Rolfing vs. Scroth vs. Yoga vs. etc

[trcylynn]

Hi everyone,

In the next month or so I will be with a new health insurance company and making more money. I have looked at my new potential budget and realize I can now afford physical therapy and one other thing.

I have read rolfing (at $150 approx. per session), Scroth (at $1500 or whatever in one weekend), Yoga (at $150 approx. per private session with an instructor specializing in yoga for scoliosis), and pilates (at $30 a class) all help with scoliosis.

I cannot afford them all and do not want to try out each one once and see what I like most. I want to try one method the full time (ex. rolfing 10/13 sessions or a full weekend at a Scroth clinic) and see if it helps.

Any advice/recommendations you can give me would be greatly appreciated. I am very excited for the opportunity to try new things but want to use my money as wisely as possible.

Therefore, if you had to choose just one (either rolfing, private yoga, private pilates, or scroth) which would you choose and why?

Thank you!!

[structural75]

Hi,

It's been awhile since I've visited this forum... but I saw this post and thought I could offer some insight... for what it's worth.

1. Yoga teachers do not receive training or knowledge to safely address musculoskeletal dysfunctions. They get about 30 hours of anatomy education in a typical 200 hour training... the rest of the time is learning poses, modifications, philosophy, history, sequencing and such. We cannot make the mistake of once again creating a generic, one-size-fits-all approach to scoliosis management/treatment and that's what these teachers "specializing in yoga for scoliosis" are doing... As they don't have nearly the education required to understand the complexities of spinal/pelvic mechanics involved and any other potential pathology/condition present with the scoliosis, or causing it.

Don't get me wrong, my wife is a registered yoga teacher among other professions, and although I support yoga as a form of movement and such, she would be the first to agree that unless a yoga teacher also has an education in pt or the like they shouldn't be dealing with such conditions.

Therefore, my point, if you are going to be paying $150 for a private yoga session you're getting ripped off. Unless they are a PT there is no justifiable reason for them to charge that much for their level of education and knowledge... They're just capitalizing off the latest trend and popularity of it.

2. Although pilates has become quite popular lately and many unsubstantiated claims are made about its usefulness, I wouldn't choose this myself. Although the price is much more reasonable for what you're getting, the reality of creating more compression and rigidity into the "core" is questionable at best. The last thing you want to do is start creating immobility (a.k.a. - "stability") in the pelvis and spine. Anyhow, ... I'll spare you from that rant.

3. It seems that although PT would/could be of use... $1500 for one weekend is ridiculous! What is a person going to realistically accomplish in that short amount of time? Why is it so expensive to be shown how to do specific movements, stretching and exercises?

I do believe Scroth has a lot of value, but the drawback to it is that it works to simply manage the curves, which necessitates a life-long daily commitment. It would be useful to at least try to address the potential impetus for the scoliosis (where is the obstacle/restriction/abnormality in development, etc.).

4. That's where Rolfing/Structural Integration might be helpful. Cost is reasonable (although I personally think $150 is a bit high).


Bottom line... To get the most for your money and the level of expertise, go for the Rolfing or PT... Or better yet, go to a PT who is also certified in Rolfing/SI.

Kind Regards and best of luck/wishes with whatever you choose.
Structural

[trcylynn]

Thank you for the insight. I am very hesitant to quick throw down money to anyone that's for sure. How would I go about finding someone that is a PT and rolfer/yoga person/etc? I know I'm hesitant to try rolfing again since the first time was very painful and the person did not seem well educated on scoliosis and what all is involved. I don't like walking into a room when someone is supposed to "treat me" feeling like I have more knowledge about the subject than they do. I would like to find someone that has extensive knowledge in all areas but so far have had no luck.

[swimmergirlsmom]

Hi there.
After much research, we decided to take the Schroth exercise treatment approach for my daughter and the cost was $100 an hour. We have been pleased with the results. We live in San Diego, CA and have traveled up to Palo Alto for two different weekends of Schroth Treatment/training. I think it would be overwhelming to learn everything all in one week. My daughter started her Schroth routine the beginning of February and I highly recommend it as a long term non-surgical approach to helping your scoliosis. You don't just learn physical therapy exercises, but you learn how to approach your "daily living" so that you are always benefiting/improving your spine (like when driving in the car, at the movies, cleaning the house, etc) because there are small movements/changes in posture that you can do that will give you great results.
Please feel free to send me a private message if you would like to discuss in more detail!

[chiroworks]

It saddens me that this forum is very anti-chiropractic. I am not a traditional chiropractor so I will incorporate anything that helps the patient such as fascia/soft tissue work and physical therapy exercises. I strongly feel that joint alignment is an important part of the equation in conjunction with home exercises & stretching such as yoga. Especially with scoliosis patients, you will find weak and short muscles that correlate with joint misalignments.

Graston Technique uses metal instruments unlike other manual techniques to break up the fascia and scar tissue-like adhesions in shortened muscles of a scoliotic curvature. I respect Rolfing and use many of the same principles to get the same results with scoliosis as well as other conditions. I actually document an idiopathic scoliosis patient with reducing back pain as a primary goal but the changes to her scoliosis were very noticable.


Idiopathic Scoliosis Success Story With Before X-ray (http://www.chiroworkscarecenter.com/custom_content/39379_success_stories.html)

You can find more information about Graston Technique on my clinic website (http://www.chiroworkscarecenter.com/custom_content/39659_graston_technique.html) or the official Graston Technique website (http://www.grastontechnique.com/).

The conservative therapy can be anything from yoga, Rolfing or chiropractic. I am mainly informing people that Graston Technique is a great option similar to Rolfing.

Dr. Tony Tsai
ChiroWorks Care Center (http://www.chiroworkscarecenter.com/)

[txmarinemom]

It saddens me that this forum is very anti-chiropractic. I am not a traditional chiropractor so I will incorporate anything that helps the patient such as fascia/soft tissue work and physical therapy exercises. I strongly feel that joint alignment is an important part of the equation in conjunction with home exercises & stretching such as yoga. Especially with scoliosis patients, you will find weak and short muscles that correlate with joint misalignments.

Graston Technique uses metal instruments that I find are more effective than using other manual techniques to break up the fascia and scar tissue-like adhesions in shortened muscles of a scoliotic curvature. I respect Rolfing and use many of the same principles to get the same results with scoliosis as well as other conditions. I actually document an idiopathic scoliosis patient with reducing back pain as a primary goal but the changes to her scoliosis were very noticable. I still need her to get x-rays for the website though. Her daughter actually responded much faster since her scoliosis was caught earlier. I was shocked how few treatments it took for her daughter.

Unfortunately, the before x-ray taken by another chiropractor was very poor quality.
Idiopathic Scoliosis Success Story With Before X-ray (http://www.chiroworkscarecenter.com/custom_content/39379_success_stories.html)

You can find more information about Graston Technique on my clinic website (http://www.chiroworkscarecenter.com/custom_content/39659_graston_technique.html) or the official Graston Technique website (http://www.grastontechnique.com/).

It is my opinion that surgery is such an invasive procedure with significant risks. A surgical procedure may not be reversible either. I just want to urge people to try more conservative therapy before resorting to surgery whenever the patient is not in immediate danger. The conservative therapy can be anything from yoga, Rolfing or chiropractic.

Dr. Tony Tsai
ChiroWorks Care Center (http://www.chiroworkscarecenter.com/)

GET *MY* SURGICAL PHOTOS OFF YOUR $^#% WEBSITE, NOW!

edited: ... actually I broke the link, so no rush now ...

[txmarinemom]

Dr. Tsai, you ignored the notice on my surgical photo .ppt that the presentation is MINE - and requires permission to use in whole or in part. It CERTAINLY was not for use on YOUR website as a scare tactic for what happens when people don't elect your treatment.

I've spoken with my lawyer, and you can expect him to be in touch.

How dare you join this forum and rip off my photos to promote your business!

BTW, I just got off the phone with the California Board of Chiropractic Examiners (Enforcement Division), and they were stunned at what you did. They are mailing paperwork out to me today to file a complaint.

I can easily show identical targets for the presentation link here and your website - and that the target for both is to MY private storage area.

All the screen shots and documentation I have gathered (they encouraged me to send as much as possible) will be submitted with the complaint form. Th CA State Board also just called me back to encourage I report it as a cyber crime, as well (so tomorrow, both the FBI and the Texas Attorney General's office will be getting calls).

Between the criminal charges and the civil suit, you're going to be far too busy - or unable - to practice, Dr. Tsai.

What kind of idiot steals a presentation ONLY posted in this forum and then posts their website *containing* the stolen link?? I'd have never known you were out there using MY photos. Thanks for your post!

Everyone else, sorry, but the photos are offline. I know anything on the Internet is fair game in most cases, but this "professional" stepped WAY out of line.

I am LIVID.

Pam

[trulyaries]

He dunno who he mess wid!!! :eek:

[Qikdraw]

Go get him! :D

And Pam, thanks again for your help. :)

Brad

[mariaf]

Of all the sh** I've seen go down, this was the lowest!


GET HIM is right! (and I KNOW you will, Pam).

[LindaRacine]

It saddens me that this forum is very anti-chiropractic.
If you wonder why this happens, you might want to read your own post, but from the eyes of a patient tired of being ripped off by unethical charlatans.

[Diane BCSW]

Wow, Pam, what a gal! I, of course, read his posting before coming to yours and I thought, "he is actually advertising on our forum". What else can I say about that but how glad I am that you caught it in time.

To offer some EXPERIENCE about the different procedures, I am not familiar with Schroth so won't comment. Early in my adult idiopathic scoliosis, in about 2002, I was seeing a chiropractor, who actually was the first person to tell me that I had scoliosis. I didn't know this and had been to many doctors who either didn't know or didn't say. At my last treatment from him, he said that he was hurting me more than helping me and stopped the treatments. I'd had about 4 or 5 adjustments up to that point. Next, I found a Rolfer in Dallas and at $100 a pop, I went for 20 visits. Although the treatments were pretty rough, after each one, I would be out of pain, for about a day. After the Rolfer, I joined a Pilates class also in Dallas, and attended regular sessions for approximately 6 months, but saw no improvement and it was fairly costly. Less than the Rolfer though. All this time, the pain was getting worse and the "rib hump" was getting bigger and bigger and it hurt if I leaned against something. I was getting to the point that I would do anything to stop the pain from both the scoliosis and the kyphosis. I received a recommendation to go see Dr. Shelokov and had my first screening with the PA in June of 2003. Surgery followed in August.

I know that surgery is a huge step and I have been changed for life as I now have mild and sometimes, severe pain. I use a cane to walk as I tend to bend forward with kyphosis. I no longer can square dance, so my social life has suffered immensely. I know by experience that I will never date again. I have returned to work, which is a desk job, and will work as long as I can. But, you know what? For me, surgery was my only choice. But others have had much more success. I believe that age is the biggest factor in the success or not of surgery. I was 61 when I had the first surgery.

I hope this helps you a little. None of these things you mentioned helped me. I've heard good things about certain exercises that can come only from a surgeon or doctor who is involved with scoliosis. I know of one woman who avoided surgery due to the exercises that given to her by Dr. Shelokov. So that perhaps is another route to consider.

[orchid]

Goodness me, that is shocking :eek: I can't believe that chiropractor could do that, how utterly unethical!!! I agree with Linda, it's not surprising that people are sceptical about non-surgical methods when alternative practitioners do this sort of thing. Pam, I hope your lawyers get him good!!

[mariaf]

Wow, Pam, what a gal! I, of course, read his posting before coming to yours and I thought, "he is actually advertising on our forum".

Hi Diane,

Unfortunately "advertising" happens on our forum far more often than it should. In fact, there is NO place for it on this or any forum and hopefully those in charge will find a way to stop, or at least lessen, these instances. I"m sure it's not an easy task but one worth the effort for sure. People like this quack using Pam's photos without her permission are here for one reason and one reason only - to rip people off. They care NOTHING about members, or their children, with scoliosis.

Best regards,

[txmarinemom]

Not only did this quack steal my photo link from here, he claims he can (at least in the case he cites) "cure" scoliosis in just a few treatments by 50%! The CA Board of Examiners loved that one too when I told them. Even THEY don't believe that.

Judging by the way they reacted to the story, and the fact a different person from the Enforcement Division called me back to encourage I report it to law enforcement as a cyber-crime, I'm hopeful this guy will end up with a new "career".

(... one wearing a headset, asking "Do you want fries with that?")

First Jutkowitz pops on here to advertise, then this dolt. "This forum is anti-chiropractic"? ... yep. For a reason!

And, trcylynn ... I am VERY sorry for hijacking your thread, but I'm also VERY glad "Dr. Tsai" was stupid enough to post in response to your question!

[chiroworks]

Not only did this quack steal my photo link from here, he claims he can (at least in the case he cites) "cure" scoliosis in just a few treatments by 50%! The CA Board of Examiners loved that one too when I told them. Even THEY don't believe that.

Judging by the way they reacted to the story, and the fact a different person from the Enforcement Division called me back to encourage I report it to law enforcement as a cyber-crime, I'm hopeful this guy will end up with a new "career".


I just wanted to apology mainly for angering you which I never intended to do. I took down the link to your powerpoint. I really do try to help people so I hope you understand that before trying to destroy my life and career. I am perfectly willing to cooperate with whatever is legal. You could have just called or email me and I would have acted promptly. I also contacted the Board of Chiropractors to see what was my crime. They said something different but I will just have to wait.

[SandyC]

Wow...You go girl :D Get this quack and get him good :mad:
SandyC

[txmarinemom]

I just wanted to apology mainly for angering you which I never intended to do. I took down the link to your powerpoint. I really do try to help people so I hope you understand that before trying to destroy my life and career. I am perfectly willing to cooperate with whatever is legal. You could have just called or email me and I would have acted promptly. I also contacted the Board of Chiropractors to see what was my crime. They said something different but I will just have to wait.

Excuse me, but *I* broke the link. You knew what you did was wrong/illegal - you just chose to do it *anyway*. Keep your pathetic apology. The result of your actions are *yours* to own, buddy.

You have also been reported to the IC3 (JV between Texas Atty Gen's Office and FBI), and you can expect a civil matter in your lap, as well. I will prosecute and litigate to the fullest extent possible, and you should have thought about the consequences before you put MY body on your website (ignoring the usage instructions) in pictures you stole from HERE.

Contact the Board all you want: I talked to them a few times yesterday, and I will provide them with 28 pages of documentation as your website WAS before you got caught.

And don't you DARE tell me what *I* could have done!

[orchid]

Why did you just go and use this lady's x-rays without asking her? It does seems really, very unethical for you to have done this. If you want to help people then please do everything above board, because not only do you hurt yourself, you hurt other alternative practitioners who might be genuine.

[chiroworks]

Why did you just go and use this lady's x-rays without asking her? It does seems really, very unethical for you to have done this. If you want to help people then please do everything above board, because not only do you hurt yourself, you hurt other alternative practitioners who might be genuine.

Actually, what I did was put a link to her file that she used to post here publically. There was no phone call or fax yesterday so I didn't see her board message until this morning pacific time or I would have done so sooner. The pictures on my website are my patients and they have signed a waiver with permission.

[txmarinemom]

Just so we're all clear here, every slide in my .ppt has a footer (and had that footer when the doctor STOLE it):

"Property of txmarinemom. Any republication of this presentation, in part or whole, is prohibited without explicit permission from texasmarinemom@gmail.com."

What part of that isn't clear? And you want to say all I had to do was call or email YOU?

YOU should have never taken my property you could have ONLY lifted from here! (you so busted yourself in that that link is ONLY listed on this site).

Besides, you used MY body, and MY surgery, as a "this is what can happen to you if you don't let me treat you".

But now it's my deal not to ruin your career for your behavior? You had a choice to do the ethical thing and you chose ... NOT. Now, whatever shakes out, shakes out.

You're not sorry you DID it, you're just sorry you got busted. There's a huge difference in regret and remorse.

[mariaf]

The pictures on my website are my patients and they have signed a waiver with permission.

THAT is what you should have done in Pam's case - asked her permission.

She CHOSE to post the link here - but you tried to use her photos for your own gain without her knowledge or permission, as a scare tactic to lure people to seek treatment with you - that's an entirely different matter and you insult the intelligence of every member here when you try to state that you didn't think you were doing anything wrong.

If I was going to use someone's photo, or even so much as give out their e-mail address, I would have the common courtesy to ASK them first if it was OK. You'll see in my signature there is a link to a VBS awareness video - the person who put it together got the permission of each and every individual before she used anyone's photos. It's seems like pretty basic common-sense stuff to me.

[txmarinemom]

Actually, what I did was put a link to her file that she used to post here publically. There was no phone call or fax yesterday so I didn't see her board message until this morning pacific time or I would have done so sooner. The pictures on my website are my patients and they have signed a waiver with permission.

Keep lying and digging yourself deeper. I'm documenting it all.

I am not a patient of yours, I had a reproduction limit on that .ppt file, and I NEVER gave you permission.

You'd do well to stop posting. Everything you type and/or edit is being added to my files.

[orchid]

Hello Pam, txmarinemom, you're not this chiropractor's patient and it looks like you didn't sign a waiver allowing this guy to use your info, yes?

I'm amazed that this chiropractor did this. You can't just take people's info without permission and use it for your own ends. It's appalling. Chiroworks, what is your explanation for this?

[chiroworks]

What part of that isn't clear? And you want to say all I had to do was call or email YOU?



What I meant was that I would have removed the link yesterday verses today. That link was only about a day old on my website about when I posted to this forum. I have only recently joined this forum.

[txmarinemom]

What I meant was that I would have removed the link yesterday verses today. That link was only about a day old on my website about when I posted to this forum. I have only recently joined this forum.

Your pathetic excuses are falling on deaf ears, and you'll have to face the consequences of your own actions. I'm NOT accepting your BS platitudes.

That was MY body. MY property. And you STOLE it for your own gain without a single word to me.

You only recently joined this forum and joined to STEAL, dude ... so save it for the courts.

[chiroworks]

I understand that you going to sue. I will completely cooperate with the board and the courts decision. As a new chiropractor, my dream was to help people in choosing the healthcare field. Whatever happens I hope to continue helping people in whatever field. I am apologizing again for making you angry knowing fully well you wont accept it.

[Pooka1]

I really do try to help people so I hope you understand that before trying to destroy my life and career.

If you think chiro is helping stop curve progression or even lessens curves then why don't you apply for the million dollar paranormal challenge of the JREF wherein chiro is included. That is to say, you prove chiro works as a cure, you win the million dollars.

For some reason, you chiro types never seem to try to win the money... maybe even YOU and the other chiro types don't believe it works.

And to use Pam's photos as a way to scare folks, some of which will try your quackery and then go on to need surgery, is unconscionable. I mean you do have (many? all?) patients where chiro is a failure and they go on to have surgery, right?

I wish chiro types were required to keep records. This stuff would be gone within a decade.

[Chihuahua Mama]

To be stupid is not a "sin" in and of itself; but to be stupid and offend the wrong person AND BREAK THE LAW? Not such a good idea.

[loves to skate]

This guy really is unbelieveable. The only thing he has apologized for is for making Pam angry, not that he stole something of hers. How dumb can you get? Sally

Quote by Chiroworks (I am apologizing again for making you angry knowing fully well you wont accept it.)

[markjaye]

Hi,

One inexpensive modality you could try would be the Alexander Technique.
Do you know about it? I'm a certified teacher in New York City. Around here, where everything is fairly expensive, a 45 minute session usually costs $75. In other parts of the country it's considerably less. Because it's not well known I give a free trial session. You can't go lower than that!
The Alexander Technique teaches how to move more easily, with less tension and compression.
As far as training goes, a certified teacher of this technique goes through well over 1600 hours of training. Definitely worth a try. You could contact me and I could tell you ways of finding a teacher.
Best of luck to you,
Mark
markjosefsberg.com

[txmarinemom]

Mark,

Nice ad (http://markjosefsberg.com/ leads to a non-paid site - so NOT professional - http://home.earthlink.net/~markjaye/1/). Earthlink ... ewww.

What can you claim your modality actually *does* for a structural scoli curve? This, I HAVE to read ... do tell.

Oh, wait ... I did. http://www.alexandertechnique.com/

Your OWN site says:

"Will It Help Me?

It will help if you:

-Sit at a desk or in front of a computer all day.
-If you've been watching the evening news!
-If you have poor posture, or think you have poor posture.
-If you suffer with neck pain, back pain, stress, headaches, RSI, muscular, joint or breathing problems.
-If you want to present yourself with more ease and confidence in social and business situations.
-If you feel 'stressed out'.
-If you sing or perform on a musical instrument."

Good LORD ... I must have just THOUGHT I had "poor posture" and/or I was "stressed out". Maybe my SRS surgeon was wrong that I needed surgery. I'm SURE you know better.

Pffbbbt, I say; just more snake oil. If anyone wonders why alternative treatments are so unwelcome here, *thanks*, Mark. You illustrated the point nicely (and thanks for bringing up how my pics were stolen by the chiro ... good job!)

[bas2101]

This thread is posted under "Non-Surgical Treatment" where alternative treatment actually is welcome.

[txmarinemom]

bas,

This was tacked on to an old thread where my surgical photos were stolen by a chiro. (before your time)

Read up.

[Ems-Mom]

My 15 year old daughter has about a 40% curve. We initially went to the Clear Institute doc in Hartford - it was good in some ways but too arduous for our family or daughter to handle for more than the 10 months we did it. We then found someone we love who does Schroth and that's been working well.

The exercises are totally customized to her curves so she stays strong and lengthened in the places where the scoliosis would tend to let her get weak and atrophied, her curve has improved a tiny bit, her rotation has improved a little bit more, she's feeling less back pain and she's definitely feeling better about how she looks. And she's got core strength and great abs! As her Mom I feel great that she's got a tool that she can take with her into life to deal with her scoliosis - and the discipline and confidence that develops from improving her own health through exercise. Probably there are a lot of other good methods out there too but this one is time tested, very specific to scoliosis and works for us!

[Ems-Mom]

I just wrote to say that we love Schroth, but I forgot to add that we're about to try Rolfing too, just as an extra thing to keep her loose and limber. If she likes it I'm hoping the two techniques will work well together.

[aksor]

My daughter is 11 and started physio 3 weeks ago and is getting a brace on Wed. Is there a difference between regular physio for scoliosis compared to the scroth treatment?? Or are they both good? She is also active in martial arts....she goes 3 - 4 time a week....does that help?

thank you
Samantha

Hi there.
After much research, we decided to take the Schroth exercise treatment approach for my daughter and the cost was $100 an hour. We have been pleased with the results. We live in San Diego, CA and have traveled up to Palo Alto for two different weekends of Schroth Treatment/training. I think it would be overwhelming to learn everything all in one week. My daughter started her Schroth routine the beginning of February and I highly recommend it as a long term non-surgical approach to helping your scoliosis. You don't just learn physical therapy exercises, but you learn how to approach your "daily living" so that you are always benefiting/improving your spine (like when driving in the car, at the movies, cleaning the house, etc) because there are small movements/changes in posture that you can do that will give you great results.
Please feel free to send me a private message if you would like to discuss in more detail!

[bas2101]

Hi-

I do not know about regular PT for scoliosis, as we have never tried it. Schroth
focuses on specific exercises for specific curves. For example, if she has a right thoracic curve/left lumbar, the exercises for her would avoid anything that would enhance those curves, while working to open up/strengthen the upper left thoracic and right lumbar. If you want more details, call Scoliosis Rehab, or one of the other established Schroth clinics conducted by PT's. They will be able to give you a more detailed answer.

Brooke

[aksor]

Thank you, you answered my question..the exercises she has prescibled now are suposed to strengthen those areas.

thank you, I will look into it some more.....

Samantha


Hi-

I do not know about regular PT for scoliosis, as we have never tried it. Schroth
focuses on specific exercises for specific curves. For example, if she has a right thoracic curve/left lumbar, the exercises for her would avoid anything that would enhance those curves, while working to open up/strengthen the upper left thoracic and right lumbar. If you want more details, call Scoliosis Rehab, or one of the other established Schroth clinics conducted by PT's. They will be able to give you a more detailed answer.

Brooke

[TOscoliosis]

Rather than starting a new thread I thought I would tack on to this one as the discussion I've been having on another thread seems to fit better here.

How do Alexander Technique and Rolfing strengthen muscles?

Let's start with Alexander Technique. Imagine that a student of AT, when moving from standing to sitting and from sitting to standing uses one leg more than another. In my experience each of my scoliotic students exhibit this difficulty to a greater degree than my students without scoliosis.

The theory of Alexander Technique is that through lessons with an AT teacher the scoliotic student may begin to recognize their habit of using one leg more than the other in sitting and standing. With help from the AT teacher they would then learn to sit and stand in a more balanced way, using their legs more evenly. In this case the leg that was bearing more of the weight of the body would begin to bear less, and the leg that was not bearing as much weight would begin to bear more. This would then lead to the less active, weaker leg becoming stronger.

[flerc]

Quick question as an aside: how do you create those bubbles that quote what other posters have written?

In response to your question flerc about the mirror work I do. F. M. Alexander (who developed the Alexander Technique) used mirrors when he was first working on himself. By the time he had become a sought after teacher I don't believe that he was using mirrors much with his students (occasionally but not often). In the school where I was trained we used mirrors to help with our work from time to time but it wasn't a big part of our process.

So my use of mirrors is both a continuation of the original way that Alexander developed his approach, and also something new because some of the activities I do with mirrors are not part of the standard AT work. I think mirrors are a very useful tool for those of us with scoliosis. We can see in a mirror what is really happening in our posture and compare the visual reality with our proprioceptive sense of how we are.

Flerc also posted a question about Alexander Technique vs. Feldenkrais vs. Osteopathy vs. Structural Integration vs. Chiropractic etc. One thing I have noticed, which I think is regrettable, is that practitioners from different disciplines have a habit of criticizing each others' approach. And, unfortunately, practitioners within the same discipline criticize each other too. I would prefer not to do that, and so I tend to avoid comparing my disciplines with others.

I have studied a wide range of movement related disciplines, and received treatment from many different manual therapists. I wouldn't want to get into a debate over which one is better than the others, because it runs the risk of appearing disrespectful. A lot of it depends on what the individual's goals are and who they are working with. Rather I would say that Alexander Technique and Structural Integration suit my needs best.

Alexander Technique is my favourite way of improving my proprioception and my habits of posture and movement. Structural Integration is my favourite way of receiving help for those parts of my body that I have a hard time understanding and improving.

Yes, you're right: Feldenkrais did have lessons with F. M. Alexander, and actually one of my teachers, Rika Cohen has told me that Feldenkrais also had many AT lessons with her.

Toscoliosis, sorry for asking about other disciplines, certainly I only wanted to know about the differences they have (and I don’t understand very well) leading you to choice its as the bests. I must to compare all the non surgical methods, to know which is the best in each of these points

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?11616-solution-s-classification

Alexander is for me in the top in points j), k) and p) .. I have never considered it so much f) but I should.
Certainly in the begining Feldenkrais seemed to me the more respetable of all because is the invention of a scientist (as Rolfing) but then I realized that science has to much to learn about these issues yet and someone like Alexander must to be an intuitive genius.. and. also an artist (musician).. I'm sure that a great sensibilility is needed.
I compare both with Eutonia because I believe are focused in those points.
I compared Rolfing with other therapies focused in b). In fact Ostheopaty is focused in so many other points.. it would have be better the comparation with Myofascal Release.

But of course something as Rolfing is directly working in at least some of the first causes in an integral way to improve the relationship of all those components.. improving then the Structure. Probably in a most indirect way Alexander does the same.. I never realized that may strenght the muscles..
You really have clear concepts and good ideas. Is great to talk with you.!
Pleas think in what I told you about the inclinated plane and vertebral aligment.. I’m sure that the key of the complete knowledge is there.

[TOscoliosis]

Hello flerc and others,
I hope you're enjoying this run up to the end of the year. We've had a very mild Winter so far in Toronto, which I like. Soon I will be shoveling snow again.

I don't mind at all being asked about other disciplines. I just tend to avoid those questions often and wanted to explain why.

Yes, I find it helpful to put things into categories too to help understand them better. I put different treatment approaches for scoliosis into these categories:
1. Proprioception improvement
2. Manual therapy - structural integration, osteopathy, massage therapy, chiropractic, etc.
3. Exercise regime - yoga, tai chi, pilates, Schrott exercises, etc.

In my work on myself (I call it my scoliosis self-care) I make sure that I always have these three things going on.

You have two sections in your classifications and I notice how many categories you have in the first section. Personally I look at the body more as a whole. For example, it is impossible to affect muscles without affecting the joints they cross or the fascia that surrounds and separates them. Many practitioners use the term myo-fascia because they are reluctant to talk about muscles and fascia separately, the relationship between the two tissues being so close. To give another example, as soon as you make a structurally significant change to a vertebra in the spine, the soft tissue structures that attach to that vertebra will necessarily be altered. The reason I like AT and Structural Integration is that they have this holistic view of things.

Here are more thoughts on your question about lying on an inclined plane and the straightening affect it has. I also believe that looking at differences between lying and standing is an important part of diagnosis and treatment. There is a puzzle to be solved, but I do have a hesitation about your theory: It's true that when my scoliosis patients are lying down their bodies usually appear straighter than when they are standing. However, when I palpate their bodies while they are lying down the same asymmetries of shape and tone which were visible in standing are still very much present although in a somewhat disguised form. I don't think that it is enough to attempt to leave their look of equilibrium undisturbed as they come to standing, because too many asymmetries will kick in again as they stand in gravity. Does that make sense? In my opinion things have to be significantly changed, and for me here are two great places to begin:

1. Their proprioception, sense of balance, thinking in movement need improvement.
2. The asymmetries in the shape and tone of their soft tissue structures need to be unwound through holistic, manual therapy.

Many manual therapists share your interest in the difference in a person's structure between lying down and standing. Many work with this sequence in a session: they look at the patient in standing, work with them lying down, then look at them in standing again and see how much of the changes have staid. For some practitioners, this sequence can be repeated many times in one session.

Best!
- TOscoliosis

[flerc]

Tocoscolios, winter, what a lucky!! I hate the hot
As ever all what you say has so much sense for me. I'm so much busy now so I only may copy this link http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?10607-I-m-seriously-evaluating-EDF-for-my-daughter&highlight=edf+flerc when I say why I believe that keeping the spine traight may be good.. probably not necesary with a brace, who knows.. I also want to know what you believe about the exercise I mentioned about fighting against the gravity force in the first post..

See you

[TOscoliosis]

I also want to know what you believe about the exercise I mentioned about fighting against the gravity force in the first post..

See you

I'm sorry,
I'm not sure exactly which exercise you're referring to. Would you mind reposting your description here? I think it was in the other thread, but I didn't find it when I went to have a look just now ...

[flerc]

Sorry, Joshua, I was so short of time these days.. this is the ‘exercise’ I was talking about:

‘It would be also possible to combine EDF with exercise that requires the muscles to fight against the gravity force to keep the spine straight, when some weight is put in the shoulders and a walk is performed with the spine straight (some therapy as Clear do the same?). I think that in this way muscles not only would not be suffering atrophy, but can do an exercise demanding so much the muscles that hold the vertical.
I realized time ago that an amazing force is developed doing some activity, but only for that activity, when I practiced Jiu jitsu and I had to fight with an Olympic weightlifter. I was really afraid, looking her amazing torso, arms, back, but in the floor he had not much force, even I beated him. So I can not imagine other exercise more specific to strength those specific muscles. I think that as jiu jitsu people has an amazing force to fight, weightlifters to lifting weights, swimmers to swim.. people doing these exercise should has an amazing force to keep her back straight.’

My general idea is that it should to be more easy to the spine to improve being in an straight position all the time, that’s why I thought in EDF, but of course to loose all mobility may not be good..
I thought that strengthening the muscles implied in holding the spine should to be good, and applying this principle, this should to be a good exercise for those muscles to perform that task. But of course posture is something more difficult and not all is a matter of tone.

[TOscoliosis]

A couple of thoughts about bracing
As an adult living with scoliosis my preference is to avoid using any health aids that interfere with my mobility. If I break my leg (hopefully not) I won't mind having it in a cast, but for my scoliosis care I would rather use my own resources. This opinion comes from my work with those of my clients who have used physical supports of one form or another. In my experience the more supports a person uses the more stiff their body becomes. Many of our metabolic processes are aided by movement, so to restrict it, even in the hopes of helping a particular issue, seems problematic.

An indirect answer to the question of strengthening:
Our proprioception, our neuro-muscular communication and the shape and tone of our soft tissues and hard tissues are all involved with one another. The body works as a whole system. It seems that there is a vicious cycle going on in a progressing case of (AIS) scoliosis, which affects and is affected by our whole body system, and especially the parts I've just listed. The vicious cycle could be described in various ways. Let's start the cycle from a neurological dysfunction, as this is one of the causes of scoliosis that is currently being put forward by researchers.

A neurological dysfunction renders my proprioception inaccurate in a certain way.
This error of proprioception gives my muscles wrong information about how my body parts are positioned in relation to gravity.
As a result, my muscles slowly develop a habit of working asymmetrically.
As a result of my asymmetrical muscle use, my entire skeleton begins to gradually shift (scoliosis can be seen in the ribs, pelvis and limbs as well as the spine)
As these changes are all gradual we don't notice them in ourselves and even our family often don't notice them until the condition has progressed significantly.
Here is where the vicious cycle gathers momentum:
Our body has slowly adapted to a new status quo. Now our idea of upright is inaccurate and gravity is working on us in a disadvantageous way.
Our habits of moving, which have formed in relation to inaccurate proprioception, exacerbate the asymmetries of our structure (this is something that can be observed in any person with scoliosis). In short:

Inaccurate proprioception - -> asymmetrical muscle activity - -> asymmetrical movement habits - -> asymmetrical skeleton - -> reinforcing of inaccurate proprioception.

Our goal then is to break this vicious cycle and start creating a positive cycle. I am working at the moment on starting to break the cycle with proprioception. My positive cycle is attempting this:

Improve accuracy of proprioception - -> muscle activity is more balanced - -> movement habits are more balanced - -> we can begin to unwind the twists in our skeleton - -> "teaching our proprioception" what balanced really is.

I work on myself with the above goal in mind and these three approaches:
Mirror work (I spend time sitting and standing while adjusting my body to be more symmetrical. I use mirrors to make sure I am making appropriate changes)
Lessons in the Alexander Technique (proprioception help and help in changing my long-held movement habits)
Manual therapy (I go to a structural integration practitioner, but I don't think that's the only kind of manual therapy that can work)

[flerc]

Joshua, thanks for your reply I just saw. I believe you have explained the main scoliosis vicious cycle in great way. Heuter-Volkmann Law is not the only one.. I also thinks in pain and emotional vicious cycles. You really have clear concepts and know how to applied its. It really not surprises me a reduction of your curve.

Sure braces has a very negative side as you said, but keeping the spine straight, I believe should to be fastest way to break the main scoliosis vicious cycle if it would be possible to avoid the side effects that something like a brace has. Some people said me that after surgery, they have troubles to walk, because the postural image that their brain had of their body not corresponded with their new posture. After some time, the postural image was adapted, so it was the outcome of having the spine straight all the time. Also an improvement in tissues should to occur. The Heuter-Volkmann Law should to be reverted or stopped in some way, the stretching in the ligaments and muscles (I think it might to be the worst) and also discs compression because the gravity lateral force applied in the concave side of the spine should to be reduced. I believe that also muscle activity and movement habits should to be more balanced.

I believe that something as the inclined plane http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?11423-Martha-Hawes-improves-her-scoliosis-w-exercise/page7 post #99 should to maintain straight the spine without side effects.. at least no so much as a brace... I’m just thinking now that a great exercise should be trying to keep the spine straight while the plane is standing up.. then remains a long time stand ..and then trying walk!???