equipment we need! A couple of times a year we are only able to make it in 1x/week because of schedules, camps, vacations, etc. I wasn't too concerned about this after speaking w/ a PT clinic in CA that does TRS and finding out that they decrease frequency of visits to once a week after a period of time. I have read other studies that estimate the effects of TRS to last approximately 4 months after discontinuing treatment. This helps me not to stress too much when life happens!

The fact that your daughter is growing rapidly and not progressing to me is a very good sign!! When we started TRS one year ago, my daughter was probably at or exceeded the minimum height requirement for the equipment. That's why fitting into the machine has never been a problem for her. She is taller than her mother now (I'm only 5'2" :))!

[Kevin_Mc]

Dr. McIntire will dope-slap me if I'm wrong but Kiester is saying the ligament is too tight, tethering the spine resulting in rotation and curvature. All these things appear to inure toards making the ligament even more resistant, more tethering, inducing MORE rotation and curvature, etc. etc.. It all is at odds with Kiester and his notions about TRS.


Pooka1

The research I posted above shows that exercise makes healthy ligaments larger, stronger and stiffer. This combination of stretching and strengthening is clearly a double positive.


Stronger and stiffer ligaments doesn't necessarily mean shorter or more rigid. Increasing range of motion i.e. stretching, while increasing strength i.e. strength training, could/would allow the ligament to increase in length while maintaining or even increasing its strength. The theory of the tight posterior ligament means that it's just potentially too short not that it's too strong or stiff.

[Pooka1]

Stronger and stiffer ligaments doesn't necessarily mean shorter or more rigid. Increasing range of motion i.e. stretching, while increasing strength i.e. strength training, could/would allow the ligament to increase in length while maintaining or even increasing its strength. The theory of the tight posterior ligament means that it's just potentially too short not that it's too strong or stiff.

OKay then.

I just wonder why this idea of a tight ligament hasn't been proven or disproven by now. Can it be surgically lengthened/weakened so that it doesn't tether the spine? In horses, they actually cut ligaments in the stifle and that solves certain problems. I wonder if this ligament can be cut without harm if it is shown to be the problem. And what's with all the other abnormal findings if it's really just a short ligament? Coincidence?

Is Kiester the only person talking about ONE particular ligament CAUSING scoliosis. Why hasn't he shown it yet?

[Ballet Mom]

OKay then.

I just wonder why this idea of a tight ligament hasn't been proven or disproven by now. Can it be surgically lengthened/weakened so that it doesn't tether the spine? In horses, they actually cut ligaments in the stifle and that solves certain problems. I wonder if this ligament can be cut without harm if it is shown to be the problem. And what's with all the other abnormal findings if it's really just a short ligament? Coincidence?

Is Kiester the only person talking about ONE particular ligament CAUSING scoliosis. Why hasn't he shown it yet?

As far as I can tell, Dr. Kiester doesn't claim that the ligamentum flavum CAUSES scolisois. He says he has proven that it is the MECHANICAL reason for the curve to develop.

The ligamentum flavum's marked elasticity serves to preserve the upright posture, and to assist the vertebral column in resuming it after flexion. The elastin prevents buckling of the ligament into the spinal canal during extension, which would cause canal compression. It seems hard to believe that it could just be severed and do anything valuable to anyone's spine.

[Ballet Mom]

Congrats for achieving stable curves with torso rotation gals! That's great news. :-)

Keep up the good work!