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SUSANNA FREDERI
10-20-2008, 07:49 PM
Hello everybody,
My daughter was diognosed with scoliosis at age 10, and we went through physical therapy, acupuncture, massage, osteopatic treatment, watsu and Spinecor bracing in 3 years. But nothing seemed to be effective.
After wearing Spinecor brace for 23 hours a day for a year, which was a torture for my daughter, her condition got worse, though a doctor in Studio City,CA promissed a miracle. Degree of her cirve doubled. I had no other choice but to travel to Europe to find an alternative to surgery that was recommended by 4 different orthopedic doctors here in the United States.
We found Dr.Weiss in Germany, who developed his grandmother's Katarina Schroth alternative method of treatment, using physical and breathing exercises and bracing. He uses original Cheneau brace and his own Light version of Cheneau brace which is very easy to wear. We were lucky to find Grant Wood in San Mateo, CA who can adjust the brace when it needs to be adjusted, since children grow fast. I saw many children in Germany and Russia who improved their condition 50% after wearing the brace for 6 months. Yes, it takes years, but it works. And it is better than surgery.

txmarinemom
10-20-2008, 08:17 PM
... I saw many children in Germany and Russia who improved their condition 50% after wearing the brace for 6 months. Yes, it takes years, but it works.

I'm confused. Does it take 6 months, or years? I'd love to see the long term studies. Surely you have them if you claim such definitives ... ?

Anything is preferable to surgery (on that we can agree), but from what I've seen, there is NO long term proof the Cheneau is any more effective than a Boston, Milwaukee, Spinecor, Providence, Charleston, et al.

In fact ... more curiousity on my part ... if Schroth works so well, why do they supplement with a brace?

Regards,
Pam

Pooka1
10-20-2008, 09:16 PM
I saw many children in Germany and Russia who improved their condition 50% after wearing the brace for 6 months. Yes, it takes years, but it works. And it is better than surgery.

I take it you saw their radiographs? You can't eyeball "50% improvement."

How many sets of before/after radiographs did you see?

mamandcrm
01-10-2009, 03:14 PM
Hi, I don't post much but this thread just caught my eye. My daughter just started wearing a Rigo-Cheneau brace a month ago. We had a hard time deciding what path to take for her but after talking to the parents of several patients (braced in the U.S.) who are wearing the brace we decided to try it. Their children experienced a 50% or more reduction of their curves in about a 1 1/2 year period, some less, confirmed by out of brace x-rays. The reduction occurred gradually over the course of that time. Most continue to wear the brace at night, which after full-time brace wear, is not so bad. Not everyone has this success, but it seems like for many it is at least promising. I have not heard of such results associated with any other brace. Time will tell whether it works for our child.

bas2101
01-11-2009, 08:30 AM
Hi-

My daughter also wears the Rigo-Cheneau brace and does Schroth. We had tried many treatments beforehand, and while I am not sure if they had any benefit, this is the first treatment that she said "felt right." It is also the first treatment in which she is more aligned. According to scoliometer readings, after 4 months, she also has had a reduction in rotation. She gets a 50% correction in brace, but we have yet to get out of brace x-rays. She has been wearing the brace and doing Schroth for the last year.

Best of luck to your daughter,

brooke

mamandcrm
01-11-2009, 09:16 AM
My daughter is too young for the the Schroth therapy--she would not be able to sustain the mental or physical discipline for it I'm told by her orthotist. When she's older we'll research it if the Rigo-Cheneau works or is working for her. Although I know it really tells me nothing I am amazed by how straight her spine looks when she takes her new brace off. We haven't had the in-brace xray yet so I don't know what kind of correction she's getting but, boy, it is night and day from my last look (at her last appointment) where it was like a snake. Just curious, is there a reason why has your daughter not yet had an out-of-brace x-ray if she's been in it for a year? We are relatively new to this, but I thought the general protocol was out of brace x-rays every 4-5 months. Thanks for your thoughts...

Chris

bas2101
01-11-2009, 09:25 AM
Chris-

I agree that Schroth could be difficult for a 10 year old. My daughter is 13, and I do not think she would have been disciplined enough to do Schroth at 10 years old. Although I wish I had been more aware of the Cheneau brace back then.

Best to you-
brooke

BBROWN
01-18-2009, 11:16 AM
My daughter (she is 7 years old) is also in the Rigo-Cheneau. Her curve was about 30+ in May/June of '07. We were told to "wait and see" if her Chiari decompression surgery would help her spine self-correct (she had fluid in her spinal cord down to her T-11). Within four months, it progressed to about 45 degrees, even though the fluid worked its way out. I felt vulnerable and useless just waiting and doing nothing, so I did some research and tried the Pettibone procedure. This was very effective for my friend's teenage daugther, so I figured it couldn't hurt. This chiropractor suggested the Spin-cor, which we tried. By the time we got the ball rolling on this, she was due for more x-rays. In April of '08, her curve was 56 degrees.

The Spin-Cor was completely a waste of time. I understand from some of the testimonials I've read on here that it is successful in some instances. However, my daughter was only 6 years old and about 28-30 pounds. An ace bandage would've worked better for her! The Pettibone procedures also proved useless. The weight belts/headgear for the Pettibone were unrealistic for a >30lb. 6 year old. Not only that, but it was not a safe idea to weigh down her head onto her spine after having a Chiari decompression.

Again, feeling that I was letting my daughter down, I continued to read and research. We got the Rigo-Cheneau brace in June of '08 from Luke Stikeleather (who is an incredible man who I believe is "called" to do this work). Within five weeks, her in-brace x-rays were 34 degrees! Yes, I know some of you skeptics are thinking, "yeah, but that is in-brace, what about out of brace?"

We had out-of-brace x-rays, and in 6 months there is a 10 degree improvement. She still has a lot of room to grow, which will work to our advantage. If the 10 degree improvement is still not enough for the skeptics, at least think about the fact that her curve improved rather than getting worse (which is what happened with the other attempts).

We also went to Wisconsin to learn about the Scroth method. They usually don't recommend it for patients under 10, but we begged and pleaded for them to take us. It was amazing to see how much her back straightened out with the exercises. I have some photos that I will try to post. Yet, I can see why they felt she was too young. It takes a lot of discipline and self-awareness about her own body/muscles etc. Now that she has accepted and is accustomed to the brace, we are going to start implementing the therapy little by little.

I know that we all have unique situations. I just really think it is important to not only measure the curve, but to keep in mind the size and age of the patient. One must also take into consideration how much more the patient is expected to grow.

I wish all of you the best with your situations. I am thankful for this site so that we can all share. I hope my two cents is helpful for at least one person.

Bridget

Pooka1
01-18-2009, 11:55 AM
(snip)
Within five weeks, her in-brace x-rays were 34 degrees! Yes, I know some of you skeptics are thinking, "yeah, but that is in-brace, what about out of brace?"

We had out-of-brace x-rays, and in 6 months there is a 10 degree improvement. She still has a lot of room to grow, which will work to our advantage. If the 10 degree improvement is still not enough for the skeptics, at least think about the fact that her curve improved rather than getting worse (which is what happened with the other attempts).

There is no evidence that bracing doesn't work. It might work. The failure to show it works might be due entirely to poor study design to date.

I hope it works for your daughter.

mamandcrm
01-19-2009, 06:20 PM
My daughter also sees Luke (he is local to us). He is the sole reason she is not scheduled for VBS right now. I can't say that we won't still end up there, but his confidence, compassion, conviction regarding the brace, and his ability to back up what he says with "been there" patients who confirm it is persuasive. We are fortunate that we live near his practice.

Chris

bscoli
01-22-2009, 05:51 PM
Luke is one of few orthotists in the US trained in Rigo Cheneau bracing and is an excellent clinician. He works closely with many Schroth-certified physical therapists. Another Rigo Cheneau orthotist, Patrick Flanagan, lives in Illinois and provides services in Milwaukee at Spinal Dynamics in Wisconsin. More at: http://www.sdwpt.com/services/bracing-services.php

mamandcrm
01-27-2009, 01:19 PM
My daughter just had her in-brace x-ray in the Rigo-Cheneau which Luke made for her and she started wearing a month ago. Her curve measures 3 degrees in brace, down from 36 degrees out of brace. Yes, I know, it's in-brace, but it's still awesome.

christine2
01-27-2009, 03:06 PM
Mamandcrm

Excellent news.

mamandcrm
05-05-2009, 01:10 PM
I wasn't sure where to update for my daughter but I figured here would be best as this is where I've posted before. She had her first out of brace x-ray since getting the Rigo-Cheneau. She started wearing the brace 4 1/2 months ago and her curve at that time measured 35 degrees. She was out of brace for 46 hours prior to this current x-ray. Her curve now measures 28 degrees. We're pretty happy about that, margin of error and all.

concerned dad
05-05-2009, 02:03 PM
--diagnosed in 6/08, 25 degrees, Providence brace
--36 degrees in 12/08, Rigo-Cheneau full-time
--5/09 out of brace x-ray, 28 degrees

Thanks for the update.
I have a question if you feel like sharing: I've been trying to understand the whole inbrace/out of brace xray thing. I understand the basics (I think). Looking at your signature info, did the 36 degree reading in 12/08 occur out of brace? Was this an indication that the Providence (night time ) brace wasnt as effective as you hoped and you then decided to switch to Cheneau?
I wonder if you recall the inbrace correction of the Providence. I would have guessed that they shot for close to 100% correction. If that is the case, it must have been a shock to go from close to 0 inbrace to the 36 last December. (assuming I am interpreting these numbers correctly).

( suppose I should probably put a signature file with my daughters info too. These are helpful to follow along. )

mamandcrm
05-05-2009, 02:13 PM
Hi Concerned Dad, no I don't mind sharing. The 36 degrees was out of brace. She had been wearing the Providence for 5+ months I think. Her correction in the Providence was documented at 6 degrees, but then the orthotist adjusted it some more after the x-ray, and I would guess that he got it down to under 5 degrees (he was shooting for 0, but of course we didn't re-xray for that).

Yes, the 35 degrees was our worst scenario and completely unexpected by everyone, not so much the progression necessarily, but the magnitude of it. We switched to the Rigo-Cheneau because the night time bracing obviously was a bust. We are quite happy with the RC (comfort and results) but the truth is we didn't specifically seek it out--she needed a full-time brace and our local ortho just happens to be one of the few people who does it.

mamandcrm
05-05-2009, 02:22 PM
I realize I keep switching between 35 and 36 degrees as her prior measurement. That's because it was measured by two different doctors at 2 different hospitals who each got a slightly different measurement...

concerned dad
05-05-2009, 03:15 PM
did you just "happen" to check it out of brace with the Providence? I mean, with a 5 degree inbrace measurement you must have felt pretty comfortable. More likely, your orthotist or doctor had experience with this issue.

That 36* must have really thown you for a loop.

I think this may really point to the importance of an out of brace xray. I dont think the Spinecor folks promote out of brace xrays, perhaps because it is a less aggressive brace and if the curve was going to progress you would see it in-brace also. (maybe not to the extent of a true out of brace xray, but I would think it would be detected).

mamandcrm
05-05-2009, 05:24 PM
Our daughter gets an x-ray out of brace every 4-5 months, which is the standard protocol for hard bracing, I think (maybe 6 months if you are stretching it). She gets in-brace x-rays only when she gets a new brace, to check that she is getting a good correction. So the out of brace x-ray for the Providence (which turned up the 35-36 degree curve) was a routine appointment.

StephanieSmiles
05-07-2009, 04:42 PM
Gilly gets an x-ray out of brace every 4-5 months, which is the standard protocol for hard bracing, I think (maybe 6 months if you are stretching it). She gets in-brace x-rays only when she gets a new brace, to check that she is getting a good correction.

I just had a question about this. I get in-brace x-rays every 6 months, and my orthotist said I wouldn't need an out-of-brace x-ray until I'm nearing the end of my bracing. He said there was no point in getting an x-ray out of my brace while I'm still wearing it. If that makes sense.

I'm a little confused. Should my mother and I urge him to take at least a minimal amount of out of brace x-rays to make sure everything is going alright? Then again, I agree with my orothotist in the way that there isn't really a point, because it would take a while for the curves to relax to what they would be when you're out of the brace full time, and that's just time lost. Any help?

concerned dad
05-07-2009, 05:12 PM
Stephanie,
Is there any chance you could get your parents to participate in this forum?
I wouldnt want my daughter getting advice or input from strangers on the internet, at least without me knowing about it.

I'd like to talk with your folks as we apparently received different advice than what your doctors have suggested, my daughter is a similar age to you (14.5) but with a more advanced curve (~38 degrees). I'd be interested to hear their perspective on the bracing issue as we've recently wrestled with making decisions for her treatment.

CD

Pooka1
05-07-2009, 05:53 PM
Gilly gets an x-ray out of brace every 4-5 months, which is the standard protocol for hard bracing, I think (maybe 6 months if you are stretching it). She gets in-brace x-rays only when she gets a new brace, to check that she is getting a good correction. So the out of brace x-ray for the Providence (which turned up the 35-36 degree curve) was a routine appointment.

My daughter wears a Charleston and the protocol is a radiograph every six months.

Because it is s night-time brace, she doesn't need to stop wearing it the night before. The curve would be the same whether she took it off for a few days or wore it the night before the radiograph.

As I understand it, that is NOT the case with 23/7 hard braces and Spinecor where you need to be out of it a few days to get an accurate reading after allowing the body to support itself without relying on the brace as I understand it.

mamandcrm
05-08-2009, 07:17 PM
It may be that the more frequent out of brace x-rays is more appropriate for JIS patients like my daughter--I don't know that, just a guess. The 4-5month x-rays is our ortho's standard op but we also want it right now as we are watching closely--if the bracing does not continue to go as we hope we still have other options open to us that we would not want to allow to go by. There may come a time later when we will stretch the interval out. My understanding regarding the pre-x-ray out of hard brace time is that 24-48hours is desireable. For spinecor maybe longer.

catinhat95
07-30-2009, 12:27 PM
My daughter just had her in-brace x-ray in the Rigo-Cheneau which Luke made for her and she started wearing a month ago. Her curve measures 3 degrees in brace, down from 36 degrees out of brace. Yes, I know, it's in-brace, but it's still awesome.

Hi, can you pm me? I have an appt with Luke this month and would like to ask you some questions, if you don't mind. My email is illianofamily @ gmail .com

Thanks!

mamandcrm
07-30-2009, 07:04 PM
I sent you a PM

S4Sarah
07-30-2009, 09:08 PM
Thank you for sharing your story with us! :) I'm so glad to hear you found that treatment and it helped her! :)
Yes the Schroth method is quite fascinating, in the one picture it corrected a 100 degree curve to a like 40 degree curve I was like WOW!!!!!!!! :eek: It's magic!!! :D
Yes the Cheneau is one hard brace I do agree with a little. It's idea seems way better than the TLSO/Boston brace. I don't think it's offered in the USA though???

bas2101
07-31-2009, 01:12 PM
The Cheneau brace is made in the US by Luke Stikeleather at Orthotic Solutions in Fairfax, Virginia: http://www.orthoticsolutions.com and by Grant Wood in San Mateo, California http://grantwoodortho.com/aboutus.aspx

Both were trained by Dr. Rigo (Barcelona) who designed the Rigo-Cheneau brace.

And, no, I am not an advertiser-my daughter wears a Rigo-Cheneau brace.

bracegirl
08-01-2009, 09:03 PM
I wore a Boston Brace for about a year. In the Boston Brace my curves went up to around 38 degrees. Surgery was discussed. At this time I was being trained in the Schroth method by Dr. Manuel Rigo. He said my curves would progress while wearing the Boston Brace and that I should switch to the Cheneau. My first Cheneau was made by Dr. Rigo while he was teaching other orthotists to make the Cheneau. While in the Cheneau and doing the Schroth method, my curves have gone from 38 and 32 to 25 and 11 out of brace. While I was not completely compliant with the PT, I am a huge advocate of the Cheneau brace. The main separatation between it and many other braces is that the Cheneau brace addresses curves in three dimensions. In addition to the first two dimensions that other braces address and correct the Cheneau addresses the rotation of the spine in a third dimension. The poster above mentioned Luke at Orthotic Solutions and he is amazing. He caters well to people traveling to see him and works around travel schedules. I cannot begin to thank him and Dr. Rigo, because without them I would probably have had to have surgery. I cannot stress enough how beneficial the Cheneau brace is.

mamandcrm
09-29-2009, 05:26 PM
I decided to post my daughter's latest x-ray results here as that's where I've posted before.

She was diagnosed in June '08 at age 7 with a 25 degree curve. She wore a Providence brace for 5 months and her curve increased to 35 degrees. She has been wearing a Rigo-Cheneau brace full-time for 9 months now. Her curve in December was 35 degrees; at 5 month point it was 28 degrees. Today it was 14 degrees. Those are all out of brace measurements (30 hours+). We are so happy!

mamandcrm

Ballet Mom
09-29-2009, 07:06 PM
Hi mamandcrm,

That is such wonderful news! What a wonderful day this is for you...you must be celebrating!

I read back through the thread and I see that you went to Luke S. for the brace. When I was really worried that my daughter was only in a nighttime brace and it wouldn't prove to be enough to hold her fast-moving curve, I called him up and talked to him, thinking that it would be best for her to be in the Cheneau brace during the day and the Charleston Bending brace at night.

He agreed that if it wasn't so expensive to have both braces, it would be the best method for most kids. He asked me for all the measured degrees at all her x-ray appointments, and he basically told me that he felt she was under good brace management and felt that her brace had stopped her curve cold. He didn't think she needed his additional services but he was basically available if I wanted. So I took his advice and didn't go to him! :) (Now seeing your results, I wish I had gone anyway...hee hee).

So I have a good feeling that Luke is not just in this for the money. I also noticed that he is apparently checking out the bracing for the Braist study and has rejected 25% of the bracing efforts, if I remember correctly from the POSNA presentation on the Braist study.

Once again, congrats! :)

mamandcrm
09-29-2009, 07:59 PM
Thanks, Ballet Mom. We have a lot of faith in Luke, and now we have the results too, which I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I didn't know he was doing anything with the BRAIST study. I was talking to him today about how he and/or the Children's Hospital here need to do some kind of study or presentation of data regarding this brace and juveniles because I think there is a population subset for whom it is a very promising alternative.

Ballet Mom
09-29-2009, 08:29 PM
I just went back to the POSNA presentation to make sure what I was saying about Luke was correct, and Lori Dolan just mentions that a Fran and a Luke are on the committee that reviews x-rays to make sure they approve the bracing effort on each child. I just assumed when I heard Luke that Luke S. was the one being mentioned, however, I realize that there could be many other orthotists/doctors named Luke who could be doing it....so I could be very wrong on that.

It would be good for them to do a study on his brace because one of the top-rated orthopedic surgeons we went to (who apparently has decided he doesn't believe in bracing), had never heard of the Cheneau brace when I asked if my daughter could get one of them prescribed and he told me he attends all the meetings. I don't think these European braces are known very well here in the states and they certainly look like they have a lot of promise!

AILEA
09-30-2009, 11:49 AM
First of all, congratulations mamandcrm. Those are amazing results.
I have been reading this forum for years, and today I need to post that since this morning, and 5 years (!!!) before diagnosis, my daughter, who is 18 now, has officially finished with her Cheneau. She started with a 38 curve and at her last x-rays her curve was 25, and Risser 5.
Our Doctor has recommended her to sleep with the brace on for several years, because latest studies have shown that it can help to maintain the curve, but al least, she is brace-free!!:):)

mamandcrm
09-30-2009, 12:07 PM
That's great Ailea--congratulations to your daughter on her successful outcome!

concerned dad
09-30-2009, 12:18 PM
congratulations to both of you: Ailea and Mamandcrm.

swimmergirlsmom
09-30-2009, 11:33 PM
Thank you, Ailea and Mamandcrm, for sharing your great news! And congratulations to your daughters too! :)

jillw
10-01-2009, 10:05 AM
Mamandcrm and Ailea, Wonderful news!!! What were the historical measurements of your daughters' rotations? Has that improved as well? How many hours a day does she wear the brace (or did she in the case of Ailea's daughter)...does she (did she) have enough out of brace time for whatever physical activities?

I've seen pictures of RC braces, but i've never seen pictures of kids wearing the RC brace with their clothes on top...are there any of them on the internet somewhere I wonder? Curious how much it shows, etc.

Jill

mamandcrm
10-01-2009, 11:33 AM
Hi Jill,

Thanks!

Gillian has worn her brace full-time (23/7) for almost all her sports (riding, lacrosse, PE) without much problem. She pretty much only takes it off for swimming, tennis and horseshows. She will continue to wear it full-time for 6 more months then if all still looks good on the xray, switch to part-time wear. We want to have her back in night-time only either at that point or by the x-ray following. If it won't hold her curve, so be it, we will let her progress to the point where she can have VBS (her curve is too small now).

Gillian's brace (which she just had replaced) was pretty stream-lined and not very noticeable under her clothes, provided she wore a shirt long enough to reach the top of her legs. She pretty much wears a wardrobe of leggings and a-line or empire tops. Her new one is bulkier because her orthotist made it bigger to give her some room to grow. She's not thrilled with that so we are going to have it trimmed down a bit but hopefully she only has 6 months left of day-wear anyway.

Re rotation, we never asked what it was though she did/does have rotation. The brace addresses it and it is noticeably less.

Ballet Mom
10-01-2009, 01:13 PM
Wonderful news for you too AILEA!! :)

Swallow'sFlight
10-31-2009, 05:43 AM
Well, my account appears to finally be working. Hurray!

A little history:


When younger daughter was almost 13, we were told by her pediatrician "only about 8" (by visual observation) and "if it's just that, we do nothing but observe".
NO initial X-ray.
Inquiry about bracing brushed off as well.
NOT told to return every 3-4 months for more "observation".
Told "She will soon hit puberty, and won't grow much more then."
Recently finally saw an X-ray taken *a year before that visit* (for another issue); her scoliosis measured at over 10 already then, the pediatrician apparently never noticed.
15-year-old daughter, who grew 2 inches since puberty (most of it very recently), now measures 37T, 41L. :(
Pediatrician is so fired :mad:, daughter is awaiting her Cheneau/RSC brace.
Also pursuing Schroth physical therapy, which I had never heard of until I recently spoke to a friend. Turns out my friend had scoliosis which was quite reduced by Schroth when she was a 14-year-old living in Germany. (Both our ex-pediatrician and an orthopedic surgeon were insistent that "no alternative therapy can reduce scoliosis". I wonder how they'd explain my 30-some-year-old friend...)

Pooka1
10-31-2009, 08:51 AM
(Both our ex-pediatrician and an orthopedic surgeon were insistent that "no alternative therapy can reduce scoliosis". I wonder how they'd explain my 30-some-year-old friend...)
[/LIST]

The same way they would explain the people who claim they were abducted by aliens.

Some people are honestly mistaken. And some lie. This is not news.

Now if your friend has radiographs to PROVE her curve was permanently reduced then we are still left with the fact that some curves do reduce and even resolve on their own. So you still can't say it was the PT.

The doctors and surgeons understand these points. Lay people, not so much.

bas2101
11-01-2009, 07:02 AM
Swallow's Flight-

You are welcome to contact me regarding our favorable experience with Schroth and the Cheneau brace.

bas2101

krbreezin
01-01-2010, 03:36 PM
I just had a question about this. I get in-brace x-rays every 6 months, and my orthotist said I wouldn't need an out-of-brace x-ray until I'm nearing the end of my bracing. He said there was no point in getting an x-ray out of my brace while I'm still wearing it. If that makes sense.

I'm a little confused. Should my mother and I urge him to take at least a minimal amount of out of brace x-rays to make sure everything is going alright? Then again, I agree with my orothotist in the way that there isn't really a point, because it would take a while for the curves to relax to what they would be when you're out of the brace full time, and that's just time lost. Any help?

I'm all for limiting the number of x rays you are subjected to. My daughter has already had two x rays within a three month period, one was at the time of the original diagnosis and the other to be sure the brace was fitted properly 3 months later (which I'm learning probably should have been done sooner). I have requested a prescription from her orthopedist to obtain an MRI when her six month out of brace follow-up approaches. Assuming the MRI is effective, which looks promising to me when viewed at their web site, I will proceed this way with all of her out-of-brace follow-ups. See numbers 3 and 4 at http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/private.php. I must admit, your orthotist's rational makes sense to me, although I would want to do some follow-up on in-brace to be sure the brace was still fitting properly if there was growing involved. Maybe the rational for getting out-of-brace px rays is that patients who are slipping in their dedication to wearing the brace get a wake-up call if the numbers increase. Have to admit, once you've decided that wearing a brace is the route you're going to take, makes sense to me to stay in it as much as possible .......

mamandcrm
01-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Hi krbreezin,

what is the site for the MRI that you are looking at? I'm curious--I've talked with our orthopedist about the various new technologies out there for imaging with less radiation but have not heard of this modified MRI. I would like to run it by her. Thanks,

leahdragonfly
01-01-2010, 07:23 PM
Hi krbreezin,

That is very interesting about the new MRI you linked to in your other post. But I do have to ask, will your insurance co. pay for your dd to have an MRI every 6 months?? When my dd had her full-spine MRI at age 6 (to rule out secondary causes of juvenile scoliosis) my insurance co was billed over $2100, and I had to pay something like 300. Somehow I doubt most insurance cos. will agree to pay for this so frequently, although it sounds like a promising way to reduce radiation exposure.

Take care,

krbreezin
01-02-2010, 12:36 PM
Hi krbreezin,

what is the site for the MRI that you are looking at? I'm curious--I've talked with our orthopedist about the various new technologies out there for imaging with less radiation but have not heard of this modified MRI. I would like to run it by her. Thanks,
Looks like I added the wrong link in my previous post. Check this one out http://www.fonar.com/standup.htm and see numbers 3 and 4. I know that there's one located in Melville, NY..not sure where else their machines may be located. They were very helpful to me when I was searching for something other than x rays and seemed very willing to work with me as far as insurance was concerned. As I mentioned before, we're not scheduled to go for a few months. If anyone tries this procedure before we do, good luck and please advise us as to your experience.

bbrian35
01-11-2010, 10:58 AM
I'm confused. Does it take 6 months, or years? I'd love to see the long term studies. Surely you have them if you claim such definitives ... ?

Anything is preferable to surgery (on that we can agree), but from what I've seen, there is NO long term proof the Cheneau is any more effective than a Boston, Milwaukee, Spinecor, Providence, Charleston, et al.

In fact ... more curiousity on my part ... if Schroth works so well, why do they supplement with a brace?

Regards,
Pam

Do you really not understand why you wouldn't support this therapy with a brace??? You post so many study related threads, I would think even simple logic would help you see why you would support this and many other modes of treatment with a brace. Your knowledge seems very good, I don't know why you don't choose to use it in a more helpful and less confrontational manner. I appreciate the useful info you post, but really!?!

Pooka1
01-11-2010, 05:05 PM
Do you really not understand why you wouldn't support this therapy with a brace??? You post so many study related threads, I would think even simple logic would help you see why you would support this and many other modes of treatment with a brace. Your knowledge seems very good, I don't know why you don't choose to use it in a more helpful and less confrontational manner. I appreciate the useful info you post, but really!?!

It is not clear that Schroth always included brace therapy. Anyone know? I think that might be a recent tacit admission that PT alone won't hold a curve.

Moreover, perhaps you are unaware that certain alternative treatment modalities including Clear and torso rotation do not include bracing. There are probably others out there that claim all you need is PT (and love presumably). Apologies to the Beatles. I'm guessing you think these non-brace treatments are full of ap-cray, yes? :D

hdugger
01-11-2010, 05:51 PM
I think the PT centers (but not CLEAR) recommend bracing for growth spurts. At least, I know that SEAS does and I believe that Schroth does as well.

mamamax
01-11-2010, 06:40 PM
It is not clear that Schroth always included brace therapy. Anyone know? I think that might be a recent tacit admission that PT alone won't hold a curve.


I believe they (Schroth) use bracing with the youngsters - but not necessarily with adults. Although, there are some European braces for adults and maybe they do make exceptions - don't know for sure. Different things for different situations maybe.

Pooka1
01-11-2010, 07:20 PM
I think the PT centers (but not CLEAR) recommend bracing for growth spurts. At least, I know that SEAS does and I believe that Schroth does as well.

The torso rotation crowd (of which the main if not only proponent is now deceased) claim bracing in not necessary in those EXACT words...

The late Dr. Mooney wrote:


In most cases the curvature can be reduced. Brief exercises performed twice a week are adequate. Braces are not necessary.

And I'd like to know exactly when Schroth started to include bracing. I'm guessing it wasn't T minus 90 years.

bbrian35
01-11-2010, 08:46 PM
Wow Pooka-you are absolutely amazing!!!! I should have posted with regard to skeletal maturity. I'm thinking immature skeletal structure plus basic muscle function in response to physiologic stress (ie. exercise)=better to have brace to position skeleton as exercised muscle tissue repairs itself and retains a certain amount of muscle memory. None-the-less, you are certainly not someone who's opinion I value. You are so confrontational that I think you get your kicks here more than you try and help. Nice Job!

AILEA
01-12-2010, 10:53 AM
[QUOTE=Pooka1;89645]It is not clear that Schroth always included brace therapy. Anyone know? I think that might be a recent tacit admission that PT alone won't hold a curve.

Rigo, prescribes bracing, not only Schroth.

Pooka1
01-12-2010, 03:01 PM
[QUOTE=Pooka1;89645]It is not clear that Schroth always included brace therapy. Anyone know? I think that might be a recent tacit admission that PT alone won't hold a curve.

Rigo, prescribes bracing, not only Schroth.

Thanks but my question was a little different... Schroth has been around for ~90 years. When did they include bracing along with the PT?

Nim
01-17-2010, 12:26 PM
I don't know when Schroth started recommending bracing,.....but I do know that in my last visit with our Schroth physical therapist, she said she would only recommened the RegoCheneau brace because the RC brace works to do what the Schroth exercises do......de-rotate the vertebrae that are rotating.

Maybe the other braces have just been pushing the spine back to where it should be without de-rotating the vertebrae. And maybe that is why they did not recommend bracing before, now that the RC has come along, they do?

Pooka1
01-17-2010, 12:37 PM
I don't know when Schroth started recommending bracing,.....but I do know that in my last visit with our Schroth physical therapist, she said she would only recommened the RegoCheneau brace because the RC brace works to do what the Schroth exercises do......de-rotate the vertebrae that are rotating.

Maybe the other braces have just been pushing the spine back to where it should be without de-rotating the vertebrae. And maybe that is why they did not recommend bracing before, now that the RC has come along, they do?

That sounds reasonable.

What has been published that shows the RC is effective?

michael1960
01-20-2010, 03:17 PM
It is very interesting to hear about the Cheneau brace and Schroth method. My daughter (8) just started with the Spinecor brace last November (2009) and just completed the Clear Method 2 week intensive treatment.

I think someone commented that a brace is not recommended by the Clear Method doctors. However, there is one Clear Method doctor in NYC that also does the Spinecor brace. This is why we went to him, to combine the Spinecor brac with the Clear Method.

We started at 25 degrees last June and decided to wait and see. Her curve increased to 35 degrees by mid-October so we decided to move forward with the Spinecor brace (recommended by the orthopedic at Children's hospital). I had never heard of the Cheneau brace. It sounds like there has been some very good results with the Cheneau brace (and maybe combined with the Schroth method).

She measured about 23 degrees in the Spinecor brace (down from 33-35). It sounds like the Cheneau brace would get her to a smaller degree while in the brace. That would be encouraging.

We started the 2 week intensive Clear Method treatment on the 4th (1/4/10) and completed it on the 17th. My daughter was in treatment about 8 hours per day. When we started she measured about 30 degrees out of brace (she had been out of brace for about 48 hours). On the 17th she measured about 23-25 degrees out of brace and about 13-18 degrees in the brace (based on where the measurement is taken).

She will now wear her Spinecor brace 20 hours per day and perform exercises about 2 hours per day. Some of these exercises use weights/equipment that has her spine closer to 5-10 degrees while exercising. Our goal now is to see if we can maintain the improvement. I just wanted to mention that there is at least one Clear Method doctor that does combine the Clear Method with Spinecor bracing. (Dr. Sid in NYC)

Also, during the treatment my daughter was in a scoliosis traction chair that was able to straighten her spine to almost no curve. Based on severity of the curve the traction chair is an option to use at home twice a day, 30 minutes each time. However, after reading this thread it sounds like the cheneau brace could hold the spine almost straight like the traction chair, but do it 23 hours per day. And the cheneau brace is 3 dimensional like the traction chair.

I will probably continue to give the Spinecor and Clear Method a chance this year but the Cheneau brace and Schroth method are sounding very promising. I am new to this forum so please feel free to provide any ideas or suggestions based on the approach we are taking.

Thanks

Bigbluefrog
10-05-2010, 11:01 PM
This same Luke S from Spinal dynamics is the Orthotist that we consulted with. He looked at my dd's x-rays and didn't think cheneau brace would be successful for her double curve. Now I wonder why he would say that?
just wondering why you think only Cheneau brace is de-rotating the spine. The Boston brace does that to.

I sure hope something works for us!

I often wondered if its the brace and PT that is the key.

We researched so many things my head was spinning. I guess we will try this conservative method and pray for a good outcome. In brace she is corrected down to 11 degrees. I find she is struggling with PT and finding time to do it.

EddieMom
10-06-2010, 02:03 PM
Same here. I just started to learn everything about Scoliosis since my duaghter got diagnosed 3 weeks ago. So much information make me confused. It looks to me that RSC brace is very promising. But it looks like that most people here go to orthotist Luke S for RSC brace, since I am at California so Grant Wood would be more convenient. I wonder ii there any difference between their braces? why it says that "Grant Wood is the only authorized orthotist at USA" on the web site? What about Luke S.?

EddieMom
daughter 13 diagnosed 9/15/2010
T 24, L 26

mamandcrm
10-06-2010, 02:21 PM
Hi EddieMom, I am not sure of the answer to that but I think it may be because Grant Wood has the braces manufactured in Europe at whatever site holds the registered trademark for "Rigo-Cheneau System," and does not deviate from the RCS specs. Luke makes and modifies his braces here for each client. He also trained with Dr. Rigo. To me, it's just "verbal-eze".

EddieMom
10-06-2010, 02:28 PM
Thanks mamandcrm for both of your replies ro my question. I will check out the study you mentioned and also ask both Orthotists whether Cheneau is a good choice for my daughter. RSC brace from Grant wood is also fabricated locally, not from Europe any more:). But if they all using the same process and the same database, it should be very similar, I hope.

Thanks.

Pooka1
10-06-2010, 03:28 PM
why it says that "Grant Wood is the only authorized orthotist at USA" on the web site?

Same explanation for why anyone is ever wrong... they are either mistaken or lying. No third choice.

There might even be other certified RSC orthotists for all anyone knows.

Vet everything yourself... don't take someone's word for any of this.