Spinecor Brace for Adults

[LindaRacine]

As suggested by Concerned Dad, I am opening a new thread on this topic, and will close the others.

Individuals who are interested in this treatment may post their own experience, or the results of others, from published studies in peer-reviewed journals. Posts that don't fall within this guideline will be removed.

This is from the Spinecor inventor's FAQ...


Can an adult be fitted with SpineCor?



A US study is now evaluating the use of SpineCor ttreatment for adult patients. The treatment objectives for adults are quite different to children but the same principles of postural re-education through dynamic exercise and neuromuscular feed back still apply. Treatment objectives for adults are postural improvement and pain reduction. Whilst postural improvements may lead to very small Cobb angle reductions, true correction of scoliotic curves in adults is not possible and should never be the treatment objective. Early results with adults are very positive, with both postural improvements and pain reduction in all patients to date.


Can the brace be used on an adult to reduce back pain?



Theoretically pain reduction in adults is possible, early treatment results do seem to support the hypothesis.


Has any thought been given to eventually having an ''adult'' brace?



Yes, for the moment the size range of the paediatric brace has been expanded for adult use. In the near future a specific adult SpineCor postural rehabilitation brace (P.R.B.) will be launched.

And, from Joe O'Brien's post in the "Setting the Record Straight" thread:

8. The SpineCor brace was designed and developed for adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. The indications and contra-indications are clearly defined on the SpineCorporation website, and the FAQ’s http://www.spinecorporation.com/Engl...mation/faq.htm contain very straightforward answers to many of the questions about the brace including pricing, vestibular testing, chiropractic treatment, and use by adults.

9. The use of this brace for adults is experimental at this stage, until such time as appropriate studies are published to evidence the benefits and harms. But that is no reason to be upset about studying the use of this brace for that purpose. And it is certainly no justification for anyone to prevent, or gang up on, someone who is part of the study to share their experience with the community. If we adopted that same attitude towards surgery we would be still be having patients spend a year in bed in plaster body casts.

[CHRIS WBS]

I for one would like to hear more from Mamamax. I found her highly entertaining.

[mamamax]

I for one would like to hear more from Mamamax. I found her highly entertaining.

Thank you dear Chris :D

And thank you dear friends ...

Time today spent posting in the Spinecor Success thread .. the muse wishes to share this night, in this thread - a joy-filled simple little poem (inspired to share as a result of my personal Spinecor treatment/experience) by an anonymous author - for all.

If only i could catch a rainbow
I would do it just for you
And share with you its beauty
On the days you're feeling blue

If only i could build a mountain
You could call your own
A place to find serenity
A place to be at home

If only i could take your troubles
I would toss them in the sea
But all these things, I'm finding
Are impossible for me

I cannot build a mountain
Or catch a rainbow fair
But let me be what I know best
Friend .. who is always there

[Danihenson]

Thanks Linda
Sure cant take you with me to the doctor? Maybe a quick link in my Kindle? Kidding. Anyway thanks exactly what I was wondering. Ill talk to back doctor on moday when he works on my facets.

!!Oh, so this kinda cool. I got perscribed a TeNS unit.. (Its as small as the cell phones and beepers) Yea, I went hiking last month! very cool. Course we had to stop frequently for rests, but the view was georgous. And Mr. T , in my opinion, is the coolest little device ever :)

Anyway, thanks for giving a straight answer. Sure do appreciate you taking care of things so well.
*huggs*
dani

[mamamax]

Setting the Record Straight
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8765
Thank you Joe

Individuals who are interested in this treatment may post their own experience, or the results of others, from published studies in peer-reviewed journals. Posts that don't fall within this guideline will be removed. [Post #1 This Thread]
Thank you Linda

Working Web Link For Manufacturer
(link in Post #1 is not functioning)
http://www.spinecorporation.com/English/index.htm
Select language by clicking country flag
Current FAQs found under Patient Information Tab
Web page updates are slow


Amazing Brace - Week Two*
59 year old Patient Female
Research Study Participant
4/21/09

Taking stock of my Spinecor treatment so far (day 14), some thoughts that first come to mind, are the comments from others. Upon first seeing me in brace, my sister - with big blue eyes amazed .. said: "you look so relaxed, your neck was always so tense - like you were struggling to maintain your posture" (sisters notice these things). I too noticed right away an immediate release of neck tension in brace and the change in physical apearance as a result. Co-workers tell me i stand straighter, some have noticed i'm a little taller (that's a whole strange thing, bouncing all over the place like Alice in Wonderland as far as height, daily). Interesting, the things others notice, confirming my own observations. One woman at work has said the treatment is changing my attitude. Well, i suppose if one experiences less pain than normal - one may certainly seem happier.

Truth is - it's not so much how we look in life as it is how we feel. In-brace, i feel ... relieved. Wearing schedule today, is up to 7 1/2 hours. I must take it off at work - which i don't like to do, because my body reverts to its old ways (but it does take a few minutes longer each day for it to do so, i observe). I look forward to when i will be able to wear it all day - for it makes the day much better.

This brace is designed to retrain atrophied muscles that cannot hold the spine erect - so there is no need to worry about muscle atrophy as with other braces i've heard about. I believe it's true (as my provider tells me and manufacturer web site supports), as i can feel it in-brace .. and have witnessed progressive strengthening out of brace albeit quite slow at this stage and certainly not long lasting (baby steps). I'm free to exercise if i want to - outside of some right lateral breathing exercises (designed to increase chest expansion on the locked up left rib side .. that is working too) - but i don't, though i probably should. Later, when i'm wearing full time.

Surgery not being an option for me - i continue to be pleased with this choice. I wish it had been available for me as an adolescent - and marvel at the stories in the adolescent forum. Reducing pain meds - not needing them as much. Filled with gratitude that cannot be denied. On a humorous note - know all this makes it seem like i drank the mind altering Kool-aid .. but, really, week two, in final analysis - it is what it is ;)




Disclaimer: This is only one Adult Spinecor experience - not all experiences are the same among patients, many however .. report similar experience.

*Title: As a published author, and editor, I have a propensity of titling even my personal written sharings. This title is borrowed from a friend in pen whose son as a young adult completed Spinecor treatment. His mother a Canadian writer who has a published work under same title: Amazing Brace (title here used by me in admiration of her work both as concerned parent and professional reporter). http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080123_55198_55198 (Published January 23, 2008 – Canada) and also posted on the brace manufacturer's web page under: News

A shared story from NSF member and fellow Patient:
http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7733

Next Update: 4-9 weeks from now

[mamamax]

Just some informational sharing - for those who are searching:

About Spinecor
Featuring:
Surgical doctors/inventors Rivard & Cioillard
Dr. Joseph O'Brien/President & CEO National Scoliosis Foundation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBtDSHp_Ko

Inventors:
Dr. Charles H. Rivard MD
Dr. Christine Cioillard MD
Research Center, Sainte Justine Hospital
Email addresses on Manufacturer's Website:
chrivard@gmail.com
chcoillard@gmail.com

PDF Research Paper authored by Inventors
www.srs.org/professionals/bracing_manuals/section13.pdf

Manufacturer (Indications & Contra-Indications)
See Patient Information Tab
Maclean's (Amazing Brace) article appears
on the Spinecor Manufacturer web site.
Also in the news, an NBC News Broadcast
http://www.spinecorporation.com/English/index.htm

Spinecore patient/real people sharings - both young and old
(sort by date added for most recent)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=spinecor&aq=f

My doc's headquarters - lots of good info
(has treated 1,000+ adult patients)
Practice certified by Manufacturer
SOSORT Founding Members
http://www.scoliosissystems.com/?gclid=COynnM2kiJoCFRBhnAodTR-zQA
Information on Adult Bracing:
http://www.scoliosissystems.com/adult.html



Note: Updating this page periodically as factual information is gathered

[MichelleK]

Hello, I've been following your posts & subsequent bashing you've received lately! I'm glad you decided to persevere & continue posting. I'm v.interested in the brace for pain relief not curve correction. I'm wondering if you can give me a ballpark figure as far as cost? If not, where can I find that info?

[mamamax]

Hi Michelle - Thank you. I'm sure fees vary from one practice to another - in my experience, ballpark this year is probably around $5,000 (for brace, brace fitting, x-rays, etc). At first i thought that expensive, and then later (after fitting) - decided it was worth the cost! Thank you kindly for your support - it takes courage for all of us to share this learning experience. Hope to hear more from you.

[mamamax]

A simple sharing - for someone who may be taking first steps.

Firstly - in sharing, i cannot predict the outcome of others, i can only tell my personal (adult) story.

I have two curves which are quite large (in the standard needs-surgery category) and my patient file in my doctors office states: severe rotational scoliosis.

After making sure i had no extenuating circumstances that would prohibit treatment (my personal opinion is, that this is most appropriate for all) .. i decided to do what we all do when making our respective treatment choices - which was to take a leap of faith (as none of us can predict our future in any treatment choice).

I also made sure my brace provider was Spinecor certified and would urge anyone interested in treatment to do the same.

On fitting day i was in pain (5/6 out of 10). The moment the brace was fitted, i was out of pain completely. Day one - pain level returned to pre-fitting level upon brace removal. Approaching week three, as wearing time increases - out of brace pain decreases progressively and i am now cutting back on pain medication.

While in early stages of treatment, i am not worried about muscle atrophy as i personally feel i am experiencing the opposite which would be indicative of brace design. Questions about that are best discussed with one's Spinecor certified provider.

Hope this helps anyone taking first steps

[mamamax]

In the continuing history of the Spinecor brace (and my personal story) - the new adult specific Spinecor Brace has been formally launched for distribution - well referenced information found here:
http://www.scoliosissystems.com/adult.html

The Spinecor manufacturer web site has a lot of good information regarding the brace, but as of this date has not yet updated their website (that i can see) to reflect the announcement, presume we will see it soon (some web sites only update monthly). Noticed today when clicking the flag representing one's country (on the manufacturer's home page) - that a list of certified distributors is presented. Using the Canada location, email addresses for surgical Drs/Inventors Rivard and Coillard appear and i have updated posting #6 to reflect this information.
Manufacturer web site: http://www.spinecorporation.com/English/index.htm

My sharing based on personal experience/thoughts of web site (manufacturer) and certified provider offered information (through web site and person-to-person Dr/patient discussion):

Both braces (the one originally designed for adolescents, and the newer one designed specifically for adults) are designed to do essentially the same thing and both are marketed as a postural rehabilitation brace (PRB).

Both braces are designed in two pieces - the difference being in the bottom half of the adult brace. My current brace, originally designed for adolescents has a flexible pelvic base which i if find most comfortable - the adult specific bottom half is designed like shorts and made from a spandex-like material.

My brace purchase is new (within 9 days of formal adult brace launching) and i've been offered the upgrade of the bottom half if i would like (though treatment success, for my individual condition, is not seen as being effected either way, making my final decision comfort based). Will be seeing my provider (DrL) on Friday, May 1, to check it out.

Update on that (regarding the new bottom half - specific to myself) to follow.

[mamamax]

The new adult specific Spinecor brace does appear to look as something that hides better under clothing. Gone from this design is the pelvic belt base and thigh bands, replaced with rather tight fitting shorts - bolero and four elastic straps remain. I personally found the fit a bit too tight for my tastes and have elected to keep the pelvic base designed for adolescents.

As my treatment success is not seen as being effected either way - this became a personal comfort based decision and in my personal estimation only, the original design (for adolescents and used by adults for the past five years) may be better suited for active wear.


Posting based upon: Personal Experience

[mamamax]

Within my first three weeks of wearing my Spinecor brace, i lost 5 lbs! No, i'm not touting it as a weight loss device :) Actually, my pain levels have decreased so dramatically that i've simply become more active without any dietary changes - the perfect formula for weight loss (according to my primary care physician).

This caused the brace to feel loose - in fact causing me to feel that straps 2&4 had lost their elasticity. Something made me check the scale - and sure enough, i had lost weight. I was truly tempted to self treat (so to speak) and tighten strap #4 as brief experimentation seemed to return the brace more to the feeling of its original fitting. Maybe others will experience something similar - please, if you do - do not self treat. Only a Spinecor certified provider should ever adjust the brace, otherwise treatment can be compromised, effecting the outcome. This brace is actually rather rocket science and best left in well skilled and experienced (Spinecor certified) hands.

I called my doctor to let him know about the weight loss and loose fit, and he scheduled me for a free evaluation very quickly. Here's what really had to be done to reset the brace to the new me: The strap that i thought should be shortened - was actually lengthened and two others shortened. Immediately the adjustment left me feeling like i did at the original fitting. So you see - what i felt should be done was quite wrong.

Posting this for others who may think they know how to handle such a situation - when in fact, under such circumstances one should always consult with their certified provider, no matter how "logical" one's observations may seem ;) This good advice for either adult or adolescent.

Posting Based Upon: Personal experience and Dr/patient consultation

[kaizan]

thankyou Mamamax for sharing your experiences with me, i am very interested in Spinecor and reading your posts were great.
cheers

[mamamax]

Thank you Rhonda for your kind words. Lots of good info here (across all categories), grateful we can all share with each other according to our needs. Gosh, not that many years ago sharing the things we all do here, was pretty much impossible without the Internet & World Wide Web .. glad we have NSF. Thanks again & all the very best to you and yours, and double very best on the 22nd - will keep you in my thoughts and prayers (say one for me too?). Hope you keep us posted - looks like you are in excellent hands there in Melbourne).

[mamamax]

As i continue my treatment and research along the way - a name comes up over and over again: Martha Hawes. A Google search of her name will bring up many of the things i have found, but what interests me most is her personal story. Diagnosed at age 7 with moderately severe thoracic scoliosis, she went untreated till age 40 (her curve then stable/structural). She began intense treatment which included massage therapy, manual traction, ischemic pressure, and comprehensive manipulative medicine (CMM). Impressive to me, the dedication required in this.

Her results (reference in publication #15 below): 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years (changes occurred gradually over an eight-year period, with the most rapid improvement occurring during two periods when CMM was employed).

She is my hero and i look to her whenever i feel there is no hope.

Both Martha and Joe O'Brien have written many informative papers - papers i find myself reading late into the night. Along with these, i read everything i can find regarding Spinecor bracing and SEAS exercises (there is precious little for adults at this time).

I did not begin my treatment looking for Cobb angle improvement - but rather began my treatment looking for pain reduction. I'm happy to report that has happened (along with postural improvement) - so, in this regard it is enough that i have found such. My protocol is two years in length - and i cannot help but research and ponder possibilities along the way. Find myself thinking if just one person on this planet has accomplished what Martha has, then certainly there are possibilities for others and if there exists possibilities for others - there is certainly possibility for myself. In theory.

My treatment is in the early stages - and i have a long way to go, and i cannot possibly know at this point what my final results may be (though treatment at this point appears promising). I believe i am in good hands as i continue this journey and share my personal story (which sometimes seems to me much like Dorthy's along the yellow brick road).

Next Posting: July regarding treatment statistics (first official follow up exam).

References:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
In Search field enter: Martha Hawes

Publication #15:
Reversal of the signs & symptoms of moderately severe idiopathic scoliosis in response to physical methods
Hawes MC, Brooks WJ.
Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:365-8.
PMID: 15457757

Publication #9
The Transformation of Spinal Curvature into Spinal Deformity
Hawes MC, O'brien JP.
Scoliosis. 2006 Mar 31;1(1):3.
PMID: 16759413

Publication #17
The Use of Exercises in the treatment of scoliosis: An evidence based critical review of the literature
Hawes MC.
Pediatr Rehabil. 2003 Jul-Dec;6(3-4):171-82. Review.
PMID: 14713583

Publication #1
A Century of Spine Surgery: What Can Patients Expect
Hawes MC, O'Brien JP.
Disabil Rehabil. 2008;30(10):808-17. Review.
PMID: 18432439

Adult scoliosis can be reduced through specific SEAS exercises: a case report. Scoliosis. 2008 Dec 16;3:20.
Negrini A, Parzini S, Negrini MG, Romano M, Atanasio S, Zaina F, Negrini S.
ISICO (Italian Scientific Spine Institute), Via Roberto Bellarmino 13/1, 20121 Milan, Italy.

A Retrospective Study of twenty three adults treated for scoliosis using the Spinecor Orthosis.
Deutchman, G.; Lamantia M.,; Indelacato J.; Raykhman M.:
From 4th International Conference on Conservative Management of Spinal Deformities Boston, MA, USA. 13–16 May 2007.
Scoliosis 2007, 2(Suppl 1):S23doi:10.1186/1748-7161-2-S1-S23

Review of the Literature: Non - operative Scoliosis Treatment
Marc J. Lamantia, D.C., and Gary A. Deutchman, D.C.
TAC, Cover Stories , Volume 31, Issue 4
Published: The American Chiropractor (2009)
http://theamericanchiropractor.com/articledetail.asp?articleid=1115&category=8

[concerned dad]

Whats going on with your height changes? Are you still checking that out?

[mamamax]

Hi CD - yes i am still monitoring that. Results: in the morning upon rising - 5' and sometimes a tad over .. out of brace in evening 4'10 .. in brace throughout the day 4'11 and sometimes a tad over. These things, i believe from what i read about such things - indicative of what may be called postural improvement. (Pre-fitting stable both am/pm = 4'9).

Maybe i should add this info to my posting #15, this thread - and include some references regarding postural rehabilitation. Thanks CD.

[SpiderPug]

How interesting about your large variance in height through the day.

Can you please share, how many hours per day do you wear the brace now? Is it a full-time schedule?

I'm also wondering, for adult SpineCor users, are in-brace xrays taken? It would be so interesting to know how much correction you are getting.

BTW, what is 'ischemic pressure'?

[mamamax]

Hi SpiderPug :)

It is interesting this height variation - have no idea what it means and will ask the good doctor about it on the 27th when i have my first official follow up. Thinking: maybe something to do with postural rehabilitation (this brace after all is what is termed a PRB - posture rehabilitation brace). Would seem my body/spine is trying to figure out where it wants to go with this.

I'm in brace approximately 13 hours/day (progressive break-in schedule). Adult protocol differs from adolescent (as do treatment goals). Yes, adult SpineCor patients, from my personal experience - receive both before and after fitting xrays, day one, and i found the pre-brace reading to be concistant with the last xray taken by my orthopedic specialist. Cobb angle improvement is not unusual in several brace types - what makes SpineCor a bit different is: Cobb angle improvement is progressive, because it is designed to be that way through using progressive postural rehabilitation (this information can be found within the manufacturer's web pages). I was told by my provider not to expect any immediate improvement (presuming based on my age and condition). We were both a bit surprised (results below). The pain relief i experience is beyond all expectation.

Ischemic pressure, as it relates to my posting #15 and Martha Hawes (this thread) is again, something i will be asking my doctor about on the 27th. At this point, from what little i know, i suspect it has to do with a physical therapy known as
myofacial release: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11002435

Looking back at posting #15 and Martha's experience (and reference) - i am wondering what is CMM .. this is where she reports greatest improvement. Do you know anything about this?

Are you a Spider Pug owner? Those are precious pups: http://www.urbanpug.com/
and i certainly wouldn't mind having one around the house! http://www.urbanpug.com/pictures/main.php?g2_itemId=1202

Thanks for your questions & hope to hear more from you!

Pre Brace (xray):
Upper 42 degrees Right thoracic/Lower 57 degrees Left Thoracolumbar - Rotation 26 degrees
Immediate xray InBrace:
Upper 29 degrees/Lower 51 degrees - Rotation 21 degrees
(inhale/held both xrays as is done w/specialist)

Height pre-brace: 4'9" (4'9 1/2" in brace at fitting)

[mamamax]

Spinecor graced the airways with seven presentations. One of the greatest questions/challenges regarding any treatment for scoliosis is - does said treatment alter or change the natural history of the condition (in a significant number of participants)? Being new .. answering such questions relative to Spinecor does take time (money and willing research participants). And so we wait.

In regard to adolescents (Spinecor treatment beginning in 1993) - Rivard and Collard answer these questions at SOSORT 2009, and the verdict per their collected data is affirmative - Spinecor changes natural history in adolescents.


Results: As demonstrated before the SpineCor brace does alter the natural history of the adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. This study showed that 71.2 % of patients (353 out of 495) corrected or stabilized their initial Cobb angle, and only 52 patients (10.5 %) had 6¼ or more progression of their initial Cobb angle without an indication for surgery. 74 immature patients
out of 495 (14.9 %) required surgical fusion while receiving treatment.. Only 16 patients (3.2%) withdrawn from the treatment.

Conclusions: The SpineCor brace is effective for the treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. The positive outcomes are maintained even after the weaning of the brace. Moreover, one third of the patients still corrected their Cobb angle in the five years period after the end of the treatment.

Affiliation Research Center, Sainte-Justine Hospital, & University of Montreal, 3175 ch. C™te Ste-Catherine, MontrŽal, QuŽbec, H3T 1C5 Canada


We adults continue to wait as treatment for us only began in 2005. Preliminary results proving promising .. confirmed (large scale) evidence, awaiting the future.

And of course in the midst of it all - debate continues. Looking forward to 2010.

SOSORT 2009:
http://sosort-lyon.net/
Select Final Program (left of page)
Scroll down:
12.27 - New results for 495 patients with adolescent idiopathic scoliosis treated with the SpineCor brace
Circo A.B., Coillard C., Rivard C.H. (CAN)


Weiss 2008:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18810014?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087554?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[mamamax]

Yesterday was my six month check up.

The out of brace x-ray (taken at the end of a long day) measured at 38 degrees (right thoracic) and 46 (degrees left thoracolumbar).

Beginning measurements (out of brace) six months ago = 42/57.

Six months ago, my cobb angle measurements (along with pain levels), put me in a "needs surgery" category.

Now, I am officially out of that category and my pain levels are so dramatically decreased that I would dare say I'm in the general population in terms of back pain.

[swimmergirlsmom]

Hi Mamamax
Thank you for sharing your Spinecor success story. I am so happy for you, that your curves have improved and that your pain has also decreased! :)

[concerned dad]

Great news Mamamax! Especially the part about

"my pain levels are so dramatically decreased"

[Ballet Mom]

That is wonderful that your pain has been reduced mamamax! Very happy for you!! :)

[Mom_15]

Thank you for the Spinecor Success Story!
I am glad that it not only works for adolescents, and kids, but also for adults!

I am very happy for your continued progress and pain reduction!

:D

[mamamax]

Swimmergirlsmom, CD, Ballet Mom and Mom 15 ~

Thank you so much for your well wishes and comments.

I'm so greatful for this brace and for a doctor who is well experienced in its application - I would encourage any adult to give this treatment a try if at all possible.

I have had occasion to go a weekend or two without the brace entirely, and during that time the pain levels have remained dramatically decreased (often nonexistent) and my posture has remained vastly improved. Without a doubt, for me and many others - the Spinecore brace is nothing short of miraculous. It would appear that natural history may also be altered with adults :-)

[jillw]

I'm glad to hear that your quality of life has improved!

[mamamax]

Hi Jill - Thank you. I've thanked you twice now and for some reason the posts keep disappearing! Quality of life is number one in my book and the before/after Spinecor experience is literally as different as night and day. I'm no longer in pain near 24/7.

I'm just at the seven month mark this November. Last evening as I went to sleep I was struck with the oddest sensation - I felt as if I was in brace (which is a really good feeling for my back). Anyway, woke up this morning feeling the same way - even as I sit here typing. Would appear there is indeed some muscular re-training going on, and that the muscles are learning to remember (lol). It's one thing to read about these things from published studies etc - quite another to experience it. A joy really.

Was reading your signature - congratulations to you and Katie!!

Hope this post takes and doesn't disappear due to some computer glitch ;-)

[Bigbluefrog]

So as an adult using spinecor brace, the results were immediate pain relief,
posture changes, relaxed neck, in brace you reduced your curves and rotation?

Curious, out of brace ~do the curves stay reduced?

So you only wear the brace at night? or daytime?


Do you have exercises to do too? If so what type?

Thanks upfront :) for sharing your experiences.
I have a sil with mild scoliosis and is having discomfort

[mamamax]

Hi Bluefrog!

I'll try to answer your questions as best I know how from my adult experience/perspective.

Yes my immediate result was pain relief and postural change (with little sister noticing the neck thing) - and yes curvature and rotation are reduced in brace. The most recent out of brace x-ray (at the end of a very long day), suggests that this reduction is holding on a temporary and limited basis at this time. Protocol for me is 2 years of treatment, I'm only seven months into treatment - and so answering that question further is some years away.

So far, for me as an adult, bracing with Spincor is performing beyond all my expectations.

As an adult, my protocol is different than that of an adolescent - I only wear the brace during the day - approximately 10-13 hours a day. This is what has been recommended for my specific condition - and as you will see up thread, this involved a progressive break in schedule. There has been an occasional time or two recently, when I have gone 24 hours without the brace (I know bad me), when I do pain levels remain dramatically reduced and comparatively non existent - the postural improvement also holds during this brief time period.

Exercise - yes, I do have prescribed exercises to do - they are Schroth exercises and prescribed by a certified provider (trained by and certified through the clinic in Germany to apply the technique unsupervised). I am not an exercise fanatic and need to be honest here - I don't do them as often as I should, and plan to change that soon. I can vouch for this (from my experience only) - when the proper Schroth exercise is applied (again, for me) it is rather obvious that something good is being done - because, the body (mine) feels good doing it. For what that may (or may not) be worth.

For those who may stumble across this thread seeking a similar treatment - I would like to reiterate something I have said before. In choosing this treatment, I do believe it is very important to include a spine specialist (as I did) who can clear one for treatment (making sure there are no extenuating circumstances that would cause problems), to select an experienced provider who is certified to apply the technique unsupervised, (these may be found at the manufacturer's website) and of course, follow the prescribed protocol and refer all concerns along the way to one's provider and/or spine specialist as necessary. Just a little old fashioned horse sense when choosing any treatment.

And as a sidebar - who gets to decide? We do (well, we did here anyway). Thank you Bluefrog, CD, and Sharon & Happy Veteran's Day to all.

[Bigbluefrog]

thanks for the reply!

I think your right 1st see an orthopedist specializing in scoliosis and have the radiographs to rule out and know what your dealing with.

It is important to do the research, and it sounds to me that exercise and the brace are working for you.....it would be interesting to see the long term results.

[mamamax]

Sorry for not posting back when I had this visit. It was pretty routine except for the new radiation free look see:http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e291/maxxfax/scolio/dicamscan.jpg

Each adjustment is like a "tightening up" for lack of better explanation - and with this adjustment I actually was feeling a little soreness as days went by. But that discomfort has gone away.

Something may be changing. I worked 2 hours overtime (per day) this week, and hence spent 2 extra hours in brace (daily). On the fourth day my back felt completely different, in a very good way. I don't know how to explain it other than to say I feel like something has "un-kinked" in the thoracic and lower lumbar regions. So I'm going to go ahead and increase my wearing time by 2 hours daily.

Have an appointment with my orthopedic specialist (who prescribed this brace for me) in March, for a full set of xrays. Nervous, about that - hope there won't be any progression seen - and a part of me also hopes that an improvement may be seen.

Closing in on the first year of a two year protocol :-)

[mamamax]

Busy week. On Monday, I had an appointment with my orthopedic specialist for a full set of follow up xrays which are taken every two years in order to track what's going on. The cobb angle reading this date showed improvement - after two days out of brace.

Today, I had a brace adjustment and a Formetric scan (attached - top image from December, bottom from today). I had emailed Dr. Lamantia a digital copy of Monday's xray taken from my camera. He had a truly fancy piece of equipment which assists in reading a computerized digital image. While both he and the orthopedic specialist had used the same anchor points - Dr. Lamantia did not interpret the cobb angle improvement to be as significant (in terms of numbers) as did the ortho.

I've come to understand, at least in my case - that cobb angle is not as important to me as how I feel (though it is possible that one may effect the other). I have felt an improvement over the last three months that I of course could not explain in medical terms (given my lack of medical background). The Formetric image shows a significant improvement in trunk balance - so I think that is what I have felt. Learned this week that cobb angle measurement is truly not an exact science and that much more goes into interpreting this condition, which is truly mysteriously unique unto each patient.

Today's brace adjustment was done with the hopes of improving the pelvis/hip area which, as can be seen, is definitely needing some rehabilitation.

Spent about two hours with Dr. Lamantia discussing many things. The NYC office offers an intensive Schroth workshop and in the future such workshops may be offered in the satellite locations. I look forward to that - in the meanwhile, my search for a local PT with Schroth experience continues. And I'm now more focused on investigating improving lung function as I tend to think this is important for everyone as they age. I have noticed that I can now expand my ribs at will, something I could not do last April.

Pain levels continue to decrease. I cannot express how truly wonderful it is to wake up without pain and to go about my daily routine near effortlessly when compared to April of last year when I was in horrific pain near 24/7. I remain deeply grateful for the efforts of Drs. Lamantia & Deutchman in the area of adult bracing, and of course for the work of Drs. Rivard (SRS surgeon), and Dr. Coillard (brace inventors).

[Back-out]

Did'nt want to start a dedicated thread, but if this post to another forum is to be believed, Dr. Obachei himself is using the SpineCor Brace for patients (here pediatric is highlighted). Apparently, he fits them too! Maybe everyone else already knows this, but I sure didn't. Note though, that he acknowledges that they don't help everyone. It seems he has specialized criteria even to fit them, unsure if they are SpineCor's or his.

Below is the forum. If you want to see the post I recently received by email, it should be readily available there.

Scoliosis-Medical@yahoogroups.com
The poster's name is Kathy but her online name may be Khanley40. I was going to reproduce her letter, but decided it might be somehow an invasion of privacy. IF the Search Engine is working (sometimes the Yahoo groups can be wonky), anyone interested should be able to find the recent post.

[mamamax]

Bracing treatment ended for me after approximately 13 months. At fitting the standard protocol for both adolescents and adults was 2 years. I've noted that manufacturer has adjusted this time period for adults to 14 months.

I have been out of brace for some six months. Last xray shows minor cobb angle improvement (nothing worth making a case study out of). The greater reward has been in the area of pain management and postural rehabilitation. Prior to treatment my posture was that of an old lady (wait a minute, I am an old lady!), and pain levels 24/7 were enough to make me seriously contemplate surgery. In fact, I did consult with a well known SRS surgeon just prior to learning about Spinecor for adults.

Post treatment, the pain levels are only episodic with over exertion. This has been maintained six months post treatment and I can not detect any pain progression. Posture remains rehabilitated from 4'9" to 5' (evening measurement, morning is slightly higher).

Since beginning treatment I've come to learn that adult bracing is not such a new thing in Europe, and have even had the privelidge of corresponding with other adults who have tried it, with more cobb angle improvement, in conjunction with Schroth therapy. In Europe, this method is under Weiss (or those trained by him), with a different type of brace. So that is interesting, and I hope we see more of this in the future in the US.

Mine is just one story - documented evidence is limited and seems surrounded in controversy. At the time I began treatment, Spinecor was my only option (given time and resources) outside of surgery. I certainly can't say this treatment will have avoided surgery in the future (no one can), but I can say it avoided surgery for the present (based on pain and magnitude of curvature).

I've learned much over the course of these many months, regarding many things. Mostly, that my journey is not over, given my age, etc. My next step will involve Schroth therapy and for that I will look to the expertise of Bea Torres.

Special thanks to Joseph O'Brien for allowing me to share my story.

[concerned dad]

Thanks for the update Mamamax. I'm glad to hear it helped your pain. It sounds encouraging and perhaps others will benefit from you sharing your personal experience.

[livingtwisted]

Thanks for sharing! It definitely gives me hope and motivation knowing that adults have benefited from conservative treatments.

[Ballet Mom]

I'm glad the bracing helped you mamamax. Amazingly enough, they used to use bracing for adults here in the US also. Apparently my grandfather's sister used a brace all the time as an adult because she was so curled up from scoliosis. Yes, my father's family has all the double-jointedness. Apparently we're all just too evolved to wear braces anymore.

I'm glad you were able to tell your story also, mamamax. It's really pretty amazing you were able to. Most of the people who are not cheerleaders for surgery have been driven off, even fireflymd. (I hope your daughter is doing well, if you are still reading, firefly.)

No doubt this site is supported by donations from medical device companies which would explain the pro-surgical slant.

Best of luck to you with Schroth, I am actually considering going with my daughter to Italy and ISICO and find out about SEAS exercises, in the meantime I'm going to show her how to do sideshift exercises. We'll see what happens.

Hugs to you mamamax. :-)

[jrnyc]

i seriously doubt that statement about this forum being supported be any medical companies of any kind! i find the suggestion very offensive...

i have never felt pushed to have surgery...by anyone on this forum...EVER...in any way..,period!
i don't see any suggestions that any of the so very pro bracing or pro Schroth people are on anyone's payroll...and it would be just as likely, in my opinion.

jess

[Pooka1]

Balletmom is a conspiracy theorist.

[Ballet Mom]

i seriously doubt that statement about this forum being supported be any medical companies of any kind! i find the suggestion very offensive...

i have never felt pushed to have surgery...by anyone on this forum...EVER...in any way..,period!
i don't see any suggestions that any of the so very pro bracing or pro Schroth people are on anyone's payroll...and it would be just as likely, in my opinion.

jess

Why be offended? It would be a normal expense for companies like that. It is the way our system works. I believe the Australian scoliosis site even states that they are funded by one of the medical device companies, Medtronic, if I remember correctly.

[Ballet Mom]

Balletmom is a conspiracy theorist.

A conspiracy when this is the way a capitalist economy runs. LOL. Did you immigrate from Russia or something recently?

[Pooka1]

A conspiracy when this is the way a capitalist economy runs. LOL. Did you immigrate from Russia or something recently?

Yes.

Love,
"Svetlana"

[Pooka1]

Actually I meant "Da."

[Ballet Mom]

Yes.

Love,
"Svetlana"


Bingo. Time to go get deprogrammed.

[jrnyc]

hey "Svetlana" ...i think you are pretty funny!

i have seen no statement anywhere on forum from any medical company stating that the forum is supported by such a company/companies...
so, if that were true, i, and others on this forum, would be misled from the get go...
what is your proof that these "medical companies" are supporting this forum...or is it just an assumption on your part...
a little paranoid, maybe?

capitalism does not equate to deception...at least, not in my book...and i am a proud card carrying...passport carrying.... AMERICAN!
All hail the red white and blue!

jess

[livingtwisted]

jrnyc,

I don't have any proof, but let's try common sense... Who do you think would be aware of/interested in a non profit organization devoted entirely to scoliosis and bother to/have the funds to support it? It's possible that some of it is individuals who work in related fields or whose family has been affected by scoliosis, but if they have any larger contributors they would likely be medical companies. NSF doesn't list their sponsors, but SRS will give you a hint: http://www.srs.org/about/corporatepartners.php. And I don't feel deceived by it -- always consider the source.

btw, must you all pollute every thread with nonsense? I really don't understand why the name calling is tolerated.

[jrnyc]

WHAT name calling?!
"paranoid" is name calling to you?

polluting a thread?
are you serious..?
there are some on this very thread, and i don't need to name names, who pollute every single thread with so much garbage, name calling and accusations, it is outrageous you could accuse me of that!
they run in a little pack, a crowd...all together in their mutual beliefs and support system! most know who their "leader" is!

paranoia is a condition...not "name calling"

if the shoe fits...wear it!!

you seem to be quite accustomed to your own version of "common sense," which is nothing but accusations without any facts!
your idea of "evidence" makes science look like a joke!

jess

[hdugger]

btw, must you all pollute every thread with nonsense? I really don't understand why the name calling is tolerated.

It's a puzzle. Officially, courtesy is the rule and non-courteous posts will be deleted, but I've never seen such a thing happen.

"NSF - all the free-for-all of a political forum, all the vulnerability of a health forum"

[jrnyc]

i have sent the question of "support" by "medical device companies" to Linda Racine, with a request for clarification...

other than that, i am done engaging with this thread...
i do not wish to engage with most of those here who are so full of "common sense" but no proof...of anything

jess

[livingtwisted]

jrnyc, I'm sorry, my last post was not clear. The name calling comment was definitely not meant to be directed at you. That was meant for EVERYONE who does it, but I was not thinking of you when I wrote it. It was also a legitimate question for the moderator -- why is it tolerated?


you seem to be quite accustomed to your own version of "common sense," which is nothing but accusations without any facts! your idea of "evidence" makes science look like a joke!

I didn't mention anything about evidence or science. My comment, which I think this is in response to, was really more about economics.

[jrnyc]

hi mehera
all is fine...
i just don't know if i would want to be part of a forum that is supported by "medical device companies"
that is my question to Linda...that is what why i wrote to her privately...to seek an answer to that question...
IF this forum is supported by medical companies with large financial interests, i would want to know about it!

otherwise, all is fine
i wish no scoli person ever had to suffer with pain!

and i wish all a happy and healthy New Year

jess

[livingtwisted]

jrnyc, I'm sure everyone would be interested to hear her reply if it seems appropriate to share. I know I am. It is concerning, but it might be an unavoidable reality. Even if the forum isn't supported directly, much of the research we rely on had to have been funded by somebody. Economics will always factor into the treatment options available to us, even under the most ethical circumstances.

And I agree no one should have to be in pain. Which is why it's so upsetting to see threads get derailed by a side argument (which I suppose I am guilty of doing now, out of frustration from seeing the same argument happening across three different threads). Valuable information gets buried. And feelings get hurt. No one needs to feel that they've made the wrong decision by a lay person they've never met. I think you said in an earlier post that you've never felt pressured by this forum, and I'm glad. Unfortunately I have and I don't think I'm alone.

[livingtwisted]

"NSF - all the free-for-all of a political forum, all the vulnerability of a health forum"

HA! Love it!

[LindaRacine]

Interesting. If anything, you might say this site was supported by the manufacturers of the Spinecor brace. That's much closer to the truth, as far as I know, than saying that device manufacturers support the NSF.

Do you like the iScoliosis site, Balletmom? I believe that site is 100% funded by a manufacturer.

[LindaRacine]

I'm glad the bracing helped you mamamax. Amazingly enough, they used to use bracing for adults here in the US also. Apparently my grandfather's sister used a brace all the time as an adult because she was so curled up from scoliosis. Yes, my father's family has all the double-jointedness. Apparently we're all just too evolved to wear braces anymore.

I'm glad you were able to tell your story also, mamamax. It's really pretty amazing you were able to. Most of the people who are not cheerleaders for surgery have been driven off, even fireflymd. (I hope your daughter is doing well, if you are still reading, firefly.)

No doubt this site is supported by donations from medical device companies which would explain the pro-surgical slant.

Best of luck to you with Schroth, I am actually considering going with my daughter to Italy and ISICO and find out about SEAS exercises, in the meantime I'm going to show her how to do sideshift exercises. We'll see what happens.

Hugs to you mamamax. :-)

No doubt? None whatsoever?

[Ballet Mom]

No doubt? None whatsoever?

Oh please. Lay off me. Why do you think I would think that? Anybody who reads this site can figure out what's going on here. Look at the threads today. The fact that you don't try to control any of the abuse that is hurled by the surgical cheerleaders on this site to those trying to find other ways is evidence in itself.

If a brace manufacturer is the company supporting this site, they are saints. And I'm surprised they're still in business due to their lack of business acumen.

[Ballet Mom]

Interesting. If anything, you might say this site was supported by the manufacturers of the Spinecor brace. That's much closer to the truth, as far as I know, than saying that device manufacturers support the NSF.

Do you like the iScoliosis site, Balletmom? I believe that site is 100% funded by a manufacturer.

I just checked out the iScoliosis site, it's a site for young patients. It's what you'd read in a medical pamphlet. Not interested, sorry.

[livingtwisted]

Interesting. If anything, you might say this site was supported by the manufacturers of the Spinecor brace. That's much closer to the truth, as far as I know, than saying that device manufacturers support the NSF.

Are you able to share with us who the main supporters of NSF are? Do you have that information? Is it publicly available somewhere?

[hdugger]

You might try writing to the foundation itself - NSF@scoliosis.org. Linda isn't a formal representative, I don't think. She just moderates the forum.

My sense is that the anti-non-surgery bent is purely social dynamics. I don't think it has anything to do with any deliberate attempt to guide the forum in a particular direction.

That doesn't make it any less striking or monolithic - it just means that it's not part of some master plan. It's just the way things happened to shake out, given the nature of the dominant participants.

[Pooka1]

You might try writing to the foundation itself - NSF@scoliosis.org. Linda isn't a formal representative, I don't think. She just moderates the forum.

My sense is that the anti-non-surgery bent is purely social dynamics. I don't think it has anything to do with any deliberate attempt to guide the forum in a particular direction.

That doesn't make it any less striking or monolithic - it just means that it's not part of some master plan. It's just the way things happened to shake out, given the nature of the dominant participants.

So you are going to sit there and claim NONE of it is driven by evidence and that it is ALL driven by the random vagaries of the participants?

Some people are driven by evidence and intellectual honesty. That often goes unrecognized in a country like the US for obvious reasons.

I could care less who is supporting this forum. Ballet mom's CLAIM was that certain players, me included, are accepting payola to say X, Y, and Z.

I CLAIM you don't need to be a psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist to say that is a paranoid delusion.

Next.

[Pooka1]

jrnyc,

I don't have any proof, but let's try common sense...

Let's get the claims straight. Ballet Mom's claim is that I am accepting payola to say X, Y, and Z as opposed to a lay parent simply being acquainted with the state of the evidence (like all those wacky, "mind-controlling" surgeons at those 26 facilities). If that is true then why haven't I seen one thin dime of that money?

[Ballet Mom]

Anybody remember Esscurve? She was a Masters Student studying Corporate Communication with a focus on health care at Rutgers University. She has a blog called esscurve.blogspot.com. Her last post is very interesting and enlightening. I will post part of it here:


Tuesday, November 10, 2009
Social Media & Health Care Conference

Last Tuesday (Nov, 3, 2009) I attended a conference about “Social Media & Health Care” held here in New Brunswick, NJ. The participants were predominantly (not exclusively) employees from the Johnson & Johnson umbrella of companies but from various departments (marketing, communication, product development, legal, financial etc.). The conference was focused on how companies are engaging online, how they can do more and better in the future, and how they can take advantage of this new communication opportunity in “good taste”.

The speeches began with Ray Jordon, Corporate Vice President of Public Affairs and Corporate Communication at J&J who listed some vital statistics:

61 % of Americans search for health information online
60 % of those seek information from people like themselves (lay people) - not professionals
56 % of those that searched online changed their medical approach due to their research and
53 % of those that searched would ask their doctors about information they found online or would seek a second opinion.

He went on to discuss how this change in “corporate credibility” was an opportunity worth addressing. To help companies better understand the challenges when attempting to communicate to the masses on an individual level (he was referring to the fragmentation of users online) several guest speakers were brought to share their insight. Two of which are “Patient Bloggers”, meaning regular people that host their own blog (sometimes with a forum), that talks about living life with their condition.

Kerri Morrone Sparling, has Type 1 Diabetes and writes on SixUntilMe.com, and Jenni Prokopy has chronic pain (and a stream of other conditions) and writes on ChronicBabe.com.

Both expressed a desire for more credible medical sources to be available online. They were not opposed to the involvement of medical companies in online education; they simply stated that it “needs to be done the right way”.

Both bloggers had over 10,000 viewers monthly and complained that many of their readers use Google to search for information, although it has been proven that often the first search results are often not from medically reliable sources.

They both experienced companies getting involved in their blog the wrong way. If companies are simply there to tap into a consumer market, they will be quickly detected and removed from the site. According to them, the manner of speech and frequency of involvement are dead give-aways.

Their advice:For companies to properly get involved, they need to be honest. They should first contact the moderator, be transparent about the company their work for and their intentions on participating in the forum. They need to dedicate time on reading up on the history and getting to know the active members. Companies should participate in existent threads and share insight on many topics (not just the temporary scope of their business). The opportunities are there and welcomed! Creating a face and personality to a corporation is unquantifiable. Patients will better trust the brand and companies will better understand the needs of their customers.You can read the rest of the post and her blog here:

http://esscurve.blogspot.com/2009/11/social-media-health-care-conference-nov.html

[Ballet Mom]

So you are going to sit there and claim NONE of it is driven by evidence and that it is ALL driven by the random vagaries of the participants?

Some people are driven by evidence and intellectual honesty. That often goes unrecognized in a country like the US for obvious reasons.

I could care less who is supporting this forum. Ballet mom's CLAIM was that certain players, me included, are accepting payola to say X, Y, and Z.

I CLAIM you don't need to be a psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist to say that is a paranoid delusion.

Next.

Perhaps you're working in a university...lots of fellow travelers there.

How do you know that the Braist study is finished? What's your inside source of info? Interesting that an uninterested lay person would have access to that information.

[Ballet Mom]

Let's get the claims straight. Ballet Mom's claim is that I am accepting payola to say X, Y, and Z as opposed to a lay parent simply being acquainted with the state of the evidence (like all those wacky, "mind-controlling" surgeons at those 26 facilities). If that is true then why haven't I seen one thin dime of that money?

I never said you accepted money. Paranoid much. You have too much fun spouting the party line, no doubt you do it for fun and excitement.

[hdugger]

So you are going to sit there and claim NONE of it is driven by evidence and that it is ALL driven by the random vagaries of the participants?

I spent several months *not* posting on this forum after I first discovered it because I was so put off by the fist fights in the non-surgical and research areas. I waded in because my son needed me to, but nothing short of that would have made me participate.

I'm no discussion forum neophyte - I evaluate these things for a living - and it takes alot to make me shy away. But the social dynamics were *so* off in those forums that I realized it would cost me some peace of mind to participate.

None of that unpleasant dynamic has anything to do with people presenting evidence or rationally discussing their various points of view. The exact same information could be interchanged more clearly and succinctly without the heat. It has everything to do with an unhealthy social dynamic that's taken root, and which everyone would benefit from having rooted out.

[LindaRacine]

Are you able to share with us who the main supporters of NSF are? Do you have that information? Is it publicly available somewhere?

I imagine that the information is available from public records, if one is inclined to look. As far as I know, there are no corporate sponsors who are implant manufacturers. The vast majority of donations come from private individuals.

[livingtwisted]

I spent several months *not* posting on this forum after I first discovered it because I was so put off by the fist fights in the non-surgical and research areas. I waded in because my son needed me to, but nothing short of that would have made me participate.

I'm no discussion forum neophyte - I evaluate these things for a living - and it takes alot to make me shy away. But the social dynamics were *so* off in those forums that I realized it would cost me some peace of mind to participate.

None of that unpleasant dynamic has anything to do with people presenting evidence or rationally discussing their various points of view. The exact same information could be interchanged more clearly and succinctly without the heat. It has everything to do with an unhealthy social dynamic that's taken root, and which everyone would benefit from having rooted out.

Great post! I'm afraid a lot people have not stayed for this very reason.

[livingtwisted]

I imagine that the information is available from public records, if one is inclined to look. As far as I know, there are no corporate sponsors who are implant manufacturers. The vast majority of donations come from private individuals.

Thank you.

[jrnyc]

Linda Racine was kind enough to answer me privately, and tell me what she just wrote here...that this forum is not supported by "medical device companies"...
i believe her...i trust her integrity, and the integrity of this forum....

i think it is unkind and overly suspicious to assume that "medical device companies" support this forum, just because some can just not believe that private folks, touched by scoli themselves, (or who have family members or friends touched by scoli)...would support this forum...
that is exactly what i believe...that those private folks are concerned enough to give their assistance and support

i do not believe there is lying going on...i think that is an insult to the integrity of those who work so hard for this forum!

that is my personal opinion...

jess

[Pooka1]

Great post! I'm afraid a lot people have not stayed for this very reason.

If evolution deniers don't stay on a biology forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

If astrologers don't stay on an astronomy forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

If faith healers don't stay on a medicine forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

If Holocaust deniers don't stay on a history forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

The people interested in evidence hopefully stay and that is what matters.

What you see here is a miniature of the larger problem out there of evidence versus faith as ways of knowing. What you see here is medicine versus folkmedicine. It is always the same problem. Can't get away from it. Look at the research section which has become a playground to state any random counterfactual material that pops into one's head. There is no means with which to tether it to reality.

You can either lay down and take it or apply conversational pressure for folks to start making sense.

[Ballet Mom]

If evolution deniers don't stay on a biology forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

If astrologers don't stay on an astronomy forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

If faith healers don't stay on a medicine forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

If Holocaust deniers don't stay on a history forum is that a good thing or a bad thing?

The people interested in evidence hopefully stay and that is what matters.

What you see here is a miniature of the larger problem out there of evidence versus faith as ways of knowing. What you see here is medicine versus folkmedicine. It is always the same problem. Can't get away from it. Look at the research section which has become a playground to state any random counterfactual material that pops into one's head. There is no means with which to tether it to reality.

You can either lay down and take it or apply conversational pressure for folks to start making sense.

I'm sure it was much more fun and exciting in the old evil empire where you could just throw people who didn't agree with you in mental institutions or gulags. I hear it's rising again....they need you back there. Although I think it's more a mafia state than ideological, so you won't need to waste time with the long, drawn out demise of people you don't like.

[mariaf]

interesting. If anything, you might say this site was supported by the manufacturers of the spinecor brace. That's much closer to the truth, as far as i know, than saying that device manufacturers support the nsf.

Do you like the iscoliosis site, balletmom? I believe that site is 100% funded by a manufacturer.

Linda beat me to the punch. I've been away for a few days, but I could not believe it when I read the claims being made that surgical device manufacturers might be supporting this site when in fact the president of NSF has such close ties to Spinecor.

[Ballet Mom]

I imagine that the information is available from public records, if one is inclined to look. As far as I know, there are no corporate sponsors who are implant manufacturers. The vast majority of donations come from private individuals.

Do you know what percentage of those donations coming from private individuals are from orthopedic surgeons?

Just curious.

[hdugger]

What you see here is a miniature of the larger problem out there of evidence versus faith as ways of knowing. What you see here is medicine versus folkmedicine. It is always the same problem. Can't get away from it. Look at the research section which has become a playground to state any random counterfactual material that pops into one's head. There is no means with which to tether it to reality.

I'm fairly certain that I'm not a denier of any stripe, and I found those sections almost impossible to participate in. The difficultly was not because of an excess of facts, but because of an excess of personal attacks.

Specifically, the conversations mostly stopped being about the issue at hand, and instead became a conversation about whether or not the participants had the skill/personal integrity/intelligence/etc to even *have* a conversation. That's not a fact-filled discussion. It's an attempt to make an end run around the facts by instead trying to disqualify the fact-bearers by any means available.

[hdugger]

Do you know what percentage of those donations coming from private individuals are from orthopedic surgeons?

Just curious.

I have no idea how the static content on this site is determined, but I've never seen a post deleted because it had anti-manufacturer content, and I have seen the one surgeon who posted here (with a strong manufacturing link) have his posts deleted.

[livingtwisted]

The people interested in evidence hopefully stay and that is what matters.

Personally I think what matters is that everyone who needs help gets it. If they are driven off before they can learn anything how is that a good thing? There is a way to have a healthy debate without completely demoralizing people.

[Pooka1]

Personally I think what matters is that everyone who needs help gets it. If they are driven off before they can learn anything how is that a good thing? There is a way to have a healthy debate without completely demoralizing people.

Actually, there are some subjects wherein there is no acceptable way to criticize ideas that desperately need criticism. There is no way to word the evidence or to point out a lack of evidence. Social taboos stand in the way. Progress is impossible in those cases.

There are some here who are demonstrably NOT interested in facts and evidence. I suggest they will never get the help they need.

[jrnyc]

i don't know that anyone is "anti manufacturing"

i just want to know who is who and what, if anything, they stand to gain if they post here...or if they work making money off those suffering with scoli...
i think people like to know if someone has a hidden agenda going on...
like being a manufacturer of rods or braces, or being a surgeon...
that isn't "anti" anything..just a desire for full disclosure...

jess

[Pooka1]

i don't know that anyone is "anti manufacturing"

i just want to know who is who and what, if anything, they stand to gain if they post here...or if they work making money off those suffering with scoli...
i think people like to know if someone has a hidden agenda going on...
like being a manufacturer of rods or braces, or being a surgeon...
that isn't "anti" anything..just a desire for full disclosure...

jess

Yes exactly. That is why Smith was treated so harshly. And rightly so.

[Ballet Mom]

i don't know that anyone is "anti manufacturing"

i just want to know who is who and what, if anything, they stand to gain if they post here...or if they work making money off those suffering with scoli...
i think people like to know if someone has a hidden agenda going on...
like being a manufacturer of rods or braces, or being a surgeon...
that isn't "anti" anything..just a desire for full disclosure...

jess

I agree completely.

I had assumed that this site was probably funded by medical device companies because they were funding so many other scoliosis sites.

I now wonder about whether surgeons are funding it, for the most part, because it was my daughter's original surgeon who sent us to this site. So perhaps they have set it up to help patients become comfortable with having surgery. Which is fine, but if there is such a motive, it should be out in the open so others aren't just drummed off of the site unceremoniously for searching out information on conservative treatments.

[jrnyc]

i have never felt "drummed off" for searching for conservative treatments...i have not chosen surgery...yet...or have chosen it and changed my mind repeatedly...but have never felt pressured NOT to search for less than surgical solutions...
and i was not referred here by a surgeon...i found this site when searching scoli info on the internet...

that may not be your experience on this site.....but it has been my experience...

jess

[hdugger]

I haven't seen any push back for alternative pain treatments, so you probably would not have noticed anything with your treatments. The push back seems to be against alternative treatments aimed at halting curve progression.

[mariaf]

I had assumed that this site was probably funded by medical device companies because they were funding so many other scoliosis sites.

I now wonder about whether surgeons are funding it, for the most part, because it was my daughter's original surgeon who sent us to this site. So perhaps they have set it up to help patients become comfortable with having surgery. Which is fine, but if there is such a motive, it should be out in the open so others aren't just drummed off of the site unceremoniously for searching out information on conservative treatments.

First of all, one should never assume, as you did about medical device companies funding this site, which I believe we have determined they do not.

Please don't ASS-U-ME that surgeons are funding it either. Especially since you are basing that assumption solely on the fact that a surgeon mentioned it.

Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be spending a lot of time wondering about who funds this site - Have you ever wondered if the folks at Spinecor are funding it since the President of NSF has such close ties to that brace?

Or are they exempt from the assumptions and speculation that medical device companies and surgeons were subjected to??

[hdugger]

Based on the locked down threads and the treatment of the adult Spincor wearer on the site, if Spinecor has been funding this site, I think they should demand their money back :)

[Ballet Mom]

First of all, one should never assume, as you did about medical device companies funding this site, which I believe we have determined they do not.

Please don't ASS-U-ME that surgeons are funding it either. Especially since you are basing that assumption solely on the fact that a surgeon mentioned it.

Just out of curiosity, since you seem to be spending a lot of time wondering about who funds this site - Have you ever wondered if the folks at Spinecor are funding it since the President of NSF has such close ties to that brace?

Or are they exempt from the assumptions and speculation that medical device companies and surgeons were subjected to??

I had assumed the medical device manufacturers PROBABLY funded it and there were some good reasons to possibly think that. There's a difference.

I'm not ASSUMING that doctors are funding it either. That's why I asked the question...and am noticeably still waiting for an answer. People can make their own assumptions based on whether an answer appears or not. It's a valid question, especially when this site allows the dynamics on it that are allowed.

I agree with hdugger on the Spinecor funding of this site. It is hard for me to believe. I agree they should get their money back, and tort damages for the intentional infliction of emotional distress for the poor people who have been harassed for trying to participate in the non-surgical portions of this site.

[mariaf]

It's a valid question, especially when this site allows the dynamics on it that are allowed.

What the site 'allows' is for people to express their opinions, experiences and beliefs about various treatment methods - whether they are similar or different from our own. Sounds fair to me.

[mariaf]

I agree with hdugger on the Spinecor funding of this site. It is hard for me to believe.

So, then, in answer to my original question, you are saying that unlike surgeons and medical device companies, the Spinecor makers HAVE been exempt from your speculations about who might be funding this site?

[Pooka1]

I'm not conceding a damn thing about being on someone's, anyone's payroll until I actually get paid. (smiley face)

[hdugger]

I want the university which issued my Masters in Public Health to pay me *not* to reveal their name :)

[Pooka1]

I want the university which issued my Masters in Public Health to pay me *not* to reveal their name :)

LOL. I think some of my colleagues might be shocked at how far afield I have gone. Without a net I mean. One course in biochem is no net.

[Ballet Mom]

What the site 'allows' is for people to express their opinions, experiences and beliefs about various treatment methods - whether they are similar or different from our own. Sounds fair to me.

What this site allows for is the usual vicious pack to harass other people who don't think like them and try to drive them off the board in a thunder of denunciation and humiliation...unless you're a potential surgical candidate and then it's all love and light and hugs and kisses.

You'd think that someone who is so bothered by conservative scoliosis treatments could just stay out of the non-surgical portions of the forum.

[Pooka1]

What this site allows for is the usual vicious pack to harass other people who don't think like them and try to drive them off the board in a thunder of denunciation and humiliation...

That's what the evolution deniers and Holocaust deniers whine about also.

[jrnyc]

i have no problem with conservative or otherwise treatments...
to each their own...

i don't think it helps to keep talking about being attacked, when i don't see anyone attacking...

i think people express their opinions and experiences here, and some consider certain tx to be ineffective...but that is their opinion...

what they say in 12 step is..."take what you like, and leave the rest"

happy new year
jess

[Ballet Mom]

So, then, in answer to my original question, you are saying that unlike surgeons and medical device companies, the Spinecor makers HAVE been exempt from your speculations about who might be funding this site?

I'm not sure why you like to try and play "gotcha".

I believe Linda told us that Spinecor was the major funder of this site, and then later stated to us that private donors were the major funders of this site. Obviously, if Spinecor is a donor at all to this site anymore, it is a minor portion.

If we're going to play these types of games, how about we expand the definition of "medical device" companies to any health companies involved in scoliosis to include molecular diagnostics companies, biotech firms and any others that may not fall under the heading of medical device manufacturers and ensure that any donations are included such as stocks and stock options etc.

[Ballet Mom]

That's what the evolution deniers and Holocaust deniers whine about also.

Case in point.

[Pooka1]

People who are pushing counterfactual positions only have whining because they can't counter with facts.

That's a clue that a position is counterfactual.

[Pooka1]

If we're going to play these types of games, how about we expand the definition of "medical device" companies to any health companies involved in scoliosis to include molecular diagnostics companies, biotech firms and any others that may not fall under the heading of medical device manufacturers and ensure that any donations are included such as stocks and stock options etc.

This continues to be irrelevant until you pony up any evidence that anyone is being paid to post here.

[LindaRacine]

I believe Linda told us that Spinecor was the major funder of this site,

I never stated that.

[Ballet Mom]

Interesting. If anything, you might say this site was supported by the manufacturers of the Spinecor brace. That's much closer to the truth, as far as I know, than saying that device manufacturers support the NSF.

Do you like the iScoliosis site, Balletmom? I believe that site is 100% funded by a manufacturer.

I believe this was the comment.

[Pooka1]

I believe Linda told us that Spinecor was the major funder of this site,


I never stated that.

This is the type of thing we see over and over and over and over again.

[LindaRacine]

How does one get from "If anything, you might say this site was supported by the manufacturers of the Spinecor brace." to "I believe Linda told us that Spinecor was the major funder of this site,"

This really points out the danger of using the internet for medical advice. People read into others' words, what they want.

[LindaRacine]

In case there's still a question in anyone's mind about this issue, let me say that I have never been paid a single cent by anyone, to steer people towards or away from any treatment option. And, while the NSF may get donations from individuals or companies who have financial interest in various treatment options (although I have no knowledge of such), such donations would never trickle down to me as a volunteer, or anyone else who posts here.

[jrnyc]

i, for one, have no doubts about your integrity, Linda, or the integrity of this forum...
and i thank you for your time, energy, and devotion to this site...for no pay, and for only the satisfaction it must give you (most of the time) and the thanks of most of us! you and the forum help many people, from many places, with many levels of pain...

happy new year to you...and a pain free one, i hope
jess

[mariaf]

I'm not sure why you like to try and play "gotcha".

Nobody is playing anything, unless that is what you call wanting an answer to a simple question, which I believe you have still managed to avoid.

As you have done time and time again with Pooka, you insist on making things personal in an attempt to change the subject or when you have no answer.

[mamamax]

I haven't seen any push back for alternative pain treatments, so you probably would not have noticed anything with your treatments. The push back seems to be against alternative treatments aimed at halting curve progression.

Exactly. And God (or any other major deity) forbid that someone talk about cobb angle reduction without instrumentation. Thanks to SEAS, Hawes, Weiss, CLEAR - and a handful of orthopedic surgeons .... the concept is no longer considered taboo. I suspect that in the not too distant future we will hear more voices in support of non surgical means that improve quality of life. Something we all seek. So the future looks promising in this area. There will always be circumstances when surgery is the best of all options, for this we are fortunate for modern methods. Seeking improved quality of life should be unifying (it would seem), regardless of method and without undue or over dramatic debate and/or critical judgment. I guess that is in the perfect world that does not exist. Things are changing and changing rapidly however and SOSORT shifting to results oriented methods will be a major player as time goes by.

[hdugger]

I guess that is in the perfect world that does not exist. Things are changing and changing rapidly however and SOSORT shifting to results oriented methods will be a major player as time goes by.


I in the midst of discussing with the SEAS people how one would enter their clinic. I'm not sure how it will play out, or if my son will be interested down the road, but it's an option I'd like to keep open.

(BTW, and completely parenthetically, we're also working on getting dual Italian/American citizenship, through my grandfather. So, maybe we'll visit the clinic as citizens.)

Hope all is well with you and yours.

[LindaRacine]

Do you know what percentage of those donations coming from private individuals are from orthopedic surgeons?

Just curious.

I have no clue as to reality, but I'd be shocked if it was anything substantial. Scoliosis specialists who are charitable tend to give their money to the Scoliosis Research Society. You might ask Joe O'Brien, President of the NSF.

[Ballet Mom]

I have no clue as to reality, but I'd be shocked if it was anything substantial. Scoliosis specialists who are charitable tend to give their money to the Scoliosis Research Society. You might ask Joe O'Brien, President of the NSF.

Thank you Linda. I hope you know that I am not accusing you of anything. I was curious as to the organization itself, because I know that organizations are swayed by their major donors who carry lots of clout. Especially non-profits.

[LindaRacine]

Thank you Linda. I hope you know that I am not accusing you of anything. I was curious as to the organization itself, because I know that organizations are swayed by their major donors who carry lots of clout. Especially non-profits.
As far as I know, Joe O'Brien is the only paid employee of the NSF, and he rarely participates in the forums. When Joe has participated, if anything, has shown a relatively strong bias toward non-surgical modalities. Not everyone has an ulterior motive.

[Pooka1]

The group of posters here is in no sense an "organization." NSF is an organization that has no connection to the posters which is obviously a random set of bunnies who either have scoliosis or have a relative with scolisois. The one exception is we are lucky to have a muscle physiology rsearcher here and we briefly had a CLEAR chiro.

The set of donors is not identical to the set of posters. The donors have no contact with the posters to my knowledge which completely accounts for why none of the posters nor even Linda knows who they heck the donors are. It is IRRELEVANT in the extreme who the donors are in terms of what gets posted here. Obviously.

There is no connection between what is advocated by the donors and what is posted in the forum except by chance. Very obviously.

"I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member." -- Groucho Marx.

[Karen Ocker]

I was invited to donate by the Scoliosis Association and I did--- to help keep the forum going.

[Pooka1]

I was invited to donate by the Scoliosis Association and I did--- to help keep the forum going.

That was kind of you. I should have stated there is of course some overlap between the donors and posters but there is no coercion by the former over the latter nor is there even any contact whatsoever when donors are not posters also.

Suggestions otherwise are imaginary. Further, there is not one rational reason to even suspect they could possibly be true. None. The opinions on this forum are all over the map. It's a moving target. The evidence, when extant, is not so scattered but some posters do not feel tethered to the evidence or lack thereof.

And I just want to say there is not one scintilla of evidence Joe O'Brien tries to control the post content of this site. Not one. Moreover he has handled at least one situation that I know of with utmost fairness and as against apparent interest. This is to his great credit.

[LindaRacine]

For the record, the Scoliosis Association is a different non-profit. The National Scoliosis Foundation is the owner of this forum.

[Karen Ocker]

For the record, the Scoliosis Association is a different non-profit. The National Scoliosis Foundation is the owner of this forum.

Thank you Linda,
I stand corrected.

[flerc]

I need to know the outcomes in someone around 20 or 30 years old with a significant reduction coeficiente ((degrees lying down -degrees standing up)/ degrees standing up)*100), over 30% before the treatment. It’s really very important for me to know that. I’m seriously evaluating the Spincor for my daughter. It’s not an easy decision because we’ll have to travel to another country.
Thanks in advance.

[darrin90]

I want to wear the SpineCor Brace, but I leave in Norway and there are basically no treatment centers located in my country. Do I have to travel to Great Britain or some other country to get treated, or is it possible to take measurements and tests in Norway, and than send that info to a foreign treatment center, so that they can send the brace by DHL or Fedex? I'm a very bussy man, leaving with daily pain, so a conservative treatment for my hypokyphosis and scoliosis would be preferable. Please reply!

[flerc]

It’s impossible to send the Spinecor. It must to be adapted. That is what they said to me. Do you know if you have a significant reduction coefficient?

[Pooka1]

I want to wear the SpineCor Brace, but I live in Norway and there are basically no treatment centers located in my country. Do I have to travel to Great Britain or some other country to get treated, or is it possible to take measurements and tests in Norway, and then send that info to a foreign treatment center, so that they can send the brace by DHL or Fedex? I'm a very busy man, living with daily pain, so a conservative treatment for my hypokyphosis and scoliosis would be preferable. Please reply!

Can you find a physical therapist who can work with rehabilitation patients? Maybe a sports medicine doctor? Maybe there is someone who can give you exercises that will help with your pain. Exercises may be the best answer to decreasing or removing your pain.

You are very lucky to live in Norway!

1. Norway is the happiest country in the world.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41352791/ns/travel-destination_travel/

2. Norway is the most prosperous country in the world.
http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/norway-denmark-finland-business-washington-world-happiest-countries.html

What's the most prosperous country in the world? Norway. What's it got that the rest of the world doesn't? The biggest bump comes from having the world's highest per capita GDP of $53,000 a year. Norwegians have the second-highest level of satisfaction with their standards of living: 95% say they are satisfied with the freedom to choose the direction of their lives; an unparalleled 74% say other people can be trusted.

3. Also, Norway is the fourth least religious country in the world.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114211/alabamians-iranians-common.aspx

I hope that cheered you up a little.

[flerc]

Darrin I believe that 40º is not a big curve, but if you think that is provoking the pain, if you reduce your curve, you'll reduce your pain. At least it sounds logic. If you have a flexible spine, then maybe that the Spincor keep an important reduction of the curve, but of course some other kind of solutions could help you. May be postural disciplines as Alexander, Eutonia or Feldenkrais or some treatments like Rolfing or Rpg, Myofascial release, Pnf..

Good luck and please let me know if you decide to use the Spinecor.

[darrin90]

Can you find a physical therapist who can work with rehabilitation patients? Maybe a sports medicine doctor? Maybe there is someone who can give you exercises that will help with your pain. Exercises may be the best answer to decreasing or removing your pain.

You are very lucky to live in Norway!

1. Norway is the happiest country in the world.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41352791/ns/travel-destination_travel/

2. Norway is the most prosperous country in the world.
http://www.forbes.com/2011/01/19/norway-denmark-finland-business-washington-world-happiest-countries.html


3. Also, Norway is the fourth least religious country in the world.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114211/alabamians-iranians-common.aspx

I hope that cheered you up a little.

I already worked with a physical therapist for 1 year with various excercises, but it didn't help much on my pain. The reason for this is that my pain is not muscle related, but its related to the curvature of my spine. The scoliosis in the coronal plane might not be the biggest problem, but my lack on cervical- thoracic- and lumbar- curves in the sagittal plane (I got hypokyphosis and my neck and lower back curves is to small to balance my back) is a huge problem, and ortopedic doctors tend to ignore this problem.

[Pooka1]

I already worked with a physical therapist for 1 year with various excercises, but it didn't help much on my pain. The reason for this is that my pain is not muscle related, but its related to the curvature of my spine. The scoliosis in the coronal plane might not be the biggest problem, but my lack on cervical- thoracic- and lumbar- curves in the sagittal plane (I got hypokyphosis and my neck and lower back curves is to small to balance my back) is a huge problem, and ortopedic doctors tend to ignore this problem.

Okay if it isn't muscle then it is nerve pain, yes? Reading this forum I have learned that there are specific drugs for nerve pain. I hope someone who knows will comment.

Has a surgeon ever told you that your pain might go away if you get a fusion that restores your kyphosis and lordosis?

[rohrer01]

I have what also feels like bone pain. Ultimately, it's all nerve pain since it is the nervous system that tells us that we have "pain". My knowledge is limited, but finding a brace that would correct in all planes would be difficult, since it would make sense that the natural kyphosis and lordosis could only be restored when the curve is reduced. Then you would still have issues with painful bones and pinches nerves if there were disc wedging and an unnatural pressure being put on these wedged discs and ultimately the nerve roots. Just my layperson thought... If they could come up with a brace that could address all these concerns, I think we would all be wearing them... ;-)

[rohrer01]

Gabapentin is supposed to be aimed at relieving nerve pain. It was originally developed as an anti-seizure medication, but is now used for nerve pain. At least this is what I was told by my physician.

[flerc]

I think that flexibility is the key.. and of course vertebra deformation should not be very big.
Suppose your curve is reduced a 35% when you are lying down. Why you cannot keep a 25% of reduction being stand up? I think that proof can be done at home.

[rohrer01]

I have had both standing and lying x-rays in the past. The curve magnitude does not change by more than 2 degrees. I guess I'm not flexible.

[flerc]

I think that flexibility can be reached following specific therapies. I’ll not be surprised if then, the difference will be much greater.

[hdugger]

The idea of holding your "base" curve when standing is also key with the SEAS people.

They have a picture here - http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/3/1/20/figure/F7

The basic idea is that the contribution of the three components (muscle, ligament, and bone) can be measured, respectively by:

* Measuring while standing (muscle contribution)
* Measuring while lying (ligament contribution)
* Measuring while lying in brace (bone contribution)

I *think* (but I'm not certain) that they aim their exercise only at the muscle component. I'm not certain how people get to the ligament component.

Roher, I think that having your curve not reduce when you lie down may just show that your muscles are strong. That is, they hold your body in the same configuration even when you're fighting gravity. But, that's pure hypothesis.

My son has a marked increase in his curve as the day goes on. I'm guessing, again, that that means that his muscles aren't all that strong.

I do wonder how doctors can compare curves across patients when the muscles play such a big role. Is my son's curve the one he has in the morning? Or the one he has by the end of the day?

[flerc]

Roher, I think that having your curve not reduce when you lie down may just show that your muscles are strong. That is, they hold your body in the same configuration even when you're fighting gravity. But, that's pure hypothesis.


Maybe muscles of one side are stronger (high tone) that the other and shorter.


My son has a marked increase in his curve as the day goes on. I'm guessing, again, that that means that his muscles aren't all that strong.

Maybe muscles of one side are not stronger (high tone) that the other or shorter.

Maybe gravity force has not find any kind of resistance while standing. In a normal back, that kind of resistance against gravity force in the frontal plane is not developed by muscles. Make the proof and you'll see.

[darrin90]

Okay if it isn't muscle then it is nerve pain, yes? Reading this forum I have learned that there are specific drugs for nerve pain. I hope someone who knows will comment.

Has a surgeon ever told you that your pain might go away if you get a fusion that restores your kyphosis and lordosis?

Yes, as posted in an other thread earlier, my pain is probably nerve related. The answer to your question is no, because no doctor has ever told me that my lack of kyphosis and lordosis is causing my pain. The specialist mentioned that I had kyfose (kyphosis in english), but didn't say anything about pain.

[flerc]

Maybe gravity force has not find any kind of resistance while standing. In a normal back, that kind of resistance against gravity force in the frontal plane is not developed by muscles. Make the proof and you'll see.

Hudger, it don’t means that strengtheners muscular methods as SEAS and Schroth could not work. I don´t know the difference between both methods but I think that could shorten the longest muscles, and of course it should to help. Specially derotatory excercises should to work.

Good luck with your son!

[Writer]

Darrin et al., if you're in Europe the best source of references to a Schroth therapist near you, who can almost certainly help relieve your pain fairly soon, is the clinic where most of them were trained. http://www.skoliose.com

[darrin90]

Darrin et al., if you're in Europe the best source of references to a Schroth therapist near you, who can almost certainly help relieve your pain fairly soon, is the clinic where most of them were trained. http://www.skoliose.com

Thx for the tip Writer, I just sent an email to the center.

[jrnyc]

hi Darrin
i was told that a lot of the injections work for nerve related pain...so if that is part of your problem, perhaps some injections might help you...?
some injections haven't worked for me because my problems have a lot of structural elements to them...with some nerve stuff thrown in...
i also cannot expect to gain any flexibility due to those same structural problems...
and the bending X rays the surgeon did were a revelation...without gravity, i found out how NOT flexible i really am! quite a shock...to see how much difference gravity makes!

jess

[guarninna]

The scope of pharmacy practice includes a lot more standard roles these as compounding and dispensing medications, and it also includes alot more fashionable providers associated to health and fitness treatment, including clinical services, reviewing medications for security and efficacy, and giving Buy Soma (http://www.buysomanowonline.com) knowledge. Pharmacists, as a result, are the authorities on drug therapy and are the main health and wellbeing industry experts who optimize medicine use to offer patients with good wellness outcomes.

[Nic]

Roher, I am just skimming through this thread so I hope I am not repeating someone. I was just diagnosed with scoliosis last month. Along with this diagnosis, the doctor told me I had very low Vitamin D. I live in the South(USA) and am outside everyday, drink milk every morning with my muesli. Still trying to determine cause of low Vitamin D...
BUT a symptom low Vitamin D is pain, specifically bone pain. Worth being tested maybe? Unless you already have.

http://www.webmd.com/diet/vitamin-d-deficiency

[mamamax]

The scope of pharmacy practice includes a lot more standard roles these as compounding and dispensing medications, and it also includes alot more fashionable providers associated to health and fitness treatment, including clinical services, reviewing medications for security and efficacy, and giving Buy Soma (http://www.buysomanowonline.com) knowledge. Pharmacists, as a result, are the authorities on drug therapy and are the main health and wellbeing industry experts who optimize medicine use to offer patients with good wellness outcomes.

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[LindaRacine]

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